It's official - VC is bent!

dropsy

This during a tourney I ws playing where I raised pf with aqo....got reraised all in by a guy that had 500 more than my original bet and called by another....flop was q high I bet the rest of my chips and last player called...other two turned over JJ and I took down a big pot - then this guy, who wasn't even at the table, had this to say -

*****: ridiculous
dropsy: u think?
TexasTea1: nh
*****: This site is FAST becoming the worst for the worst hands winning
*****: and people know that and they make the worst calls on this site as well
*****: But the facts are the facts and the worst hand wins 65-70% of thiis sites showdowns
*****: It is INCREDIBLE
*****: I have been doing running stats for about 3 weeks
*****: case and point right there
*****: Start keeping track folks you will SEE the numbers
*****: I was in an earlier tourney tonight in which to START the game, the worst hand won the first 9 showd
*****: downs and 15 of the first 20
*****: gl all. Just keep your eye on things! Thats all I am sayin

You have been warned

Frankygolucky

nonsense

amp

dropsy wrote:

This during a tourney I ws playing where I raised pf with aqo....got reraised all in by a guy that had 500 more than my original bet and called by another....flop was q high I bet the rest of my chips and last player called...other two turned over JJ and I took down a big pot - then this guy, who wasn't even at the table, had this to say -

*****: ridiculous
dropsy: u think?
TexasTea1: nh
*****: This site is FAST becoming the worst for the worst hands winning
*****: and people know that and they make the worst calls on this site as well
*****: But the facts are the facts and the worst hand wins 65-70% of thiis sites showdowns
*****: It is INCREDIBLE
*****: I have been doing running stats for about 3 weeks
*****: case and point right there
*****: Start keeping track folks you will SEE the numbers
*****: I was in an earlier tourney tonight in which to START the game, the worst hand won the first 9 showd
*****: downs and 15 of the first 20
*****: gl all. Just keep your eye on things! Thats all I am sayin

You have been warned

I'm not great at maths but:

"This guy" != official

I mean, "this guy" keeps saying he can increase my breast size dramatically and that if I give him just 1000 dollars I'll receive 60% of a gold mine in Nigeria FREE!

Samba

I want to see stats from Tribecca, they should release them and put an end to all this hearsay once and for all.....

Krusty_Clown

Isn't AQo favourite in this situation pre-flop?
From cardplayer, each of the JJ hands are 24.6% to win (49.2%) with your AQo having the other 50.8%. You are very marginally ahead, cos you have overcards, two better flushes, low straight etc..

cormie

Samba, you work for pp, they use tribeca, do you have any inside info on this? It's an obvious profit maker for a company to do this. It gets the good players buying back because it was a bad beat, and it gets the bad players holding onto their cash longer to generate more rake. And then they also think, well I won that much before, I'm going to deposit again and I'll probably keep it this time.

Krusty_Clown

cormie wrote:

Samba, you work for pp, they use tribeca, do you have any inside info on this? It's an obvious profit maker for a company to do this. It gets the good players buying back because it was a bad beat, and it gets the bad players holding onto their cash longer to generate more rake. And then they also think, well I won that much before, I'm going to deposit again and I'll probably keep it this time.

I'll refer the young gentleman to this sound advice.

Poker is a game of skill and luck. Sometimes you have it, and sometimes you don't. When you don't, the typical response is to blame someone else. You can't blame the other poker players, as they're at the mercy of the system, so the obvious choice is the system.

Complaints will nearly always come from those who committed too many of their chips in a gamble, and consequently left the result of a hand up to randomness and fate, and complain when randomness and fate is not going there way. Take the above example, the winner of the hand was statistically most likely to win the hand, and yet someone interpreted this as 'the system' turning against the other players.

I find it amusing that all of the conspiracy theorists continue to play on these sites without fail.

cormie

I'm affiliated with VC. I don't exactly want to discourage people from playing on it. However, this is a profit generator in the way that I described above.

Yes, the above situation was basically a 50/50. Look at this one though. A 999-1 bad beat :eek:

Obviously with the millions these sites do make, there is no real need for this except greed. It may very well be scepticism, and I hope it is but when the company don't even have their shuffling methods published, you begin to wonder.

Fathead

http://www.vcpoker.ie/support/gamesupport/rng.htm

they do have them published see above..

you never hear people who passed there driving test saying its fixed yet ask someone who failed and you'll hear some crap story how the instructor reached his pass quota for the day, Nonsense..... ITS NOT FIXED

I on the other hand just got my brand new top of the range moblie paid for by the freindly folk at VC. was it fixed in my favour cause they new i needed a knew phone...

cormie

This was posted on the linked thread above

I just took a lok at their BMM certification page.

http://www.vcpoker.ie/support/gamesupport/bmmi_certificate.htm

There is a link to check the current validity of the BMM certification, but it doesn't work. I also checked the BMM home page and Victor Chandler is not listed as a client of BMM, so does that mean the certificate is out of date and they are policing themselves? I will email BMM.

He never gave feedback of the email though.

Shortstack

Check this hand out. I figured I was beat but was getting just about the right odds to call.
This is the first time I have ever seen this, although I have seen three out of the four together before both live and online. Strange how it is the guy with the most chips that hits his set !

***** Hand History for Game 1724041980 *****
NL Hold'em Trny:10319453 Level:4 Blinds (25/50) - Saturday, March 12, 09:46:58 EDT 2005
Table Multi-Table(273327) Table #10 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 3: nicks123 ( $620 )
Seat 6: hpslimer ( $2555 )
Seat 7: eassy ( $1440 )
Seat 8: DropDHammeR ( $855 )
Seat 9: Luckyblind ( $1080 )
Seat 10: ZxBrockxZ ( $4915 )
Seat 4: MBC23 ( $1465 )
Seat 5: ilikejeffc ( $1420 )
Seat 1: MojoRisen00 ( $845 )
Trny:10319453 Level:4
Blinds (25/50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Luckyblind [ Qd Qh ]
DropDHammeR folds.
Luckyblind raises [225].
ZxBrockxZ folds.
MojoRisen00 is all-In [845]
nicks123 is all-In [620]
MBC23 is all-In [1465]
ilikejeffc folds.
hpslimer folds.
eassy folds.
Luckyblind is all-In [855]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2c, Kd, 8h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3h ]
** Dealing River ** [ 3s ]
Luckyblind shows [ Qd, Qh ] two pairs, queens and threes.
MojoRisen00 shows [ Js, Jh ] two pairs, jacks and threes.
nicks123 shows [ As, Ac ] two pairs, aces and threes.
MBC23 shows [ Kh, Ks ] a full house, Kings full of threes.
Player nicks123 finished in 319 place
Player MojoRisen00 finished in 318 place
Player Luckyblind finished in 317 place
MBC23 wins 385 chips from side pot #3 with a full house, Kings full of threes.
MBC23 wins 470 chips from side pot #2 with a full house, Kings full of threes.
MBC23 wins 675 chips from side pot #1 with a full house, Kings full of threes.
MBC23 wins 2555 chips from the main pot with a full house, Kings full of threes.
MojoRisen00 has left the table.
nicks123 has left the table.
Luckyblind has left the table.

Of course it isn't rigged but I have never seen this before

dropsy

amp wrote:

I'm not great at maths but:

"This guy" != official

I mean, "this guy" keeps saying he can increase my breast size dramatically and that if I give him just 1000 dollars I'll receive 60% of a gold mine in Nigeria FREE!

I wonder is it the same 'guy' Amp? Sounds like a good deal, 1K for a goldmine - can you post his contact details?

P.S. I hope no-one thought I was being serious in my original post

Samba

Personally I trust the site I have played on VC before and yes there are bad beats but there are ways of avoiding them and sniffing out when you have been out drawn.

I just feel that if they released their stats it would end all this trash talk that goes on on so many forums

Bad players get lucky and build up huge stacks but they lose it all to good players after a few hours.... same as any Casino.......

henbane

Repeat to yourself... "I do not have the right to win every hand I go into ahead." Ten times should do it.

You might want to follow that up with - "If I continue to get my money in when ahead, I will win in the long term"

Bad players play poker. Bad players make bad calls. Bad players sometimes win pots. Bad players like action. If you put your money in as a 999-1 dog often enough, you will win one of those at some stage. Good players sometimes make bad calls. Sometimes good players win pots after making bad calls. Good players often try to explain this away with mutterings about implied odds and stack depth etc.

Samba

I do not have the right to....


I inflicted a horrible beat on 365 a few days ago, dealt K9o on the button, UTG raises to 8 there are 5 callers!!!! How could I pass up those odds?

Flop Comes K99 by the time it gets around to me two stacks are all in for about 180 each.


Insta call to see I am up against AA and AK neither improves and I win a $560 pot.


Hey I had odds to call

Marq

Shortstack wrote:

Of course it isn't rigged but I have never seen this before

Dealing a tournament one night i dealt kings queens jacks tens and nines to five players in one hand. three of them tripped up on the flop. the tens got there on the river.

the kings won with a straight.

I'm rigged.

there is no such thing as a 999-1 shot in hold'em. catching perfect is 989-1

cormie

That's crazy :eek:
Home game once,
player 1: Jc Jd
player 2: Qc Qd
player 3: As Ks

Flop: Js Jh Qs
Turn: 10s
River: Qh

Flopped poker, flopped full house, turn royal flush, river poker. Crazy!


Conclusion to topic, it's an obvious profit generator for poker rooms to rig the shuffle system, but amonst all the speculation, hopefully none of them do it, especially Tribeca!! Tribeca are too big tor rely on a crooked system.

Spiritus

Marq wrote:

Dealing a tournament one night i dealt kings queens jacks tens and nines to five players in one hand. three of them tripped up on the flop. the tens got there on the river.

the kings won with a straight.

I'm rigged.

there is no such thing as a 999-1 shot in hold'em. catching perfect is 989-1

I think you should turn yourself in for an audit.

][cEMAN**

cormie wrote:

Yes, the above situation was basically a 50/50. Look at this one though. A 999-1 bad beat :eek:

Notice what dropped on the flop? 2 7. With the 2 coming out the strong hand.

Coincidence? I think not. I don't bet against 2 7 on the flop unless I have 2 7 in my pocket

Krusty_Clown

Cormie: Conclusion to topic, it's an obvious profit generator for poker rooms to rig the shuffle system. Reason: because It gets the good players buying back because it was a bad beat, and it gets the bad players holding onto their cash longer to generate more rake.

Not too obvious to me. If I were a good player, and I continually suffered bad beats on one site, it's simple, I would change site, and not play on this site any longer. Result: Poker web-site down one customer. Secondly, it doesn't matter who wins the cash for the poker site to collect rake, as long as they keep playing with the cash.

Look at the hand you mentioned: the AKs was less than 5% to win after the flop, but it did go on to win. Did the players in your home game jump up and down crying foul? No? It seems exactly like one of those hands that they would use to rip off the good player.

DeVore

I've requested info from Tribeca regarding actual stats for hands. Lets see what they return.

Poker makes a tiny tiny fraction of PP's over all income (I've seen the info) so why in hell would they jump into bed with someone who was hookie. They're entire operation is based on trust, trust that they will pay you if you win. All bookies are the same.
If there was the slightest whiff of anything untoward, PP would run a mile from it, I can tell you that for a fact!

DeV.

Samba

nods at Dev.

dropsy

PokerStars Game #1351070168: Tournament #6070767, Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2005/03/13 - 17:24:34 (ET)
Table '6070767 1' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: APR2003 (1240 in chips)
Seat 2: Sam El 2003 (1640 in chips)
Seat 3: pasty11 (1680 in chips)
Seat 4: BigChips101 (1450 in chips)
Seat 5: bobbj (1410 in chips)
Seat 6: TruViruz22 (1460 in chips)
Seat 7: Arika (1700 in chips)
Seat 8: cmbn (1480 in chips)
Seat 9: dropsicus (1440 in chips)
cmbn: posts small blind 10
dropsicus: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dropsicus [Qd 9c]
APR2003: calls 20
Sam El 2003: calls 20
pasty11: calls 20
BigChips101: calls 20
bobbj: calls 20
TruViruz22: folds
Arika: folds
cmbn: calls 10
dropsicus: checks
*** FLOP *** [8d Th Jd]
cmbn: bets 100
dropsicus: calls 100
APR2003: folds
Sam El 2003: raises 300 to 400
pasty11: folds
BigChips101: raises 1030 to 1430 and is all-in
bobbj: folds
cmbn: folds
dropsicus: calls 1320 and is all-in
Sam El 2003: calls 1030
*** TURN *** [8d Th Jd] [Qc]
*** RIVER *** [8d Th Jd Qc] [9d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Sam El 2003: shows [Ts 8s] (a straight, Eight to Queen)
BigChips101: shows [8c 8h] (a straight, Eight to Queen)
Sam El 2003 collected 10 from side pot
BigChips101 collected 10 from side pot
dropsicus: shows [Qd 9c] (a straight, Eight to Queen)
Arika said, "that sucks"
dropsicus collected 1500 from main pot
Sam El 2003 collected 1500 from main pot
BigChips101 collected 1500 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4520 Main pot 4500. Side pot 20. | Rake 0
Board [8d Th Jd Qc 9d]
Seat 1: APR2003 folded on the Flop
Seat 2: Sam El 2003 showed [Ts 8s] and won (1510) with a straight, Eight to Queen
Seat 3: pasty11 folded on the Flop
Seat 4: BigChips101 showed [8c 8h] and won (1510) with a straight, Eight to Queen
Seat 5: bobbj folded on the Flop
Seat 6: TruViruz22 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Arika (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: cmbn (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: dropsicus (big blind) showed [Qd 9c] and won (1500) with a straight, Eight to Queen

Frankygolucky

I remember a hand I dealt way back in 1998 in a big comp. AA to Mansour Matloubi ,KK to Mad Marty , QQ to some other Guy .Everyone all-in......AA stood up !

Iago

Marq wrote:

Dealing a tournament one night i dealt kings queens jacks tens and nines to five players in one hand. three of them tripped up on the flop. the tens got there on the river.

the kings won with a straight.

I'm rigged.

there is no such thing as a 999-1 shot in hold'em. catching perfect is 989-1

Now that you mention it I've noticed similar behaviour myself, I was playing in a "real life" tournie on Friday and when we got down to heads-up I was massively outstacked. I went all-in with TT and was called by JJ, first two cards out TT...at the time I was delighted to have won the hand so didn't think about it to much but now that I look back on it, the dealer was probably rigged in my favour

Krusty_Clown

Was playing a $5 stt yesterday, and we were down to the last two players.
I had 17.5K chips, my opponent had 340.

It was all over in about 10 hands. There was absolutely nothing he could do to lose.

1st hand: him AA, me KQo. This was the only hand he played where he was ahead pre-flop (and won 640 chips for his AA). For the next 8 hands (where we both saw the flop), I went in pre-flop with a huge advantage, and lost, again and again. Final hand, he had a marginal chip advantage, I had AQs, he had A4o. Hits a 4. Couldn't believe he won around 8/10 huge under-dog hands. But that's poker. :rolleyes:

On VC, is it possible to get say, the last 10 or 20 hands of a game sent to you?

Rodge

A very similar thing happened me on Party poker last night in a 5$ stt. I had ~7200 blinds of 600. I get AK and raise him all in, he calls the extra 200 with 9 4 and of course he hits trip 4s to beat my flopped two pair. He went on to utterly destroy me, winning every single hand from then on. I got AJo, he gets AJs and hits the flush. Final hand I had 99 he had 10 10.

It has happened the other way though so I'm not too bothered.

ionapaul

'In war, there is no subsitute for victory' - Gen. Douglas MacArthur
'In poker, there is no subsitute for luck' - Unknown

Being lucky is much better than being good! This is as true in life as in poker.

On Friday, my bullets were cracked by DeV's KTo all-in following a 10xx flop. Despite his 6 outs, I was a long way in front post-flop. Sure enough we saw a King on the river.

Because we see more hands per hour playing online (and that's before you factor in multiple tables), no-one should be surprised about seeing the baddest of bad beats online.

okidoki987

Agreed with the comments regarding PP, any sign of anything dodgy and they'd walk away. They are too big a company for something like that.

I gave up playing Party Poker cause I kept getting killed by crap hands.
It just happened too many times and never in my favour.

NickyOD

BMM didn't e-mail me back about VC's RNG certification. The link has since come back to life and their RNG certificate is valid. The link was down for several weeks at one point. I have come across posts questioning the validity of their RNG cert going back as far as October last year. Whether or not VC were operating without a valid cert for a period of time, I don't know.

The simple answer however, to the extraordinary level of bad bead syndrome associated with VC, PP and other sites is this. The majority of players there don't know what they are doing. You have the same chance of getting sucked out on at the low limit tables on VC as you have playing against a feces throwing monkey and that is a fact. They are a complete bunch of ****tards with "the any 2 cards can win* attitude which makes it extrenmely dificult and frustrating for the small number of knowledgable players on the site who play at the lower limits.

Why would VCPoker be rigged or uncertified? After the pacific poker fiasco no respectable poker site would get away with it. It is in the sites best nterest to have an RNG system where the next card cannot be predetermined. If the deck is not shuffled throughout the hand then the RNG which selects the next card from the deck is determined by timing. So, there is no way even for someone on the inside to predict the next card to hit the flop.

If you beleive that poker sites intentionally put big hands up against eachother in order to generate rake then you have not played enough live poker. In the WSOP last year a full house met quads and a straight flush in the same hand. In the IPT supersat in Galway AA met KK twice in the first hour at my table. On both occasions both players slow played them and didn't commit on dangerous flops. If it was me I could have lost my shirt with those Kings. I guess that's why I never saw AA or KK in the whole tournament.

Frankygolucky

Its all in the timing when You play online.All possibilities exist for the flop in the remaining deck.That bad beat you just sufferedmight be Your fault for not hitting the call/raise button whe you felt lucky cause thats when You had the best of it ,not 0.1 second before or after. Or that hand You believe You should havewon if only You had called with that flush draw?Well get this kiddo, your very participation in that hand would have changed everything cause the turn/river would have been dealt at a different point in time which means any other 2 card combination from the remaing deck was possible and the flush might not have got there. Food for thought huh ?

DeVore

Food for thought but irrelevant all the same.

Offline you can introduce similar quantum arguments, the way you mucked your cards affecting the dealers wash, the order you tossed in the hands after a showdown or lest get really nuts, rubbing your nose or flicking your hair affecting the randomisation of the cards similarly to the chaos theories of butterflies wings being able to cause hurricanes in China. All future events are unpredictable yet based on prior events.... perhaps right back to the Big Bang? What does that mean for freedom and self determination?

Someone pass the bong while we collectively mull that one over

DeV.

RexFerator

Amen

Dr_Colossus

I came across the bizarre incident on line of someone in a ring cash game getting AA four hands in a row folled by AK twice. It was the most amazing 6 hands in a row and as far as I can remember they held up every time. It was a long time ago through and everyone at the table was absolutely stunned including the lucky player receiving the cards.

amp

Dealing poker I see many wierd flops. This week I've displayed three 9's, three K's on the flop and AKQs. When I started dealing I was amazed at this but these days I merely raise an eyebrow and smile.

bill_ashmount

NickyOD wrote:

The simple answer however, to the extraordinary level of bad bead syndrome associated with VC, PP and other sites is this. The majority of players there don't know what they are doing. You have the same chance of getting sucked out on at the low limit tables on VC as you have playing against a feces throwing monkey and that is a fact. They are a complete bunch of ****tards with "the any 2 cards can win* attitude which makes it extrenmely dificult and frustrating for the small number of knowledgable players on the site who play at the lower limits.

Surely this is every good players dream, play against bad players the whole time???? In the long run you'll make serious money. FACT!!

NickyOD

bill_ashmount wrote:

Surely this is every good players dream, play against bad players the whole time???? In the long run you'll make serious money. FACT!!

Unforunately not, particularly if like me you play predominantly limit holdem. I make more BBs per hour playing 3/6 and 5/10 than I do at lower stakes, and I'm lucky if I break even playing at 1/2. But even in a NL game playing against morons it just becomes a complete lottery. Playing against players who are somewhere between a faeces throwing monkey and an average player is much more profitable than playing on a table full of idiots. VC is the only place I know where you get 9 players at one table limping in to see flops on a regular basis. If you're a tournament or SnG player its worse again since you have no chiopce but to get involved in so many more coinflips.

Hectorjelly

NickyOD wrote:

Unforunately not, particularly if like me you play predominantly limit holdem. I make more BBs per hour playing 3/6 and 5/10 than I do at lower stakes, and I'm lucky if I break even playing at 1/2. But even in a NL game playing against morons it just becomes a complete lottery. Playing against players who are somewhere between a faeces throwing monkey and an average player is much more profitable than playing on a table full of idiots. VC is the only place I know where you get 9 players at one table limping in to see flops on a regular basis. If you're a tournament or SnG player its worse again since you have no chiopce but to get involved in so many more coinflips.

The reason you cant beat those limits is that you dont make the neccessary adjustments; its a myth that games full of idiots are unbeatable, what happens is a player who happens to win under certain conditions is faced with a different set of game conditions and fails to adjust.

Samba

Took the words out of my mouth hector, while yes there may be more bad beats and outdraws but fact is muppets pay if you play them right.

Especially big stack muppets who are full of confidence after a streak of luck, nothing more satisfying than cleaning out their stack to teach them a good lesson in poker.

NickyOD

Hectorjelly wrote:

The reason you cant beat those limits is that you dont make the neccessary adjustments; its a myth that games full of idiots are unbeatable, what happens is a player who happens to win under certain conditions is faced with a different set of game conditions and fails to adjust.

Ok, reading over my post I look like an idiot now. I'll agree that low buy in NL ring games pay well. I know that from playing the $25 6 max tables on Party, but I'm a pretty accomplished online limit player and there's no way I'd make more BBs per hour at 1/2 than at 5/10 no matter how I played. For one, you lose your ability to steal pots and there's just too many players seeing flops. My ROI% in $20, $30 and $50 SnGs is much higher than in $5 and $10 SnGs, because you end up being forced into taking way more risks with your stack and getting involded in too many 60/40 or 50/50 situations. The middle limits are way easier to beat than low limits in my view.