Progressing from beginner status - how?

OhPinchy

I've been playing some texas holdem online, mainly £5 STTs on betfair, trying to get a feel for it and have done alright so far. I've read Slanskys book on holdem and found it pretty good (any recommendations on other books?).

But I feel I'm at a stage where I'm not going to improve much further until I get a better level of understanding of some things.

I generally play tight enough - I refer to the starting hands table at http://www.learn-texas-holdem.com/texas-holdem-hand-groupings.htm and play groups 1-4 in early position and get looser according to position. But I find when I hit something good I often don't get buyers cos of the rock image.

To counter this I have recently been using a bit of slowplay and then also putting in small bets hoping I get raised, but at least if I get called and my good hand holds up, I'll be getting paid something. If I do this to the river then I hit em hard on the river and often get called as it appears I'm trying to buy the pot. This works nicely for me but I'm all too aware that by giving opponents a cheap card on turn or river I'm exposing myself to gut shots. Whats the best way to balance it in order to get paid and limit exposure to improving hands?

I've seen some people here mention that 72o is a good hand - I thought it was THE worst hand, but since I read these comments I've noticed a good few hands where it would have made a good few quid based on it not being anticipated. Whats the deal - should I play this in late position or what? Any other hands like that that aren't regarded as good hands but will payoff fairly regularly?

Another thing I struggle with is pre-flop raises when I have already called - when should I call and when should I fold?

In relation to my other post on anticipating pocket pairs - I got nailed with this once last night when it was slowplayed after hitting a set on the flop, but I've also managed to back away from what I suspected to be PPs a few times now.....only thing is I've no way of knowing if they had it and I want to strike the balance between not calling against them but also not being regarded as someone who will fold to any decent raise.

I make sure to play a crazy hand every now and then to throw off reads - should I show my cards when I do this to let em know what I'm up to? At the moment I never show when I don't have to.

Went all-in with AKs on first hand last night (I generally don't play the first 5 hands unless I've got something hot cos of the amount of early all-ins online), only earned a poxy 37 chips and a lot of abuse, but I'm pretty sure this move earned me more in the long run as from second hand on I proceeded to play good tight agressive stuff but they all thought I was a maniac and played me accordingly (i.e. their perception overruled the reality) - any ideas for similar ways of throwing off the scent?

henbane

You are not a rock if you're playing the first 4 hand groupings from early position. Bear in mind those hand groupings are for limit hold'em and need some adjustment for NL.

karlh

who are you and what have you done with Enda!?

henbane

karlhoff wrote:

who are you and what have you done with Enda!?

Knowing the theory doesn't mean I apply it.

OhPinchy

whats the main difference in starting hands between limit and no limit? Is it that you can play looser in no limit cos any pot can become huge quite quickly, and that pocket pairs increase in value in no limit?

Rodge

OhPinchy wrote:

Another thing I struggle with is pre-flop raises when I have already called - when should I call and when should I fold?

If you have just called then I take it you havent got a very strong hand. If you are going for rock image then why are you flat calling? If you have a rock image then a raise should take down the pot here and now.

If its a suited connector and you want to see a cheap flop, well you're not going to see it this time round so fold and wait for a better opportunity.

OhPinchy

I'm not going for the rock image as such. Tight agressive would be more profitable. These are relatively low limit games so theres not many experts about and I find that once I win a few hands any sort of a raise scares off the opposition, which is good sometimes but bad when you have best hand and want to get paid.

I generally call with suited connectors in mid-late position and let them go when its raised, though if I'm last and theres many callers of the raise I might call it aswell. Is this right?

I generally raise with anything decent in late/last position.

Whats the story with pocket pairs less than TT? I see people raising with these all the time and making a good bit off them. My reckoning is that against many callers a raise might not be worthwhile due to chance of being beaten, but against fewer callers a raise is the right move - is this right?

henbane

OhPinchy wrote:

whats the main difference in starting hands between limit and no limit? Is it that you can play looser in no limit cos any pot can become huge quite quickly, and that pocket pairs increase in value in no limit?

In no limit if you play looser, you will be leaking more chips if you find yourself calling raises with marginal hands. It's a lot easier to make a large mistake in NL so you should tighten up. If you want to be a rock, only play hands worth a raise in early position.

Pocket pairs lower than JJ/TT are good value due for hitting the set. You and your opponent should have roughly 10 times what the amount to call is. No set, no bet.

OhPinchy wrote:

I'm not going for the rock image as such. Tight agressive would be more profitable.

Playing the first 4 groups in EP is still not tight aggressive. There's too many hands there that can't justify a raise, so it's far more likely you're loose passive. Are you seeing a lot of flops and folding? In general, think about why you're playing a hand in a certain position. Can it stand a raise? If it can stand a raise, why aren't you raising. If you're calling in EP, will this hand play well out of position?

I generally raise with anything decent in late/last position.

Define "anything decent"

OhPinchy

Actually, now that I think about it, I generally fold all but groups 1-3 when I'm in early position, though I often limp in with less on the small blind (probably shouldn't do this due to being in such a bad position right?).

Yes, I do find myself seeing a lot of of flops but folding as I haven't hit. I find myself hoping that I'm not raised by those to my left. So should I say to myself 'If I call this hand and someone raises is the hand good enough to call the raise?'? If the hand is good enough to call the raise, then I should raise not call right? If its not good enough to call the raise, I should fold?

So to make it simple - what hands should I call with and what should I raise with in EP?

The problem I have with raising pre-flop is that if I don't follow it up with a bet on the flop its too obvious I haven't hit. If I'm in late position and no bets I can bet even with nothing (hoping one of my strong overcards hits), but in early position I can't go betting as someone may have hit when I havent.

I have read that good play is to ask yourself 'can I raise?' instead of 'can I call?' but I find I err on the side of caution and just call which is a mistake as it gives me more opponents who can beat me. I'll work on this, but advice on when to call and when to raise would be great.

By 'anything decent' in late/last position, I mean groups 1-4, though in reality I don't always raise with these, but sometimes I do.

Marq

OhPinchy wrote:

Another thing I struggle with is pre-flop raises when I have already called - when should I call and when should I fold?

Call and Limp are both very dirty four letter words. Never calling, only coming into a pot if you are raising, will help you to avoid decisions such as this. Being the agressor in ahand is often enough to win it, and if you're limping and then calling pre-flop raises then you are automatically taking that initiative away from yourself.

I'm of the belief that you should only limp when you plan to reraise, and even then i'm not mad about it as a strategy.

If you often limp and then fold to a raise it's a big drain on your stack.

BigDragon

Q: Is my hand good enough to call a 5xbb raise preflop if I have limped?

A1: No - Fold. Do not limp

A2: Yes - Raise 5xbb.

Be the aggressor.

Five limps saved = 5xBB to bet a marginal hand on a semi-bluff preflop. More profitable in the long run than if you call hoping to hit a flop ( when your let see a flop). IMHO.

Now, if I can just take my own advice........

BrendanB

The difference between starting hands in NL and limit depends to a large extent on how aggressive the game is. Especially in tournaments, drawing hands that are usually made post flop lose value in NL unless the stacks are huge in relation to blinds, or the players are unusually passive. In limit you will generally have odds to call on the flop with open ended straight draws / flush draws, whereas that's not the case in NL. (You shouldn't be the only one calling a pot sized bet with an 8/9 outer unless you think you're likely to get seriously paid off if you hit.)

This means in terms of sklansky, group 3 hands like QJs or JTs are only decent, and very definitely not premium. In general, the value of suitedness in NL is less than that in limit. I know Super System talks about suited connectors as if they're God, but I think this is in the context of a very deep stacked game with huge implied odds.

The other thing to watch is calling raises with hands like AJ/KQ in NL. Unless the raiser is loose you just get in too much trouble.

Pocket pairs play very nicely though, they're much harder to spot than straight/flush draws, and play strongly both multiway (value to hit a set), and heads up if you are in position. (Against a non-pair, you'll be ahead on two thirds of flops).

You also need to look at how much value there'll be to see a flop. If you limp in a limit game and it's raised, it's not that expensive to stay in if others are, whereas in a reasonably aggressive NL game, a good majority of pots will be raised to at least 3xBB, and usually these will be at most 3-handed. You really should not be calling a decent raise that will leave you heads up with something like JT unless there are special circumstances.

I would consider tight in a tough NL game as meaning big pairs, AK and AQ from all positions, loosening up with AJ, AT, KQ and small pairs from mid-pos onwards. That's not to say you can't make raises with other hands, but know that they're effectively bluffs.

While I'm generally against limping, I'll occasionally do it with either a strong hand just to mix it up, or with a marginal hand in a loose game in late for value. If you've made a weak call in EP and it's raised - dump it, don't make another mistake by calling with crap and then hitting something small on the flop out of position.

OhPinchy

I’m still a relative novice (3 months experience) but I feel I’ve come along just ok, not great, but ok. The advice I got in this post – that I was playing too loose in early position, and not being aggressive enough when I have something decent, has helped me greatly. I now ask myself “can I afford to call a 4xBB raise with this hand”? if the answer is yes I ask myself why shouldn’t I be the one doing the raising and generally do just that.

My post flop play needs improving though – I never know what to do if I don’t hit anything on the flop. I’ve created another thread on how to play ‘dangerous’ hands, but what is a good approach to post flop play? I often find that if am pre-flop raiser a bet on the flop same amount as my raise is fairly profitable as there is no indication of the strength of my hand. Sometimes I am called and lose, others I get called and have something (leaving me to raise next time round), but pretty often others fold and I take the pot – good sometimes but frustrating when you have the nuts.

I do the odd bit of check-raising within a round (is that sandbagging?) and slowplaying an entire round when I have the nuts and this has proved profitable, so I'm not too worried about how I play when I hit a hand, my main weakness is what to do when I don't hit a hand - fold or stay in for value?

BrendanB mentions above that tight means playing only a very, very limited range of cards - do you guys really play that tight, cos if I only went in when I get those hands I would be playing less than 10% of hands. In late position I will play (generally call, sometimes raise) with low/medium suited connectors if there are many runners, and against fewer players I will play with Axsuited and Kx suited - whaddya reckon?