Guns Are Bad - Or Are They?

magpie

EDIT/ I think its only fair to note that this thread didn't come out of thin air, but was originally posted as a comment relating to the incident in Glasgow where a 2 year old was shot in the head and killed with a 'sporting' airgun. It isn't a random anti-guns rant, I understand the need for firearms. I just don't see the need for civilians to have them....

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We all know that guns don't kill people, people do. However guns make it considerably easier for the kind of people liable to kill someone (either deliberately or through stupidity) to do so.

I therefore have a very hard time justifying any civilians being allowed to have firearms for recreational purposes. And that includes hunting, in 2005 nobody has to hunt to survive.

Ban them all.

civdef

I therefore have a very hard time justifying any civilians being allowed to have firearms for recreational purposes. And that includes hunting, in 2005 nobody has to hunt to survive.

Ban them all.

That's your view and you're entitled to it, but I think somehow that this particular section of the board won't be too receptive. I'd really be a lot happier if this thread doesn't turn into a "ban/don't ban guns" debate where noone is going to change anyone's views.

E@gle, throughout the UK, with the exception of Northern Ireland, airguns with a muzzle energy of less than 12ft/lbs don't need a licence.

Sparks

magpie wrote:

We all know that guns don't kill people, people do. However guns make it considerably easier for the kind of people liable to kill someone (either deliberately or through stupidity) to do so.

This is certainly true. The thing is, it's far more true of many other things that we allow people to have in this society with far fewer controls. Cars, for one thing. A normal car doing 60mph has a kinetic energy of about 200,000 Joules, an air rifle pellet has about 7 if it's from an ISSF air rifle. Cars kill around 700 people every year in Ireland, and injure nearly ten thousand people every year. That's a damn high toll, no matter how useful cars are. In 160 years of target shooting, noone's been killed. Just because a thing can be used to harm someone doesn't mean it will be. We seem to get along owning crowbars, hammers, power tools, cars, aeroplanes, motorbikes, bricks and kitchen knives reasonably well, and Dublin has the highest number of martial arts training centres in the world (per capita) last I checked, so given the level of concern we put towards safety (and there's a very healthy debate on safety in our sport), I think we're much safer than most of the rest of the things in this life.

I therefore have a very hard time justifying any civilians being allowed to have firearms for recreational purposes. And that includes hunting, in 2005 nobody has to hunt to survive.

In Ireland, yes. In other parts of the world, none too far away I'd add, no. And in some parts of the world, you still need firearms to defend yourself from predators (and some of those parts are what we happily define as being "civilised", like the US).

Ban them all.

That solution is group punishment of nearly a hundred thousand people for the already-illegal act of one person in a foreign country though. That's just unethical (not to mention illegal).


[moderator hat on]
Like civ said, magpie's views won't tally with most of ours, but keep it civilised - read the Charter before replying!

magpie

It is completely disingenuous to compare guns with cars. Sure, lots of people are killed in car accidents, but guns are specifically designed to kill people and/or other animals.

crowbars, hammers, power tools, cars, aeroplanes, motorbikes, bricks and kitchen knives reasonably well, and Dublin has the highest number of martial arts training centres in the world

Yes, but none of these things are specifically designed to kill other living things, whereas guns are. These things also have valid everyday uses, whereas firearms do not.

The difference between 'martial arts' and firearms is that a child/idiot/lunatic cannot simply pick up karate in a day and then use it to kill someone. They can however pick up a gun, point it and pull the trigger.

Sparks

magpie wrote:

It is completely disingenuous to compare guns with cars. Sure, lots of people are killed in car accidents, but guns are specifically designed to kill people and/or other animals.

Some certainly are, but most certainly are not - there are many different types of firearm, and all are designed towards particular purposes, be it hunting, target shooting, military use, or other specialist uses (starting guns, humane dispatchers, etc). You couldn't say my ISSF .22 rifle was designed to kill anything, for example.

Besides, as the families of those killed would agree, the design purpose of the car is somewhat irrelevant compared to the end result. Dead's dead. That's why it's homicide that's illegal, not having an item that could be used for homicide.

These things also have valid everyday uses, whereas firearms do not.

Except that firearms do have valid everyday uses. If you're a farmer, you need to protect your animals from predators (sheep aren't widely known for their skills in self-defence). A shotgun for chasing off dogs and foxes is as much a tool to the farmer as a hoe is to a gardener. Vets also need to use firearms, and not just humane dispatchers (which have to be used within a foot or so as they have no sights). There are members of the DSPCA training in the Dublin Rifle Club because sometimes an animal falls to a spot (such as down a cliff) where they must be put down but can't be reached safely, and a rifle is the only humane tool for the job. And while hunting isn't necessary for survival in Ireland, that doesn't mean it's invalid or a luxury - hunters eat what they kill, and gun clubs are the ones that do the most for conservation in Ireland.

The difference between 'martial arts' and firearms is that a child/idiot/lunatic cannot simply pick up karate in a day and then use it to kill someone. They can however pick up a gun, point it and pull the trigger.

Guns aren't quite that easy to get hold of. Mind you, kitchen knives certainly are, and you can wander into Tesco and get a set of seven razor-sharp, as-used-in-school-attacks-in-Japan knives off the shelf for bargain prices. Or bricks/scythes/slashhooks/hammers/power tools/chainsaws from B&Q or Chadwicks...

magpie

Yes, I realise that airguns have a lower muzzle volicity and are primairly used for target shooting, but they can still be used to shoot someone in the head and are more effective for killing people easily, and at range, than a crowbar or black and decker drill.

A shotgun for chasing off dogs and foxes

Or hillwalkers

Guns aren't quite that easy to get hold of. Mind you, kitchen knives certainly are

If a small child had been killed by a kitchen knife designed specifcally to be thrown a long distance easily and accurately, you might have a point. The difference is kitchen knives have a valid use in every home, guns are apparently required purely for the humane despatch of injured animals. Fine, let vets have access to firearms via a Garda Station.

Nothing in your arguments supports the need for people to have guns so they can go out at the weekend and shoot paper targets for fun.

hunters eat what they kill, and gun clubs are the ones that do the most for conservation in Ireland.

Interesting. Tell me more please.

Sparks

magpie wrote:

Yes, I realise that airguns have a lower muzzle volicity and are primairly used for target shooting, but they can still be used to shoot someone in the head and are more effective for killing people easily, and at range, than a crowbar or black and decker drill.

Er, no, they're not. The reason it was fatal to the toddler in Glasgow was because the poor kid was a toddler - weaker skull, you see. Unless it was an actual hunting air rifle, in which case the so-and-so who had it was meant to have a licence anyway and therefore was in illegal possession of a firearm. Believe me, crowbars are more effective weapons than 99% of air rifles. They don't make Lewis & Clarke type air rifles anymore.

Or hillwalkers

You know, it's illegal (as in a year or so in jail) just to point a firearm at someone in this country (even if it's unloaded or a replica), so if someone has been shot at for hillwalking, it's the Gardai that need to be contacted!

If a small child had been killed by a kitchen knife designed specifcally to be thrown a long distance easily and accurately, you might have a point.

Eight teenagers killed in school knife attack in China.
Alaska School Knife Attack Leaves 4 Injured.
Student Slashes Five Classmates in Indiana
At least eight dead in Osaka school rampage.

Knives are generally not thrown, but that doesn't make them safe.

The difference is kitchen knives have a valid use in every home, guns are apparently required purely for the humane despatch of injured animals. Fine, let vets have access to firearms via a Garda Station.

And farmers chasing dogs from sheep? Or shooting vermin or foxes or pest birds? Or hunters shooting rabbits for the pot? Or the Olympic teams training? Or the stroke rehabilitiation unit that uses air rifles?

(edit: it should be noted that vets already get the firearms used for humane dispatch from Garda stations anyway)

Nothing in your arguments supports the need for people to have guns so they can go out at the weekend and shoot paper targets for fun.

On the contrary. It's called proficiecy. As the DSPCA chaps were telling me, they can go six months without a call to humanely dispatch an animal and then get three in one weekend. In order to do the job humanely, they have to keep their abilities at an acceptable level and they tend to come to target shooting clubs to learn how to do this.
Besides which, target shooting has a 163-year-long history that we can document in this country, without any injuries. Where's your argument that it needs to be shut down?

Interesting. Tell me more please.

The NARGC (the national association of regional game clubs) doesn't just organised wildfowling and hunting; they also restock the species they shoot at through breeding and caring for them, and are responsible for the prevention of several species from becoming extinct and for the reintroduction of several species to Ireland which had become extinct here. The amount of money and volunteer labour involved outstrips every other conservation group going. They're somewhat like a logging company that plants two trees for every one they cut down.

magpie

OK, I stand corrected on the airguns.

And the hillwalkers. What I was actually thinking of was the farmer who has painted in 3 foot high letters at the base of Erris Beg in Connemara 'All Dogs Will be Shot', I'm sure he'd shoot the walkers too given half a chance though.

I know knives aren't safe, but all kinds of guns, even the ones used for sport are derived from projectile weapons designed to kill. Kitchen knives are still kitchen implements, even if you misuse them.

And farmers chasing dogs from sheep? Or shooting vermin or foxes or pest birds?

How often do they really need to do this?

Or hunters shooting rabbits for the pot?

Post armaggedon this may be necessary, but not now.

Or the Olympic teams training? Or the stroke rehabilitiation unit that uses air rifles?

These are pretty minority cases TBH

The amount of money and volunteer labour involved outstrips every other conservation group going.

Well, good for them. I can't fault that.

With regard to the glasgow shooting where did the shooter get the gun? Was he a member of a club? Maybe ownership of airguns should be restricted to club members, and guns should be kept on club premises under 24hr security?

Sparks

magpie wrote:

And the hillwalkers. What I was actually thinking of was the farmer who has painted in 3 foot high letters at the base of Erris Beg in Connemara 'All Dogs Will be Shot', I'm sure he'd shoot the walkers too given half a chance though.

I think that may have more to do with the way that dogs (even pets) can go for sheep...

I know knives aren't safe, but all kinds of guns, even the ones used for sport are derived from projectile weapons designed to kill. Kitchen knives are still kitchen implements, even if you misuse them.

Kitchen knives are derived from daggers, which were edged weapons. Why do you think the knife is to the right-hand-side of the plate in a table setting?

How often do they really need to do this?

Depends on the season, but pretty regularly at some points during the year, especially around now with lambing starting.

Post armaggedon this may be necessary, but not now.

How else do you get rabbit then? Some of us like rabbit you know, it's a healthy alternative to chicken (in older days, it was the chicken of it's day). And not many butchers carry it because noone really farms it - you just go shoot a wild rabbit, they're almost as plentiful as rats in parts of the country.

These are pretty minority cases TBH

That doesn't make them unimportant. As any stroke victim will tell you, or the heads of the Olympic Council of Ireland, the Irish Sports Council or the Minister for Sport, all of whom praised Derek Burnett for his success in olympic trap shooting in Athens and the OCI went so far as to say that sports like target shooting are Ireland's best medal chances for the funding they get.

With regard to the glasgow shooting where did the shooter get the gun? Was he a member of a club? Maybe ownership of airguns should be restricted to club members, and guns should be kept on club premises under 24hr security?

In scotland (and the rest of the UK), airguns with a muzzle energy under 12 ft/lbs have no licences. They're not tracked so we don't know where he got his. And it shouldn't matter - homicide isn't a firearms offence, it's a criminal offence in it's own right with a life sentence. Hopefully the sod gets the maximum as well - he'd been shooting at firefighters before he hit the toddler, for crying out loud. This guy was to legitimate shooters what a joyrider is to a legitimate driver.

Keeping guns on club premises is a bad idea, btw - you're talking about a single target for burglars with a payoff of tens or hundreds of firearms, and garda callout times are generally long enough to break in, get everything, get out and get miles away before the lads in blue make it there from the nearest station (which could be many miles away, don't forget). Plus the cost of 24 hour security is prohibitive. Every target shooter in Ireland will have to have a gun safe or other secured storage in a year or so if the amendments to the Firearms Acts go through (and most would have a gun safe already), so you'd actually be making the situation worse than it is at present.

Jak

Sparks has hit every point well, but just to add my perspective as a shotgun hunter who enjoys the odd day out clay shooting also.

On the conservation issue, individual game hunting syndicates pay considerable amounts to provide for all aspects of their shoot. Between staff and volunteers the degree of work which goes into organising a 'season' each year is quite astounding. Without the NARGC and such syndicates the ecosystems developed and species living therein would likely die out in time.

On the need for hunting issue, you are correct, I don't need to hunt. However, I enjoy it and even from an animal rights perspective, every animal I kill enjoys a far greater quality of life and has a far more sporting chance, than any meat you will purchase in a supermarket. Distance from the facts may allow people to ignore the reality that animals die to produce snacks too.

On the economic side, to remove shooting (primarily hunting but target shooting applies also) is to remove an exceptionally valuable economic industry in rural Ireland. The damage to the economy through loss of direct employment, shooting related tourism and associated retail sale would be very high. I will look to see if I can find you a figure for the estimated value of the Industry at present. However, the harsh truth is that given the Irish history for gun-related injuries and the value of the industry, a ban would not weigh up in any cost-benefit. Just because someone dies does not mean we should ban something.

Finally, on the whole issue of guns make it easy to kill people and should be banned. Sparks has hit most every point perfectly well, though he has not resorted to the somewhat weaker argument of simple enjoyment. So I will - I enjoy shooting and have never hurt anyone in 12 odd years of doing so. My guns are re-licensed every year and are always securely locked away. There are thousands like me, what argument can show that we are a danger to society? Accidents happen and people are fragile, but there are numerous recreational activities which can lead to death which nobody ever mentions.

Strict gun control, supervision, training and serious penalties for inappropriate use are welcome, but an outright ban is a lazy attempt which would stop short of being a solution.

E@gle.

this is gonna be a long argument

Jak

Just to add also on the "designed for killing".

Firstly, edged weapons were designed for killing. Not skinning or eating, but killing. They are multi-purpose tools. We have been omnivores from the start and few animals volunteered for the plate, you had to kill them first.

Secondly, it does not matter if something is "designed" for killing or not. How does this affect licensing and risk? Cars may not be "designed" for killing, but above 30mph they do a fine job of it. Should we adjust all speed limits to below 20mph to eliminate the risk of serious injury? It might save a few lives directly no doubt, however it would cripple our economy as a downside.

We have licensing because we trust people can learn to use things responsibly. When this does not happen it is a criminal act and should be dealt with accordingly.

JAK

The General

Civilians Should Not Be Allowed Guns

Fallschirmjager

to be honest i dont think there is much point in a he said/she said spat as this will turn into...but i hope u will at least try and understand a different point of view-- as i will.

So first a bit of history about gun suuporters and their responses to these outrages when someone dies
....
Unfortunately, for gun supporters, most of these reviews only ever happen when a terrible incident occurs...it nevers happens the rest of the time.. That is why we are so touchy here...noone else normally cares the rest of the time, whic is a good thing..or not, im not too sure! Guns are a case of you either support or you do not and if you do not they have been turned into a bogeyman in Ireland. You are either mentally unstable, some closet republican, some outback type waiting for the communists to invade ala the film Tremors...or perhaps all of the above. The reality is much more boring. Guns are just things and are dependant on the people we exist beside. Mostly there is no problem. Also you will tend to see that the fear of guns is related to the fear of people, the fear of openness and a little fear about themselves. I dont have the fear. I for one, have a view that people are for the very huge part, honest. For instanse, if you got a gun tonight, do u feel the need to shoot someone? i suspect not or never are the more likely answers. In Ireland now, we have thousands and thousands of guns. Have you had a problem personally so far? I suspect not. Have you ever been fired at..i suspect not. The reason: most people are not idiots. Unfortunately for gun supporters in this case, a complete moron murdered a child using a weapon in an illegal way. What we should be looking at is the person who used it, not the tool. Lets be honest, would u trust this person with a kitchen knife? i for one certainly would not. Howver, in the eyes of tabloid red haze screaming...what we should blame is an inanimate object because it easilys terrifies people who are not familiar with them. Most people in Ireland for a lot of ridiculous political reasons have no access or awareness of guns. If you personally were familiar with a pistol or rifle, i can assure you, you would not see or even understand the sheer paranoia around pistols/guns. It would appear as bizzarre as blaming a type of car for an accident....
I for one want to live in an environment that is judged by a reasoned debate and not whats hot in the press. Whats cool to jump on board to and scream and shout about banning one thing or another...
I am not suggesting by the way, you are partaking of this...to be honest, at least you have tried to engage us here in a debate...and for that i thank you...most people will rant and see something simple...ban that and morons will disappear, lets all sleep safely in our beds. unfortunately if that were so, i would support your claim, but sadly that is not the case ..I was born with a family that was familair with guns and have a huge respect for them. I do not fear them, i do not praise them...i see them for what they are ...a tool..like anythign else and a hobby like football or model planes or hill walking.. if you are unfamilair with guns, they can have a nasty hollywood esque feel, one of danger. to be honest you see the same discussion with of all things dogs...but that is another discussion.i also personally think it has a lot to do with a countries maturity or lack thereof and faith in itself and its citizens. A Governemnt should reflect it people. after all the government works for us -- does it not? I honestly dont think we have a government that will pick the best solution for its citizens...it picks for itself.I dont think we should support a government that flashes with the coolest headlines and cosies up to the slick newspaper commentaries. What about the truth?

Let me explain....

On the issue of danger, May i be so bold as to ask what your pasttime is?

i am sure whatever you pick, someone will find a dangerous edge to it..be that a design feature or flaw is irrelevant. I understand what you say about guns and their design but that is the point we are trying to get across here. Just like there are cars that people dont need (Nissan skyline, ferrari, hummer) some people want them, some collect them...should we deny these people those cars as they patently are dangerous.Why would you want one, they attract criminals, thugs?

finally, How many air rifles are in the Uk versus how many are hurt?

that is the reality of cars as well. I know how terrible it is for someone to die, but how many car transits take place per day now versus how many deaths?

Finally, you mention that knives are not designed for killing...well may i suggest you walk down capel street and tell me what u see...

I dont expect you to either understand or support us but you are treading a very slippery path to banning anything that can harm anyone. Imagine one day you login here, and your favourite pasttime is been accused of a death. Would it seen ridiculous, outrageous that they are blaming a THING and not the fool? i hope you will try and see a different point of view. i realise we , as in the pro lobby, are not popular, but that doesnt make us wrong and hopefully we can keep this debate as reasonsed as possible....


regards

ps if you do get a rifle in the post...you need several licenses and u will begin to understand the frustrations here....

magpie

For a man named after the 3rd Reich's Parachute Corps, you make a reasoned argument.

Fallschirmjager

magpie wrote:

For a man named after the 3rd Reich's Parachute Corps, you make a reasoned argument.

MUHAHAHAHAHHAHA

sorry its an old game name.....just never changed it...

magpie

Just as well I don't go by my BF1942 name 'Totenkopf' then....

civdef

Lads, any chance of keeping to the topic?

magpie

I think the relevant cases have been put forward, feel free to lock this sucka down.

oldzed

Im going home to chop up my 5 rifles 2 pistols and shotguns, I have seen the light , Im taking up paper folding . Magpie , go munch a carrot somewhere else , your arguments are lame and uninteresting.
We shoot because be want to and thats the only reason we need.

civdef

Im going home to chop up my 5 rifles 2 pistols and shotguns, I have seen the light , Im taking up paper folding .

Well if you're thinking of chopping them up, I'll take them off your hands for you

Citizen_Erased

My input is going to be quite simple - guns are only as bad as those holding them.

E@gle.

oldzed wrote:

We shoot because be want to and thats the only reason we need.

i agree

E@gle.

E@gle. wrote:

damn right

Stop stirring the sh*t.

Who's to say that I am not a tabloid reporter and can now quote you (as a regular shooter) in a very negative light.

Be as responsible when you are not shooting as when you are. It is comments like that which come back and bite you in the ass.

Grow up

abccormac

OK, I know next to nothing about guns, other than what I have learned from videogames, much like the original poster, I would imagine. I can understand why certain professions require guns (farmers, vets, gamekeepers etc.) I can understand that people enjoy hunting for the pot. I enjoy doing lots of things which aren't strictly neccesary. I can understand target shooting as a challenging and fun sport. What I can't under stand is why people would want to own a gun for any other reason.
Reading back through this forum I have seen several posts about getting license for pistols. I am assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that you are talking about "weapon" type pistols (ie "real" bullets designed to make big holes in people) as opposed to small calibre air pistols designed for target shooting. Why would anybody need one? How does legalising these pistols benefit society? I assume (again, perhaps incorrectly) that it was already legal to use target pistols, so why would anybody want to see guns of this sort more easily available?
Before anybody points it out, I know easy is a relative term, and I can see from other posts that it is still very difficult to get a license for this type of gun.

les45

Yes and why not ban, pubs, and fags ( The ones you smoke) and walking too quickly, funny you mentioned the 3rd reich Magpie ,if my memory is correct the Nazi party baned firearm ownership for private citizens!!and methinks Mr Mugabe has enacted a similar law in Rhodesia ( I cant spell Zimbabwe), , I am off home to chop up my guns( NOT THE 1911 Mike!)

What about fox hunting? No one died from that but it still got banned! Largely due to bad PR spin and people using the "tradition is a right" argument, and not focusing their arguments properly (ie as I said before, argueing in such a way that only Hunters really got it)

I have no real interest in shooting pistols as I shoot mainly target air rifle and the occasional clay/duck shoot - But I can see both points of the thread quite clearly as both have valid points.

People here are getting far too emotional and loosing focus - and thus loosing the argument, every one should take a step back and relax, then write a focused comment rather then quick firing from the hip (Les/Eagle take note!!) or else this is going to descend into a sordid screaming war.

Lets get some proper debate here, rather then childish, knee jerk comments

Irishglockfan

" A fear of weapons is a sign of emotional and sexual insecurity"
Sigmund Freud
An Introduction to psychcology.

GUN CONTROL is being able to use it correctly and hit your target
Says it all.

Guns will be with us in all shapes and forms,and if they are made illegal they will be all the easier to get.Witness drugs,we spend billions trying to wage a war on drugs and what happens ?The stuff is becoming cheaper on the street every week.
A totally gun free country or place is an antiguners wet dream of Utopia.With a very high crime rate.Most of the totally "gunfree"cities in the USA,are appaling crime spots.Washington DC which it is almost impossible to own any type of gun. It has a huge crime problem and guns are available on any"homeboy retail"corner.As has Ireland since 1972.
If you cant,beg borrow or steal one you can make one.I reckon I could put together a submachine gun or pipe shotgun if I had to within 24 hours.How are you going to ban that??Ban water pipe and files and drills??Sure ban them,confiscate them ,if you can.And I will be armed again 48hours later by hook or by crook.Even better as none of the weapons will have any traceback or serial numbers.OH BTW most serial killers when interviewd WILL NOT use a gun as it is too easy to trace.

It is pointless to add anything anymore to this debate.Everything has been said and trying to convince an antigun person that there is a different opinion is like trying to get Osama Bin Ladin to have a pint with George Bush :ro



BTW Les,Hitler never banned firearms to the general German public,just the"undesireables"of 3rd Reich society.By that I meant the persecuted groups as well as criminals.He never had to fear anything from the general pouplation.Proof of this when the Allies enforced total weapon confiscation in post war Germany,they were amazed by how many weapons the civillans handed in,non military stuff too.My Grandfather was a hunter and an officer in the Wehrmacht in WW2.He always stated that this was nonsense.

civdef

OK, it seems obvious this debate isn't going anywhere new.

Is there really any point in having the pro/anti shooting debate on a section devoted to the shooting sports? Maybe politics or after hours might be more appropriate.