Cragg in 'not Irish' shock...

jacksonflam

cragg is representing ireland as a marriage of convienience. it's convienient for him. he's a mercenary, white 'refugee' from the new democratic south africa...many white south africans don't like it now that they don't have everything their own way down there and they are fleeing the land where they once enjoyed the privelges of apartheid...do we want to be complicit in offering those as undeserving as this an escape route? how can we celebrate in any way this tainted travesty.?

Amz

I don't know anyone who is "shocked" at the fact that Cragg wasn't born in Ireland. This isn't a new revelation. Perhaps you can come back to us when you've something constructive to add.

Squirrel

jacksonflam wrote:

cragg is representing ireland as a marriage of convienience. it's convienient for him. he's a mercenary, white 'refugee' from the new democratic south africa...many white south africans don't like it now that they don't have everything their own way down there and they are fleeing the land where they once enjoyed the privelges of apartheid...do we want to be complicit in offering those as undeserving as this an escape route? how can we celebrate in any way this tainted travesty.?

Are you able to prove that it's a "marriage of convenience"?

eirebhoy

FFS, the Eurosport had to make it clear that Cragg was South African born when he was getting his medal a couple of minutes ago. 2 words, Zola Budd!

Tazzle

Tony Cascarino anyone?

jacksonflam

cascarino, lacking the requisite talent level would never have had the opportunity to represent anyone else at international level...cragg has represented south africa and is absolutely free to continue to do so - if he so wished, but suddenly, one day he wakes up and he doesn't...

Amz

Why wasn't this a problem for you last year during the Olympics?

eirebhoy

jacksonflam wrote:

cascarino, lacking the requisite talent level would never have had the opportunity to represent anyone else at international level...cragg has represented south africa and is absolutely free to continue to do so - if he so wished, but suddenly, one day he wakes up and he doesn't...

I honestly don't see how that backs up anything you say. If anything that is what someone would say if they were defending Cragg. Cragg is perfectly free to represent SA but chose us yet Cascarino only chose us because it was the only way he could play international football (and get a few extra quid while he was at it).

jacksonflam

it was a problem for me since before the olympics - since before cragg became the only 'european' in the final...as an illustration of what i regard as the perpetuation of an abhorrent over-privelege based on race i could mention the preponderance of white south african rugby players and some 'english' cricketers who have effortlessly switched nationality since the comfort pillow of apartheid was removed...i just didn't find anywhere to make an issue of it until now...the mass media is complacent and unquestioning of craggs motivation...i'm not...

Sangre

So you're calling him a racist?

Pretty harsh accusation without any proof.

Squirrel

He has lived in Britain and USA, he could have tried for a passport in eiher country if he wanted, but instead chose to compete for Ireland. I see him as Irish and that is how he wants himself to be viewed, so why have you problems with it?

jacksonflam

through a process of elimination and lack of competition for international selection the sentient man could arrive at irish nationality...

ecksor

jacksonflam wrote:

i just didn't find anywhere to make an issue of it until now...

Ok, so basically you have a problem with white sportsmen of south african origin and you've decided that the Athletics forum is a convenient soapbox for you?

the mass media is complacent and unquestioning of craggs motivation...i'm not...

Good for you, but all I see is speculation and rather nasty speculation at that. Also, considering that his motivations don't actually have any effect upon his eligibility then I don't see their relevance. You're quite free not to celebrate his medal if you wish, but baseless accusations have no place on this forum.

Common Sense

In another thread, somebody mentioned the "Granny Rule". What he or she was really talking about was the Irish diaspora. Many of these diaspora, even 2nd or 3rd generation still believe themselves to be Irish. Also, in all likelihood the "Granny" was probably forced to leave Ireland as a result of economic necessity and maybe quite literally to stave off starvation. I know several Irish diaspora whose "Grannies", never losing their love for their homeland, instilled the love of Ireland into their children and grandchildren. Many people outside of sport have always proclaimed their Irishness - for example, Flatley & Butler (Riverdance fame). Why were they in Riverdance? - because they were following a tradition handed down from generation to generation - they learned Irish dancing. Neither of these were born in Ireland but who could deny them the right to call themselves Irish. In different circumstances, many of the Irish diaspora would have been born in Ireland.

jacksonflam

oh jebus, dancin' at the crossroads is it.?
the provenance of craggs irishness i would speculate (because that's all that's available to us when the questions are not asked..) is dubious to say the least...how many of the displaced peasant diaspora emigrated to an imperial stronghold such as south africa..? i would hazard a guess (and that's all i can do in the abscence of statistics..) that the 'irish' of south africa were in the main relocating ascendency and planter stock seeking a more compliant underclass and regarded themselves as thoroughly british...

Mod edit: Deleted for racist comments

ecksor

Ah, so you are speculating and guessing? That's a bit rich considering the statements you are making on here. I'm not prepared to publish that sort of muck on your behalf.

If you are determined to get to the bottom of this then by all means go away and find out some more information and present people with facts and your own interpretation of those facts (minus the baseless accusations) and we'll read them.

I really mean that by the way, especially the "go away" bit.

Your last post combined with
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=479955#post479955
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=488382#post488382
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1089943#post1089943
lead me to conclude that you have little interest in athletics but lots of interest in some political point or agenda of your own. This isn't the forum for it.

Pherekydes

jacksonflam wrote:

many white south africans don't like it now that they don't have everything their own way down there and they are fleeing the land where they once enjoyed the privelges of apartheid

You've overlooked one fact about Cragg: he has represented SA since apartheid fell. He could have continued to do so, but elected not to. In all your baseless supposition you have overlooked some other facts: people cannot elect to be born in a particular place. People cannot alter history before their birth. If your parents (or grandparents) had emigrated to SA before you were born, which country would you elect to represent (assuming you abhorred apartheid)?

I, and presumably a lot of other posters here, are born in Ireland. Some of us take our Irishness for granted. Alistair Cragg has had other options, has thought about them, considered them, and decided to represent Ireland. It's a brave move, and he is deserving of the label 'Irish' as much as anyone born here.

Squirrel

That's exactly the attitude we need in Irish athletics, support everyone in an Irish vest.

Pherekydes

Slightly off topic, but...

Good to see that this Forum has finally taken off!

Squirrel

I know it was, but thanks, and it's thanks to people posting proper news.

The Rooster

His grandparents were born in Ireland, he qualifies to represent Ireland and he wants to represent Ireland - that makes him Irish in my book. We have many other sportsmen and women who represent us who werent actually born here, just like every other country in Europe has.

It was some performance by him. Sheer class. A pity Carroll sacrificed himself, as there was no need whatsoever.

por

jacksonflam wrote:

i could mention the preponderance of white south african rugby players and some 'english' cricketers who have effortlessly switched nationality since the comfort pillow of apartheid was removed.

Since what you call the 'comfort pillow of apartheid' has been removed I would think that more rather than less white South African sports people are competing for their country of birth seeing as they are now allowed to do so on the international stage.

RedBranchKnight

The original post seems a bit unfair on Alistair Cragg.
Personally I will support anybody wearing an Irish vest whether the person is native born anywhere between Antrim and Kerry, whether it’s a newly naturalized citizen from Eastern Europe or West Africa. Or whether part of the diaspora in England or elsewhere.

True we can never be sure with the “granny rule” people. For some the Irish tricolour is a flag of convenience while for others theres an element of affection even loyalty.
Thus for every Cascarino with bogus qualifications there is a Kevin Kilbane or Aiden McGeady brought up in an Irish environment in Preston England or Glasgow Scotland.

Yes I am sure many white “Seth Effrikens” miss the old South African regime and have taken what they call the chicken run to the lands of their fathers and grandfathers. Maybe Cragg is like that. Maybe he isn’t. Seems a bit unfair to judge him negatively.

Anybody really know any athletes politics? Well I suppose we could guess when Ministers of Sport appoint ex athletes to positions such as Chairman of the Sports Council (John Treacy) and to other advisory posts (wasn’t Roy Dooney the marathon runner an appointee of some Minister).

My guess is that athletes wearing the green vest have all kinds of politics. Look thru the team and theres probably Fianna Fail types, Fine Gael types, Labour types, Sinn Fein types and…..perish the thought Progressive Democrats. Complicated enough before you add in the ex South Africans and ex Eritreans.
Complicated enough before you add in the (almost) ex Irish studying American business economics at some God forsaken George Bush loving college in the American mid west.

The original post says the victory of Cragg is a “tainted travesty”. Heady stuff. Still it could have been worse…..Cragg green vest could have been worn by ….oh I dunno……….some drug cheat from Cork.

ZiggyStardust

as the rooster says his grandparents were born in ireland.... also, he already had an irish passport. Not 100% on this but as far as i know he always carried an irish passport.
anyway, there are always sportspeople in all sports representing countries other than that of their birth. Not just football which springs to mind, but what about wilson kipketer representing denmark, martina navratalova and monica seles representing usa. Wasn't there an american sprinter representing GB in the olympics too, and he had never even set foot in the UK before.
So as far as i'm concerned Cragg is Irsih and I'll support him

Squirrel

Cragg has had an Irish passport since he was small, his parents got him 1 in case they would ever have to leave the country in a hurry due to the appartheid being lifted