TG4 in Northern Ireland

Johnny_the_fox

Foreign Affairs : TG4 Reception

The Conference was pleased that all issues relating to increasing TG4 reception had now been addressed, and the two Joint Chairs signed an Intergovernmental Agreement granting authority for TG4 to use a UK frequency to broadcast in Northern Ireland.

The GFA (Good Friday Agreement) kicks in.

SRB

Could someone check this out ?

Ulsterman 1690

Cant see anything (but then Im only using an indoor aerial since our outside one fell down) I am seeing some sort of wierd test signal/lines on Ch62 but thats NVTV's channel

A lot of video's and digiboxes in Belfast use Ch60 so if they do use Ch59 its gonna be fun ?

SRB

Given that Bangor has a relay on 59 as does Newcastle Co. Down, it seems an odd choice of channel.

SRB

It's on already, Channel 59.

culabula

SRB wrote:

It's on already, Channel 59.

Yes, I now have it via a channel search (which did not find it yesterday). Reception is bloody awful though (where the 5 British channels are fine).

Ulsterman 1690

I suspect it will be on the high end of the band though 60 or possibly 64
anyone else want to hazard a wild guess ?

Also I reckon it will be on relatively lowish power with a directonal pattern partially to protect relays/DTT and partly to avoid wasting power into places already served by Claremont or Monaghan

Heres the full relay list (not encluding adjacent, Scottish and Irish transmitters) for Divis BTW

21 Ch4 Divis
21 Ch4 Killowen Mountain
22 BBC 1 Benagh
22 BBC 1 Cushendun
23 DTT Mux A Divis
24 UTV Divis
24 UTV Killowen Mountain
25 UTV Benagh
25 Ch4 Cushendun
26 DTT Mux B Divis
27 BBC 2 Divis
27 BBC 2 Killowen Mountain
28 BBC 2 Benagh
28 BBC 2 Cushendun
29 DTT Mux 1 Divis
31 BBC 1 Divis
31 BBC 1 Killowen Mountain
32 Ch4 Benagh
32 UTV Cushendun
33 DTT Mux 2 Divis
34 DTT Mux D Divis
37 Ch5 Black Mountain
39 BBC 1 Armagh
39 BBC 1 Black Mountain
39 BBC 1 Conlig
39 BBC 1 Draperstown
39 BBC 1 Kilkeel
39 BBC 1 Larne
39 BBC 1 Moneymore
39 BBC 1 Newry South
40 BBC 1 Carnmoney Hill
40 BBC 1 Cushendall
40 BBC 2 Rostrevor Forest
41 Ch4 Black Mountain
41 UTV Newry North
42 Ch4 Armagh
42 Ch4 Conlig
42 Ch4 Draperstown
42 Ch4 Kilkeel
42 Ch4 Larne
42 Ch4 Moneymore
42 Ch4 Newry South
43 UTV Carnmoney Hill
43 UTV Cushendall
44 BBC 1 Banbridge
44 BBC 2 Newry North
45 BBC 2 Armagh
45 BBC 2 Black Mountain
45 BBC 2 Conlig
45 BBC 2 Draperstown
45 BBC 2 Kilkeel
45 BBC 2 Larne
45 BBC 2 Moneymore
45 BBC 2 Newry South
46 UTV Banbridge
46 BBC 2 Carnmoney Hill
46 BBC 2 Cushendall
46 UTV Rostrevor Forest
47 Ch4 Newry North
48 BBC 2 Banbridge
48 BBC 1 Bellair
48 DTT Mux C Divis
48 BBC 1 Rostrevor Forest
48 BBC 1 Whitehead
49 UTV Armagh
49 UTV Black Mountain
49 UTV Conlig
49 UTV Draperstown
49 UTV Kilkeel
49 UTV Larne
49 UTV Moneymore
49 UTV Newry South
50 Ch4 Banbridge
50 Ch4 Carnmoney Hill
50 Ch4 Cushendall
50 Ch4 Rostrevor Forest
51 BBC 1 Newry North
52 UTV Bellair
52 UTV Whitehead
53 Ch4 Leitrim
54 Ch4 Camlough
54 Ch4 Dromore
54 Ch4 Glenariff
54 Ch4 Glynn
54 Ch4 Newtownards
55 BBC 2 Bangor
55 BBC 1 Newcastle (NI)
56 BBC 2 Bellair
56 BBC 2 Whitehead
57 BBC 1 Leitrim
58 BBC 1 Camlough
58 BBC 1 Dromore
58 BBC 1 Glenariff
58 BBC 1 Glynn
58 BBC 1 Newtownards
59 UTV Bangor
59 UTV Newcastle (NI)
60 UTV Leitrim
61 UTV Camlough
61 UTV Dromore
61 UTV Glenariff
61 UTV Glynn
61 UTV Newtownards
62 BBC 1 Bangor
62 NVTV Ballygomartin (Belfast)
62 BBC 2 Newcastle (NI)
63 BBC 2 Leitrim
64 BBC 2 Camlough
64 BBC 2 Dromore
64 BBC 2 Glenariff
64 BBC 2 Glynn
64 BBC 2 Newtownards
65 Ch4 Bangor
65 Ch4 Newcastle (NI)
67 Ch4 Bellair
67 Ch4 Whitehead

telecinesk

wonder what the erp is? has to be very low. And, who "Is" going to watch this?>!

lawhec

It's reported on D****** S** that they are on Channel 59 using a max 1kW erp. I'd say the low ERP is to protect Limavady and Kippure, though it doesn't explain why there's an obvious clash with Bangor.

SRB

Hi Culabula, unless you have a wideband aerial, it will be pretty bad reception as CH 59 is way outside the range of most Belfast Aerials which are group A, though some looking DTT will have upgraded. Anyone with an RTE aerial diplexed in as well, will get a terrible picture as apart from pointing the wrong way, the group C/D will be vertical and pointing to Co. Louth - though they wouldn't need to go looking as they would already have TG4 anyway.

Ulsterman 1690

Maybe there is a null towards Bangor or maybe theyre relying on the fact that Bangor is on different polorisation and precision offset ????

Adds: I was out in the car with a handheld LCD TV Could get all five Divis/Black Mountain channels perfect but not a trace of TG4 other than from Claremont. If theyre only going to run 1Kw if seems a rather pointless exercise unless of course the 1kw is just for test and theyre planning on upping it

culabula

SRB wrote:

Hi Culabula, unless you have a wideband aerial, it will be pretty bad reception as CH 59 is way outside the range of most Belfast Aerials which are group A, though some looking DTT will have upgraded. Anyone with an QUOTE]

Thanks for this: I have just an indoor aerial which I use for DTT with perfect results. The analogue reception of TG4 is just a curio for me as I have it perfectly on SKY anyway (albeit 4:3, grrrrrrrrrr).

Ulsterman 1690

wonder what the erp is? has to be very low

Reportedly 1kw (i.e. 1/500 of the other channels)

And, who "Is" going to watch this

All the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS :rolleyes: of fluent Gaelic speakers who supposedly live in Northern Ireland minus those who are out of range of the flea powered out of group signal and minus those who already have Irish TV anyway

i.e. aproximately three people (and their cat)

Ironically if they put a 1 kilowatt DTT multiplex on Ch 59 from Divis carrying the four Irish channels and perhaps NVTV they might have got a few people tuning in (even me the odd time -I hear they have some good films)

Round Cable

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

Ironically if they put a 1 kilowatt DTT multiplex on Ch 59 from Divis carrying the four Irish channels and perhaps NVTV they might have got a few people tuning in (even me the odd time -I hear they have some good films)

That would be funny, Irish channels on Uk DTT, before an Irish one can be set up.

culabula

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

)

Ironically if they put a 1 kilowatt DTT multiplex on Ch 59 from Divis carrying the four Irish channels and perhaps NVTV they might have got a few people tuning in (even me the odd time -I hear they have some good films)

Actually they have excellent programmes all round -the fillums are great but so is their home-produced output making it consistently the best Irish channel bar none.

Never mind the bandwidth, look at the quality.

Ulsterman 1690

That would be funny, Irish channels on Uk DTT, before an Irish one can be set up

Indeed although I have heard unconfirmed reports of test transmissions in Dublin on Ch 26

Richard

Northern Correspondent wrote:

It's reported on D****** S** that they are on Channel 59 using a max 1kW erp. I'd say the low ERP is to protect Limavady and Kippure, though it doesn't explain why there's an obvious clash with Bangor.

Bangor's power is very low. The transmitter seems only to be designed for the Brunswick Road/Queen's Parade area - i.e. the western bit of the town centre near the seafront. The power is very low; I tried picking Bangor up from a house about a mile from that transmitter and couldn't, so there won't be a problem in Belfast!

The TV aerials near the Bangor transmitter all seem to be pointing at Divis, so I've always wondered what its raison d'etre is.

SRB

yes...but if someone in Bangor wants to pick up TG4 from Divis and throws up a high mast and an amp, they probably will get CCI from the Bangor TX even if it is only running at 3.5w. Likewise the 1KW Newcastle TX can be picked up perfectly as far north as the Cairnshill area of South Belfast, so this will possibly result in CCI for anyone trying to pull in TG4 there.

culabula

It is available on Ch 59 here in Dunmurry.

mrdtv

Whoever decided to put TG4 on Ch 59 analogue from Black Mt at low power needs to be fired or was it, he said tongue in cheek, sabotage by certain obstructionist elements within the NIO?

The Freedom of Information Act should be used to requisition details about the HAAT, ERP and nulls in this low powered candle.

A plethora of problems can be envisaged: Ch 59 is outside the legacy group A aerials for Divis, there is a separation angle between Divis and Black Mt of around 5 degrees, the reported ERP of 1kW is a joke compared even to analogue Ch 5 from Black Mt at 50kW. There are CCI problems with local Newcastle and Bangor repeaters, and the service area will be circumscribed to the North by Limavady and along the East Down coast by Winter Hill which can be picked up there.

Relatives who tuned in last night in Belfast with clear line of sight to both Black Mt and Divis and an outdoor Group A aerial were confronted with a CCIR Grade 3 picture whereas same 30 year old antenna does the business perfectly on BBC/ITV/C5 and all 6 Divis DTT multiplexes including the low power Channel 48 multiplex.

The decision to use analogue for TG4 terrestrial distribution is probably one of the most singularly stupid strategic decisions in years as:

a) It is out of either Group A (legacy Divis) or Group K (Divis analogue/DTT)

b) Its HAAT is bound to be very low to minimise CCI to Limavady and Winter Hill: there will be a null towards Bangor (not that the good old boys on the Gold Coast will be watching TG4!)

c) It is not colocated with Divis which means aerial and ghosting problems

d) Its coverage is severely CCI limited by the local repeaters and in the Northern and South Eastern parts of the Divis service area

e) Anybody with a vertically polarised Clermont Carn aerial will get a terrible TG4 signal from Black Mt..

f) To get a decent analogue TG4 Black Mt signal the punter is going to have to buy a high gain wideband and highly directional antenna like the Fracarro digital gold which will then have to be attenuated because of signal overload on BBC/ITV/Five!

g) With Freeview boxes now on sale for £39 it would have made more sense to press this 1kW frequency into service for a COFDM DVB-T signal. They could then have radiated RTE1, Net2, TV3 and TG4 from Black Mountain or Divis. The economics would have made better sense as TG4's DTT transmission costs would be 25% of the analogue transmission and the others have been keen to extend their coverage for years.

h) The net effect of a DTT RoI rebroadcast service would have been to drive DTT penetration up in the Divis transmission area and accelerate the analogue shutdown.

This is a strategic farce without equal: it preserves the existing television distribution arrangements in the Belfast area in aspic (which may have suited elements in the NIO, NTL as they redistribute RTE1/2 on the cable network, the analogue transmission costs will be higher, and UTV will face less advertising competition on its home turf as TV3 is not carried via cable). Of course the whole project will look extremely shaky if Sky ever manages to secure NI rights for RTE1/2/TV3 which may not happen anytime soon although the reverse is likely when ITV1 goes clear in due course as C4 will follow suit.

The TG4 Ch59 analogue Black Mt transmitter has the dubious distinction of possibly being the last analogue TV transmitter commissioned in Britain or Ireland. It should be shut down straightaway and replaced by a DTT multiplex to provide a high quality TG4 service.

marksi

The decision to broadcast TG4 from a Belfast transmitter was made by politicians devoid of the necessary knowledge to know whether it was technically feasible, which, as you can now see, it is not. Not on analogue anyway.

icdg

Merged all the various TG4/NI related threads - please keep to this one.

Remember also that the launch date for TG4 is Friday...

mickyperry

I can confrim that the channel is broadcasting from Davis on CH59.

I was able to pick up a signal this evening in my mums 22 miles away and the picture was ok.

Not great but watchable. There was a little pattern in the picture but that maybe newcastle (UTV) on 59.

I will be trying mastheads soon but will wait and I see if the power is turned up!

1 mile south off Downpatrick if anyone is intrested.

SRB

Hi Micky, you may find it's actually TG4 from Kippure causing the patterning as it can be received quite well as far as Crossgar Co Down. The amp will only make it worse as it's the same polarity as TG4 Belfast. Anyhow, do let us know how you get on....

Mike 1972

mrdtv

sabotage by certain obstructionist elements within the NIO?

Nine out of ten times these things are down to cockup rather than conspiricy

With Freeview boxes now on sale for £39

£30 if you look hard enough

Anybody with a vertically polarised Clermont Carn aerial will get a terrible TG4 signal from Black Mt..

If they already have a Claremont Carn aerial then why on earth would they need Black mountain ?

Agree 100% with the rest of your post though

mickyperry

Dear SRB,

I know that the signal is coming from Belfast as Crossgar is only 6 miles from me I use to install Aerials in mid Down and I now sell them for a living!

Not to be smart with you!

SRB

Micky, I meant the CCI patterning may be coming from Kippure. As well as Newcastle, TG4 from Kippure is also on 59 and is horizontal, Newcastle is vertical.

Mike 1972

Dont some parts of Co Down blocked from Claremont get RTE from Kippure (TG4 Ch 59) Will the Divis transmissions not spoil their reception and therfore be rather counterproductive since the few people who can get Ch59 from Divis (or is it Black Mountain ?) probably already get TG4 perfectly well on Ch 68 from Claremont ?

Mind you It was always going to be difficult finding space for a new TG4 relay given that the UHF band in the British Isles was originnally only intended to carry 4 services and in Belfast there are already crammed into 46 frequencies

The Four main UK channels
Channel Five
Northern Visions (RSL)
Four Irish Channels
Six digital multiplexes
Overspill from Scotland
loads of relay stations (some like the aforementioned Bangor one only covering a couple of streets) many (probably unnecessairly) using seperate sets of channels
Adjacent transmitters (Limavady, Brougher, Kippure, Monaghan, Holywell Truskmore, Black hill, Cambert Hill, Durris etc etc etc)
Taboo channels (Image, IF and adjacent from all the above)
Satellite decoders, Videos, DVD's, Playstations, Videosenders (legal and otherwise)

mrdtv

Actually the ones that can be received fairly regularly in the higher parts of Belfast are:

Caldbeck, Sandale, Portpatrick, Cambret Hill, not Darvel as that is cochannel with Divis DTT, and Claremont Carn. Not Monaghan or Holywell Hill. Kippure can also be received (VHF) but that is erratic compared to Clermont Carn.

Along the East Down coast you can receive Caldbeck, Sandale, Cambret Hill, various IoM repeaters, Winter Hill, Moel-y-Parc, Llandona, Clermont Carn and Kippure (VHF and UHF).. A very cluttered spectrum.

Along the North Antrim coast you can receive Darvel and Black Hill in parts.

Of course with Sky Digital you can have the whole lot as shortly the remaining big ITV subregions not on satellite will be added...

SRB

Dont some parts of Co Down blocked from Claremont get RTE from Kippure (TG4 Ch 59) Will the Divis transmissions not spoil their reception and therfore be rather counterproductive since the few people who can get Ch59 from Divis (or is it Black Mountain ?) probably already get TG4 perfectly well on Ch 68 from Claremont ?

In a word YES ! Kippure is now totally unwatchable on CH59. TG4 from Three Rock can also be received in parts of East Down, though the signal is variable.