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Stairs fitted in Galway? Any takers?
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01-03-2005 3:32pm#1
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Same question for you, straight flight , or winder. Competent fellow is not good enough here my friend, you need an experienced joiner for this one.
Its probably the single most difficult , joinery product made by any joiner, apart from the fitting aspect of it, which can be equally as tough. A costly product as well ,so you want it right first time. I'd do it my self if I were nearer Dublin.
RooferPete will probably guide you to the best contact here.
Any detail issues....ask
kadman
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I dont know how anyone can give a telephone quote for a stairs with a half landing. How did they get their site dimensions , you could n't possibly quote of a drawing, drawings are drawings , site layout could be some thing entirely different. I assume its a ballpark figure, and when they do site visit, they go ....oooooh....thats extra.
The quote is relative to the requirements you need. Is the half landing part of the stairs. It is possible to install the half landing , and thereby ordering two small straight flights. This has the benefit of smaller flights to install, easier handling in what is often a small area to attic access.
If the landing is part of the stairs, this either involves a single stair install, or building the stairs together in place. If the latter is the case you need to assure yourself that the final assembly of the two flights together, is a solid construction. Ask to see previous work. Unless proper methods are used , it is impossible to get solid newel posts in a final fit.
If I could not get to see previous work fitted similar to yours, I would go elsewhere. Any competent professional would be delighted to brag about his previous work, and only to happy to show you. Photos are no use either, you can get them on the internet.
What materials are you using. Will it come in on regs required. Will it conform to regs when installed. I have heard the argument that an attic stairs , doesn't have to conform to standard regulations , I'd be dubious about that one. Regulations are there to be adhered to.
Anything else , just shout.
kadman
kadman0 -
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boroughmal wrote:Take two long planks and twelve short ones. Lean 2 ladder peices up against the opening at an angle not too upright. Fit all the short planks in between at varying heights. Then cut out an oval pudding basin out of every tread alternating upwards or opposite only one per tread.
This makes a paddle staircase, can be done by any diy idiot and is cheap.
Why pay others
I dont know why I bother.ROFLMAO.
I dont think the self builders would even give this a thought.
And when you 've followed these instructions to the letter, and are patting your self on the back. Ask your self when you climb the stairs, why are you a step short. :eek:
And then ACME will send you a flat pack stair. Start building.
Idiot being the operative word here, no doubt you know more about fish , than you do about stairbuilding.
kadman 0 -
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boroughmal wrote:Now then why do i know more about fish,
I allways was a slippery subject.
What part about save yourself money do you not understand?
The part where you expect to have a decent professional looking stairs, and you end up with a pile of firewood. That part.
I admire your sense of humour, save your self money, forget the stairs, put in a firemens pole instead.
Its a bugger to climb up though :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
kadman 0 -
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lomb wrote:why not just ask a joinery instead of a carpenter. then when they are made u can hire a carpenter, that would b the cheapest way.
i cant see a softwood staircase costing much more than 1500. its not brainsurgery, its only a few cheap strips of timber, and a few cheap, balastrads.
I love these quotes " its not brain surgery ".
No its not, its harder than brain surgery. A stairs is there for all to view, a brain surgeon hides his work with a couple of stitches.
A dogleg stairs, incorporating a winder is probably one of the most difficult timber construction a joiner will ever make. Stairs by there nature, require good numerical skills, trigonometry, good machining skills, and expert construction skills.
If a dogleg stairs with a winder has to be assembled on site, it is a complicated process that requires skill to achieve a satisfactory result. Dont underestimate the brain power required for this job. A measure of a good joiners ability and level of craftsman ship , was often assessed by his skill at stairmaking.
And for all those who think its a piece of cake , give it a go. You will at least learn two useful lessons, skilled craftsman are worth paying, and the smell of chopped up pine is lovely
Why is it the craftspersons on this site realise the complexity of stairmaking, and they make them continuously. And the diyers think they 're simple, and they have 'nt made any.
kadman 0 -
Spot on there is no use talking to some people they know it allkadman wrote:I love these quotes " its not brain surgery ".
No its not, its harder than brain surgery. A stairs is there for all to view, a brain surgeon hides his work with a couple of stitches.
A dogleg stairs, incorporating a winder is probably one of the most difficult timber construction a joiner will ever make. Stairs by there nature, require good numerical skills, trigonometry, good machining skills, and expert construction skills.
If a dogleg stairs with a winder has to be assembled on site, it is a complicated process that requires skill to achieve a satisfactory result. Dont underestimate the brain power required for this job. A measure of a good joiners ability and level of craftsman ship , was often assessed by his skill at stairmaking.
And for all those who think its a piece of cake , give it a go. You will at least learn two useful lessons, skilled craftsman are worth paying, and the smell of chopped up pine is lovely
Why is it the craftspersons on this site realise the complexity of stairmaking, and they make them continuously. And the diyers think they 're simple, and they have 'nt made any.
kadman0 -
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lomb wrote:how about a spiral staircase, persumably these are factory made, easy to install, look good, take up little room?
Spiral staircases are more suitable for aesthetic qualities, than functional purposes. Try getting a double bed up a spiral stairs, or a wardrobe.
But if you must, there are two choices of material here I suppose.
Steel on its own, or timber.
In both instances setting out would be significantly more time consuming for a workshop, than a straight flight. For timber, on account of segmented tread shape, waste would be greater than a standard flight. If you choose to have a closed string spiral, then the curved string would have to be a laminated construction, made up of many boards of 6-8mm thick. A pattern would have to be made first, to curve the laminations around, to glue and set them in place. And you have n't even started marking out yet.
The central pole could either be made from a single timber column, but doubtful you could find a workshop to turn it, you would have to go overseas. Or a steel central pole, and sockets to fit on the pole, and a barrel bolt connection to attach treads and support risers. As you have probably gathered by now, a spiral in timber is not going to be cheaper than a straight flight, due to its complex construction. And the timber hand rail geometry is guaranteed to test the best joiners.
No doubt a steel stairs could be constructed cheaper, and clad it with timber treads, not too sure if you'd be happy with a fella blasting away with a welder and an agle grinder in your house though, and as this is an attic conversion, I doubt if you have the room to install a finished spiral straight out of the workshop..
OOPs...there I go again, making a simple old spiral sound so complicated ...sorry :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
kadman 0 -
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kadman wrote:Spiral staircases are more suitable for aesthetic qualities, than functional purposes. Try getting a double bed up a spiral stairs, or a wardrobe.
But if you must, there are two choices of material here I suppose.
Steel on its own, or timber.
In both instances setting out would be significantly more time consuming for a workshop, than a straight flight. For timber, on account of segmented tread shape, waste would be greater than a standard flight. If you choose to have a closed string spiral, then the curved string would have to be a laminated construction, made up of many boards of 6-8mm thick. A pattern would have to be made first, to curve the laminations around, to glue and set them in place. And you have n't even started marking out yet.
The central pole could either be made from a single timber column, but doubtful you could find a workshop to turn it, you would have to go overseas. Or a steel central pole, and sockets to fit on the pole, and a barrel bolt connection to attach treads and support risers. As you have probably gathered by now, a spiral in timber is not going to be cheaper than a straight flight, due to its complex construction. And the timber hand rail geometry is guaranteed to test the best joiners.
No doubt a steel stairs could be constructed cheaper, and clad it with timber treads, not too sure if you'd be happy with a fella blasting away with a welder and an agle grinder in your house though, and as this is an attic conversion, I doubt if you have the room to install a finished spiral straight out of the workshop..
OOPs...there I go again, making a simple old spiral sound so complicated ...sorry :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
kadman
http://www.spiralshop.co.uk/kits/pages/integra.htm
they do other kits too
http://www.stairsolutions.co.uk/
can get a nice prebuilt metal spiral or double back very aesthetic staircase for 1800 or 1900 delivered.0 -
lomb wrote:http://www.spiralshop.co.uk/kits/pages/integra.htm
they do other kits too
http://www.stairsolutions.co.uk/
can get a nice prebuilt metal spiral or double back very aesthetic staircase for 1800 or 1900 delivered.
Yeah they look well, price wise , not too bad either. Probably cheaper than a standard winder. I'd imagine you would need to have good diy skills for the installation. Definitely a good option though.
Top Marks lomb.
kadman 0 -
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byrne_baby_byrn wrote:Hi guys
Looks like this thread has spiralled (geddit? carpentry joke???) in my absence. I've been out with flu so sorry I missed all the discussions that've been going on.
I haven't got the stairs fitted yet but I've ordered the stairs and I've decided on a carpenter to fit it so keep an eye on the thread and I'll post back in about 2 or 3 weeks whenever it's fitted.
Just a couple of things I've learned over the past few weeks:
1) If you can find a reputable joiners to make AND fit a stairs for you (assuming they won't charge you an arm and a leg) go for it.
2) If you need to look for a carpenter to fit a stairs for you DON'T start in the Golden Pages because it's just too small a job for half these guys and they're normally too busy with bigger multi-house building jobs. Instead you'll have much better luck finding someone through ads in the local newspaper so try ringing around.
3) Don't be afraid to ask plenty of questions - after all, half of them won't be afraid to give you a nonsense quote, I can guanantee that!!!
I can really empathise with Dopey's scenario where you end up getting some RIDICULOUS quote from some of these guys. If it helps, the stairs I've ordered is in two sections - 4 steps, a small landing, and then 8 more steps. The prices were 650 for MDF steps and red deal sides, handrails and ballastrades, or 900 for all red deal. Winders would not add any advantage in my case but if I went with winders it would add an extra 200 to 250 Euro. To fit this stairs (cut out a stud wall in a box room, cut out the opening into the attic, add extra support to the purliners and fit the stairs) most quotes have come in around 450 to 600 Euro. It's basically a days work for two guys.
I completely agree with Kadman's advice on vetting your carpenter thoroughly because a botched job is a complete waste of time and money. I point-blank refuse to be ripped off however. There are TONS of good carpenters out there so spend a bit of time shopping around.
I got quoted 15,500 to convert my attic and nearly bawked!!! I'm hoping to get it all done and dusted for around 6 grand... watch this space!!!
Jay
You seem to have got a very good price on your stairs, and all handrails ect,
I assume you have had the proper size floor joists installed in your attic conversion, and not just floored your existing ceiling joists, your statement " cut opening into the attic," leads me to believe you're only developing your opening into ceiling joists now. Which normally would be only 5-6 inches in depth. insufficient for structural floor. I hope i am wrong in my assumption.
Obviously any purlin support would have to bear down onto a load bearing wall, and not just a joist. You need to be extremely careful about removing structural supports in your attic space, and your new supports should be placed in first. Too many attic conversions have resulted in major refabrication due to careless planning at this stage. Professional advice at this time could save you mega bucks later on.
Good luck
kadman 0 -
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lomb wrote:Do u reakon the attic joists floored with chipboard are incapable of taking light loads? is their any history of someone breaking these?
Well I assume the installation of a 900E stairs suggests that the attic is to be used for living purposes, as opposed to just storage.
The question of structural floor support for general living/bedroom/study area would be the same as a suspended wooden floor, or first floor joists. You would not expect any wooden floor joist to be less than 225x45 for these floors. And the same should reflect itself in an attic situation. Unless you can give additional support from a beam to narrower sized joists.
Your specs from your architect should explain the nominal sizes for your conversion. In general if you are developing your existing attic space for living purposes, in most cases the ceiling joists that you now intend to convert to a floor, would be too small for the purpose of a floor, unless supported from below. There are span tables available to determine appropriate sizes of floor joists.
kadman 0 -
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Dopey wrote:
We asked for a half landing stairs for an attic conversion.
The first joinery is on the North Strand in Dublin and quoted 1200 Euro for a pine stair case. The stair case does not include fitting, spindles or bannisters.
The second place is in Tallaght I believe. They have given an approximate quote of 1500 Euro for a staircase. The price includes fitting, bannisters and spindles. I'm waiting on a brochure to arrive.
I'll keep you all posted.
Dopey
I reckon two good quotes there, hard to beat.
1200 unfitted for a pine staircase, is that pine all round. Hard to beat , if its pine. Is it red or white deal. Red deal is superior, and looks better when finished, and stronger material.
White deal is very plain looking, less resistant to impact indentation, and should be cheaper than a red deal one. Don't assume a pine stairs , looks the same as your pine kitchen , it wont if its white deal. So check and make sure.
1500 euros fitted, is going to be hard to beat, if its an all pine stairs.
Red or white deal, needs to have solid wedges, teak or similar. Proper fitting wedges, not just hitting here or there. A row of triangular support blocks, at each tread, at least 2, hopefully 3. Properly done, no squeaks. A squeaky stairs is an indication of poor construction, nothing else.
What sort of tread size, riser size, did you end up with, and what angle stairs, or do you know.
Certain riser tread sizes, are easier to climb. If you know post 'em, I'd be interested.
As always, do your homework
kadman 0 -
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YAPP wrote:Advise for the DIYer,
Kadman is right (for once) in quering the new 'Attic'/room floor joisting,.
If using the existing ceiling joist as a Floor Joist now, ensure
adequate span sizes; available in that wee blue book in
easons (the builders bible) Homebond book (or IS span tables)
usually a 9"x2" joist is fine (but rare) if less than a 6"x2" if
there already, then insert a new 9"x2" (220x44mm) to one side
of each ceiling joist thus forming a new floor deck, ensure joist
ends have min 50mm bearing on wallplate.
QUOTE]
Hi Yapp,
It seems your attacking me in one sentence, and repeating my advice in another,
But you know what they say about plageurism, it's the greatest show of admiration, :cool: :cool:
Thankyou Yapp :rolleyes:
kadman :cool:0
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