Report: England launch referee complaint

Downtime

Report: England launch referee complaint

01/03/2005

England are reported to be ready to lodge an official complaint to the International Rugby Board over the referee's handling of their 19-13 defeat at Lansdowne Road.

Colin High, the Rugby Football Union's referees' manager, claimed South African Jonathan Kaplan made three major errors which changed the outcome of the match – England's third successive defeat in the RBS 6 Nations Championship.

High, who also insisted the IRB would be "disappointed" with Kaplan's performance, was speaking as England coach Andy Robinson took the unprecedented step of calling former international referees High and Steve Lander to Twickenham for a video analysis of the controversial decisions.

He went on to say there would be repercussions if a referee had produced such a display in England and that it would be unacceptable in a domestic game.

High told the Daily Mail: "The International Rugby Board will be disappointed.

"Jonathan Kaplan is in the top 20 in the world but that wasn't an international performance.

"It would not have been acceptable in the Zurich Premiership.

"If one of my referees had done that, I would have had my backside kicked for making the appointment.

"If any English referee refereed like that in a European match, there would be an inquest. No question about that.

"If someone had performed like that, he would have been pulled from the next game."

High vehemently disputed the decisions to award Martin Corry's early try for England, disallowing another by Mark Cueto and giving Ireland their match-winning try by Brian O'Driscoll.

He told the Daily Mail: "Neither try was a try and the Cueto one which he didn't give was a try. There is no doubt about that.

"He was miles onside, not offside.

"I have had that on excellent authority from a very eminent person who was there and he isn't English.

"The O'Driscoll try should never have been allowed because Shane Horgan, the big Irish centre, was quite clearly offside when he made the tackle which set up the platform for the Irish attack.

"It's all very well the referee saying he didn't see it but he was there to see it. "(Shane) Horgan is six feet four inches tall – the one green injury among all the white jerseys. He stood out like an elephant in a chorus line."

Of course you can contact Colin High at [email]removed[/email] and tell him what you think!!! The thing I think that is most funny is that Steve Lander - probably one of the worst international referees and one of the worst in the Zurich Premiership was consulted!!!

-- Do not encourage spam or you will be smoten.

landser

this is the first time i've read a complaint re the O'Driscoll try. the other complaints are valid enough. but o'driscoll's try was valid. i'll have to look at the vid this pm, but i can't remember horgan being offside, and i don't remember any mention of a problem until now.

f*cking english, such bad losers. i hope that they do bring a complaint and get their asses kicked out. they just can't handle a loss. if ireland do win the grand slam, the english will be incessant in their criticism of our "hollow" victory, and how Kaplan won it for us. God, I can almost hear Guscott talking about it now... I hate him, I hate him, I hate him!!!!!!!

pickarooney

They should have the refs scrap it out, and the winner gets to ref the rest of England's matches - High, Lander, there can be only one.

Downtime

I laughed so hard at his comments I had to mail him.

"Hello Mr High

I read with great interest your comments in the Daily Mail. I am always up for a laugh. Glad to see that the gentlemanly game of rugby is being brought to a new low and becoming more like English soccer.

I do agree with some of your comments, but also feel that someone in your position should support referees rather than slate them. So, Kaplan had a bad game. I think both sides of the water agree somewhat with this. Maybe he should have game to the TMO etc but in hindsight things balanced up. Lewsey didn’t score – I’m sure you have looked at this in slow motion – surely a 5 metre scrum? I agree with this, but looking at the England try –controversy here too. Mr Kaplan is much experienced as you know and was positioned perfectly for the cross field kick. A man with his experience surely should be agreed with in making this decision. I see no mention of the many off the ball tackles by England in your comments that went unnoticed by Mr Kaplan.

The thing I find funniest is the following:

“It would not have been acceptable in the Zurich Premiership.

"If one of my referees had done that, I would have had my backside kicked for making the appointment.

"If any English referee refereed like that in a European match, there would be an inquest. No question about that.

"If someone had performed like that, he would have been pulled from the next game."

Surely you have watched your Mr Lander referee and seen him slated for much worse offences, and then the RFU are straight to his rescue. Also Mr Spreadbury has had many shockers in the past and the RFU stand by him but when the decisions go against England straight to attack against the referee. A large case of pot meet kettle I think.

Do you not agree?

I look forward to hearing from you.

Kind Regards"

MG

I must say I think this represents a new low for English rugby. Everybody hates the English and they get a really hard time from everyone. But in fairness to them, they are always good losers in the face of some fairly hateful slagging at times. But not this time, they have been whipped into a frenzy by the likes of Brian Moore and Andy Robinson. Robinson is trying to save his job pure and simple. In fairness, a fair few English supporters are very embarrassed by this. Sure the ref had a poor game but that wasn't the reason England lost.

On the bright side, the more they concentrate on the ref, the longer it is likely before they get their house in order.

heggie

I'd love to know what the english players think of this move, surely they're hanging their heads in shame at the moment.

Nukem

heggie wrote:

I'd love to know what the english players think of this move, surely they're hanging their heads in shame at the moment.

I couldn't agree more.I would feel worse if that happened. It seems like your grasping at straws. This will devestate the whole team.

They loase a match so they look for scape goats. Robinson is a rubbish coach and is outta his depth. Clive must be chuckling at the ERFU

tHE vAGGABOND

Ignore the Daily Mail - its a tory paper, the main anti-everything blue blooded british, save the pount kinda crap...

What someone said in another thread..

I think a lot of this "controversy" is being drummed up by Andy Robinson in an effort to distract from the fact that he's overseen the worst England run since the 80s.

uberwolf

Woodward jumped ship cos he could see this run coming. His stalwards were all over the hill (no pun intended). No one slated EO'S when we lost the first few games under his tutelage. I can't vouch for Robinson and this move of his is a bit pathetic but his teams performance is the result of focusing all efforts on WC without regard to the future. IMO that was justified by their win and no one can say that they won't be back on form with in three years for another crack

ARGINITE

It comes down to this:
Referee had a bad game, But it didnt cause the english to loose the match.
Robinson is a rubbish coach and is WAY outta his depth.
So he should stop looking for a scape goat and step down.

Totally agree:

Nukem wrote:

heggie wrote:

I'd love to know what the english players think of this move, surely they're hanging their heads in shame at the moment.

I couldn't agree more.I would feel worse if that happened. It seems like your grasping at straws. This will devestate the whole team.

englander

Congratulations to Ireland in the rugby.

I dont particularly think England or Ireland deserved to win. The ref did have a stinker of a game but the real arse ups he made prob evened themselves out. I would have said it should have been a draw with England slightly edging it (in my unbiased opinion !!).

But that is the result so we must live with it. Hopefully the ref will realise the errors of his ways.

It is however so heart warming to read the sporting attitudes of the Irish above.

And I quote "f*cking english, such bad losers".

Nice.

You do realise that it is possible to be very poor and ungracious winners as well you know !?.

A lot of the comments are actually quite pathetic. It almost goes beyond sport - not just on this thread but other threads.

If I started a thread "f*cking Irish, such bad winners" how long would it last ?

I know Ireland isn't in a position to be ungracious in victory that often but such hatred being aired against the English - its interesting to read/hear. Do you really see England as being such a threat ! - even now ?

Best of luck for the rest of the comp anyway.

hefty_langer

He did get one thing right.. Shane is one green injury alright...

wrote:

"(Shane) Horgan is six feet four inches tall – the one green injury among all the white jerseys. He stood out like an elephant in a chorus line."

Hugh_C

landser wrote:

i'll have to look at the vid this pm, but i can't remember horgan being offside, and i don't remember any mention of a problem until now.

I hate to say it but I wouldn't examine it too closely. Not only was he offside but he was also impeding Moody (?)

We were lucky...

thejollyrodger

well imo the ref had a bad day at the office, but all of his bad decisions evened themselves out. Ireland were the better team and should have won.

That englander try at the start was illegal, but the ref should have took a look at the video at the end when England got the ball over the try line.

Plenty of the English papers were in full blown paddy bashing (see other threads here) the next morning so no wonder some paddies are pissed off.

sikes

If I started a thread "f*cking Irish, such bad winners" how long would it last

perhaps the wording was a bit harsh, but it would seem that the actions being taken by the english would warrant the name of bad losers.

however listtening to the irish management and team there were absolutly no sign of bad winners there, they applauded the english and said they played very well.

there have been many indicdents in the past where the english had the rub of the green..perhaps its now our turn

Trojan

Englander: You said "But that is the result so we must live with it. "

The problem here is that you haven't, ergo you are called bad losers. If you don't like the tag, tell the idiots to move on and worry about beating Italy, which mightn't be easy.

I think that in general the Irish are quite gracious in victory, as well as defeat, which you point out we're not in a position of very often - to quote you: "Nice". We're gracious, right up until the point where we hear sour grapes comments from Robinson, High and the like.

If you want to take the moral highground you'd be as well off not taking snipes like you do above, otherwise that's just "pathetic" (to quote yourself again of course).

I think the English need some more practice at being losers

landser

englander wrote:

A lot of the comments are actually quite pathetic. It almost goes beyond sport - not just on this thread but other threads.

If I started a thread "f*cking Irish, such bad winners" how long would it last ?

I know Ireland isn't in a position to be ungracious in victory that often but such hatred being aired against the English - its interesting to read/hear. Do you really see England as being such a threat ! - even now ?

QUOTE]

i didn't start my thread by slagging off the english..... my comment, while maybe a tad harsh, was in response to High's outburst and the comments made by the english press and the RFU management. the whole affair has had a ring of the "hand of god" about it. The english can never accept defeat. there always has to be some scapegoat.
the irish have not been ungracious in victory. we have applauded the english and it is accepted that they played better on sunday than they did in any match this chamionship, and far better than they played in last year's fixture. any so-called backlash against the english has been prompted by the reaction of the english post match, a backlash which may even lead to an official complaint.

Nukem

uberwolf wrote:

Woodward jumped ship cos he could see this run coming.

He didnt jump he was pushed.He demanded full rein of the English team and was told in the nicest manner to fook off,Similiar to what EOS wanted and got(look at the results),think the English RFU are really kicking themselves now.

uberwolf wrote:

No one slated EO'S when we lost the first few games under his tutelage.

Ireland aren't the so called World Champions,so cant compare.Ireland came outta the WC previous in tatters as i remmeber due to thie "selection panel".......arse.........
EOS demanded a team of coaches and support staff,he got them and he's delivering,long may it continue

On another note: I will put money on the Lions with Clive & EOS steering the ship that they could run riot in NZ. They are supposed to sing from the same hymn sheet and have very similar coaching styles. Tsunami match????????? Still have reservations

AthAnRi

englander wrote:

Congratulations to Ireland in the rugby.

I dont particularly think England or Ireland deserved to win. The ref did have a stinker of a game but the real arse ups he made prob evened themselves out. I would have said it should have been a draw with England slightly edging it (in my unbiased opinion !!).

But that is the result so we must live with it. Hopefully the ref will realise the errors of his ways.

It is however so heart warming to read the sporting attitudes of the Irish above.

And I quote "f*cking english, such bad losers".

Nice.

You do realise that it is possible to be very poor and ungracious winners as well you know !?.

A lot of the comments are actually quite pathetic. It almost goes beyond sport - not just on this thread but other threads.

If I started a thread "f*cking Irish, such bad winners" how long would it last ?

I know Ireland isn't in a position to be ungracious in victory that often but such hatred being aired against the English - its interesting to read/hear. Do you really see England as being such a threat ! - even now ?

Best of luck for the rest of the comp anyway.

I don't recall reading any thread on here that started "F*cking English, such bad losers nor do I feel that anyone is expressing any hatred towards the english in this particular thread. I believe that it is merely a significant Irritation towards englands ungratious attitude towards the result and towards the referee.

I don't think any one can accuse the Irish of being either bad losers or bad winners, especially the English. I believe that we are extremley gracious in both victory and defeat. However there is a severe bitterness towards england at this stage due to Englands inability to accept defeat.

It is a rare ocassion that Ireland beat England. It is an extremley rare ocassion for Ireland to beat England 2 years on the trot, and it is almost unheard of for Ireland to be chasing grand slam success. So why do England feel the need to blacken one of the best days in Irish rugby.

England for the last 3 days have been harping on about refereeing decisions going against them. Not once have they mentioned the refereeing decision that went for them. The obstruction of Ronan O'Gara for the first try. If this decision was given correctly then it would have changed the whole outcome of the game. It's quite possible that there would have been other dubious decisions after that moment, but it is also entirely possible that Ireland would have beaten them Quite comfortably, considering the major confidence boost that try gave england.

Finally, an interesting article in planetrugby.co.uk explains the three incidents in good detail. Each decision is discussed and tells why they may or may not have been given and also explains why the referee was unable, due to the rules of the game, to go to the Video Ref for a number of the decisions.

http://www.planetrugby.co.uk/News/story_41887.shtml

Hydroquinone

I think it's highly amusing to hear that another side has the monopoly on being a bad loser or a bad winner, based on what's being said in the media.
You won't hear too many of the actual players on any national team moaning about the players on another national team in public. Or the ref. Course you won't, because they are professionals.

Does no one else remember in the World Cup, that half wit on RTE, whatsisname....Kiwi feller...Pope? Anyway, he made a big song and dance on air, accusing Martin Johnson of having a microphone in his water bottle, via which he was talking to Clive Woodward. Whatever became of that? A big fat nothing.
Now, I know a lot of guff is spoken when emotions run high, but get this, we hear far more of the English media greivances than the English hear about Irish media grievances because they don't get RTE or Irish papers, whereas we get all the English media. We're obsessed by it and it isn't healthy, I don't think. If you don't like what the English are saying, don't read their papers or watch their telly, then you won't get annoyed by it.

For what it's worth, I reckon Robinson will get short shrift from the IRB, and rightly so. But maybe he's doing a Williams on it. Matt Williams jumped up and down about Simon McDowell (Is that his name? Irish linesman in the France vs Scotland game) and the IRB told Williams he had to apologise. They also removed McDowell from being the linesman at his next scheduled match in Murrayfield. So maybe Robinson is trying the same tack - maybe he doesn't want this Kaplan feller officiating at either of the next two English matches.

Sundy

yeah i was waiting for the whistle when BOD scored because horgan turns from the english side to protect the ball after hickie had gone to ground. That in my book would be offside but it cancels out Corry's try.

Englands push was not a try and even going to the video ref would not have changed that because on the relpays you cannot see the ball being grounded, so no try.
As for the irish put in to the scrum it was correct too because it was an unsuccessfull end to a maul.

And yes i do think the english are sore losers

heggie

wait for them blaiming the mitre ball when they lose to Italy j/k

Sundy

Sundy wrote:

Englands push was not a try and even going to the video ref would not have changed that because on the relpays you cannot see the ball being grounded, so no try.

That should have been a 5 yard scrum to England as they shoved over the line.
Not a try though.

Nukem

Deleted User wrote:

That should have been a 5 yard scrum to England as they shoved over the line.
Not a try though.

This seems to be a common misconception. If the player who has the ball is held up over the try line its that teams 5metre scrum. As JOC actually kept on his feet and drove him back over the try line into the field of play its Irelands ball against England for taking it in and going backward with it(not using it).
The ref was so right it wasnt funny - he got real technical - 99% of other refs would have given the scrum to Eng

Lennoxschips

Excellent analysis of the decisions taken on Sunday here:

http://www.rugbyrugby.com/TOURNAMENTS/Six_Nations/Tournament_News/story_41887.shtml

uberwolf

hehe

Nukem

uberwolf wrote:

hehe

Seen it before - still funny though

Trojan

That planetrugby/rugbyrugby analysis really is worth a look.

[Jackass]

hahaha! I love Englands reaction to losing! But it just shows how much they hate losing to Ireland by this reaction! If they weren't such an arrogant and Disrespectfull rugby nation (alla Landsdowne 2 years ago, refusing to show respect to our president...imagine we did that to the queen!!) And they are so ungracious and over the top in Victory, and so spitefull and unaccepting in defeat...the complete oppisite to Ireland...i couldn't care less about their appeals...the bottom line is we are still favourites for the GS, England have been ravaged by Ireland two years in a row, and they are the worst performing "world champions" in the history of the competition, who now face a wooden spoon encounter with Italy
Take it England...shouldn't have even won the world cup imo with menipulation of the rules of the game (woodward /johnson cheat conspieracy teroy i keep going on about! ), how ironic it is now them making an international incident about losing "because of the ref". Probably in the hope they can get back to the good old days of 2003 when officials were afraid to penalise England for Johnsons intimidation reaction on the pitch, and woodwards humiliation of the ref off it.

damnyanks

Robinson is in a bit of bother now over his comments. He faces a potential sideline ban for the rest of the tournament.

englander

Sore losing and whinging ? Leicester v Munster 2002 cup final !
My God - talk about sore losing and whinging. Weeks of ear bashing for me in Ireland cos Neil Back's hand 'slipped' and knocked the ball from Peter 'streak of p!ss' stringer's hand. Thats sore losing.

Anyway - where are you hearing English people whinging about losing this time ?

All I have honestly heard is lots of Irish complaining and whinging (!) about the English whinging. Is this whinging based on British newspapers and/or British TV ? Bearing in mind I mostly read Irish newspapers and watch Irish TV now I live in Ireland I have prob missed out on it all.

Yes Andy Robinson is (correctly so IMO) complaining about ref - but what other whinging is there ?

Is this another one of these anti-English myths Irish people like to believe in, like we ('da Brits') are always going on about 1966. That always makes me laugh. People at work once spent 30 mins talking about 1966 world cup and finished by how 'da Brits' always bang on about it. I pointed out that I had not said a word during the conversation and it was them who where in fact fascinated by it. Silence.


DubGuy22 - I am equally fascinated and interested by Ireland's reaction to beating England. Its almost like that is the Golden Quest - to beat England. Its nice to know that some Irish people still think of us with such great respect and put us on that pedestal - must beat England , must beat England....

I don't think the English rugby team deserve that respect anymore. Even though we are World Champions - that title is very hollow sounding now. We (England) need to start building team again and concentrate on getting the bare basics correct. Lots of work to do.

Trojan

I don't know why you're comparing a pathetic and deliberate foul in one case, with the judgement of a match official in the other, but that argument is weak. Your comments are also designed to jibe, so don't expect any real answers to your questions.

Yes it's based on English media. You seem to have access to the Internet too - use it. Try BBC Sport news first off. You can try watching the video of Robinsons post match interview, which has been available there for almost a week now. Then have a quick look via google news, the Daily Mail, the Telegraph and the Guardian. If you need more help identifying English media you may need to ask somewhere else.

I think you're dead right in some of your comments, but your attitude is going to attract bashing and not real debate.

englander

...In that case I want my ball back.

We invented the game you know - we should therefore be allowed to win !

Or else be able to explain why we failed (again) - therefore the ref is completely to blame. (At least there are no reports of him getting hate mail yet)

Neil Back - a deliberate foul ? The poor man had a nervous twitch in his arm - thats all that happened there !!

I am just getting fed up of hearing about how the English are whinging rather than fed up of the whinging itself. Maybe I dont see/hear it so much as I am afterall an Englander ?

I shall hush my mouth and let 'ye' enjoy the moment of

a) beating the World champs !
b) enjoying England and the English people being sore losers thus justifying a notion that England is an unfair and unjust sporting nation.

Downtime

a) beating the world champs !!! - AGAIN !!!

englander

OUCH ! OK - I'll give you that.

Rugby 'tis but a silly game anyway - I'm off over to football discussion.

(We can't possibly lose to N.Ireland in that ! However if we do it might be worth us getting our football team to play rugby and vice versa)

Trojan

That's just fine with me, you trot off and discuss the "beautiful game"...

--

Soccer supporters, eh? - Discuss.

Sundy

englander wrote:

Sore losing and whinging ? Leicester v Munster 2002 cup final !
My God - talk about sore losing and whinging. Weeks of ear bashing for me in Ireland cos Neil Back's hand 'slipped' and knocked the ball from Peter 'streak of p!ss' stringer's hand. Thats sore losing.

Anyway - where are you hearing English people whinging about losing this time ?

Stupid comparison there chap, no irish player blatently cheated to deny england a try or a try scoring chance. (slowing down the ball at the ruck doesnt count cause its more common that not these days)

Anf if your looking for whinging english check out the many rugby forums that are on the internet, there full of moan threads!

As for why we like to beat the english; its the great reaction we get when it happens. An england loss is followed english excuses while the rest of the world takes the piss (see forums mentioned above).

BlitzKrieg

englander wrote:

Anyway - where are you hearing English people whinging about losing this time ?

lets see


-i went to an international school and everytime there was an england ireland match the english students would be the most arrogent annoying pricks ever. they whined about everything in ireland yet still went to school there.


-last year, my first year in a english university

First when england won the world cup i had to listen to how amazing the victory was for about 2 weeks, including them practically kicking my door down when they won.

after ireland beats england i was banned (for my own safety) from the studant bar not because i was causing trouble but because (and this was the bouncers words) The rugby supporters are very pissed off and are being very aggressive to irish studants, another studant had a pint thrown at him cause he had an irish jersey on.

of course no one even mentioned the match the next day despite their earlier raving and singing over the world cup.

(dont get me on about the football)

and then this year while i was lucky enough to watch the match in a m8s house i have since then heard nothing about the match except how bad the ref was and how you should have won. only 3 english people congratulated ireland...only 3. 2 hate rugby and the third is the head of the christian union so you would expect that. one studant wont talk to me at all because of the match.


so. As an english man in ireland you feel that we are being the ones who are sore winners or losers, And me, an Irish man in England am not allowed celebrate the victory because i feel the english are being such sore losers.

but i love english people, i just should avoid them after victories or defeats.

yeraulone

BlitzKrieg wrote:

after ireland beats england i was banned (for my own safety) from the studant bar not because i was causing trouble but because (and this was the bouncers words) The rugby supporters are very pissed off and are being very aggressive to irish studants, another studant had a pint thrown at him cause he had an irish jersey on.

Holy crap!

whinging pommes.

Sangre

At least they aren't as bad as the Australian...sheesh.

Remember the abuse they gave Wilkinson?

Thats only because he's English and deserved it

Downtime

England coach Andy Robinson will not face an RFU disrepute charge over his criticism of referee Jonathan Kaplan after England's defeat by Ireland in the Six Nations last month.

Robinson criticised Kaplan folowing the South African's decision to disallow two England 'tries' without reference to the video referee, and the RFU asked disciplinary officer Jeff Blackett to investigate.

The result is no disrepute charge, with the former England flanker instead being warned to "avoid making critical comments of match officials during press conferences and interviews".

Immediately after England's 19-13 defeat in Dublin, Robinson said: "I'm absolutely spitting, two tries we've been cost. I'm livid, actually. We've got technology and don't know why we didn't use it."

Blackett said: "There was no overt criticism of the match referee in the post-match television interview.

"Although Robinson was clearly very angry and suggested that technology should have been used, as it was available, he did not mention the referee at all.

"Indeed, he acted with great control during the interview, and no objection can be taken about what he said. The Six Nations committee agrees with this assessment."

But in a further development, RFU Manager of Elite Referees Colin High was warned formally about his future conduct, suspended as an IRB referee assessor and asked to donate £1,000 to the IRB's Tsunami appeal after his own criticism of Kaplan.

High told a newspaper that Kaplan's performance "would not have been acceptable in the Zurich Premiership. If one of my referees had done that, I'd have had my backside kicked for making the appointment.

"If any English referee refereed like that in a European match, there would be an inquest. If someone had performed like that, he would have been pulled from the next game."

Both Robinson and High have apologised to Kaplan, the IRB and the South African Union.