AK in cash Games

AmarilloFats

I signed up to VC last weekend.. Great much better games than Ladbrokes..
Playing the .5/1 games...
This scenario keeps rearing it's head:

You have a stack > $100 you Rasie to $6 from Mp...
A shortstack goes all in for $40.
In my weeks experience the shortstack tends usually to have a small/medium PP.
Sometimes they will have a weaker ACe.
very rarely will they have AA KK as they tend to min raise or just call for fear you might fold to an all in..

So, my question is this....Should I call???????????? Is it +EV.

kencleary

Yes!
I imagine the times theyre playing with Ax compensate for the fact that youre slightly behind against a PP. Plus if you've made any sort of raise prior to theyre going all in the pot odds would probably compensate for the slightly unfavourable odds.

karlh

you are being murdered by AA and in bad shape against KK. you'ld be doing well to catch a weak ace going in for $40 (or would you!?) so i'd prolly lay down, considering you are in for $6 and only have a 48%er against lower pocket pairs. (surely -EV?)

obviously if you have some reason to suspect a lower A then get yer mortgage in there!

AK in cash games should be a raising hand and throw the rest in if you hit the flop, fold if you don't. it's a hand you should be losing less money with it since missing makes it easy to fold, not one to call $40 all ins and probably be behind.

marginal imo but sure someone will squeeze some +EV out of it, the blinds make it worth calling maybe?

kencleary

karlhoff wrote:

you are being murdered by AA and in bad shape against KK. you'ld be doing well to catch a weak ace going in for $40 (or would you!?) so i'd prolly lay down, considering you are in for $6 and only have a 48%er against lower pocket pairs. (surely -EV?)

AK in cash games should be a raising hand and throw the rest in if you hit the flop, fold if you don't. it's a hand you should be losing less money with it since missing makes it easy to fold, not one to call $40 all ins and probably be behind.

Nah youll catch plenty of weak aces with $40 on a .5/1 NL Table. But as the man says its far more likely to be 44 or 77 or something. So the pot would be $47.50 and cost $34 to call. Thats a no brainer to me!

karlh

if you can catch weak aces, low pairs then fair enough. how do you factor in if someone has you dominated though?

Lafortezza

You have AKo, you raise to $6, then someone goes all in for $40?
I'd fold it, unless I thought he was an absolute idiot who would raise all-in with AJ or AQ. Why would he do it with a pair less than JJ?

For all he knows you might have AA or KK.

kencleary

karlhoff wrote:

if you can catch weak aces, low pairs then fair enough. how do you factor in if someone has you dominated though?

Even if you reckon that he'll have AA/KK as often as he'll have Ax they'll cancel each other out and you'll still be getting the pod odds to call.

karlh

surely pot odds are based on the pot at hand and your assessment of what hand he holds. if pot odds are to apply, regardless of the amount of money.....would you call for all your chips in a fitz cash game or something similar? ~€500

you need to have a more to go on than thinking he'll hold AA or KK half the time and a weak ace the other half...

kencleary

karlhoff wrote:

surely pot odds are based on the pot at hand and your assesment of what hand he holds.

Yup if I was in that position i'd put him on small PP most likely, Ax maybe, AA/KK outside chance, complete bluff probably not. Online its rare that you'll have a good read on a random player but with him having $40 at a .5/1 NL Table thats how id make my assessment. Anyway you're gettin 1.4 to 1 pot odds for a call here. So lets see if the EV holds up.

So we have:
10% complete bluff
20% AA/KK
30% Ax
40% PP

and a rough calculation gives us:
= 10%( 60%*81.5 ) + 20%(19%*81.5 ) + 30%(70%*81.5) + 40% (45%*81.50 ) = 39.78

Right well that quick calculation tell me that my expected value from a call is $39.78, a call is only costing me $34 so here we have a +EV of about a fiver. Thats all using an unsuited AK btw if they were suited I expect you could add on a dollar or two.

karlhoff wrote:

if pot odds are to apply, regardless of the amount of money.....would you call for all your chips in a fitz cash game or something similar? ~€500

It depends, firstly i would rate the chance that somebody in the fitz cash game has AA/KK a lot higher, but it depends how much i'd already got in the pot. 6 invested 500 more to call probably not. 150 invested 500 more to call well maybe. Pot odds say I definitely should call but if i've got 500 at the table then i'm probably thinking thats my Sony PSP payed for I'll walk away but that would be the wrong

AmarilloFats

Don't get me wrong..if I am on Ladbrokes .25/.50 And someone goes all in I will fold quick sharp in this situation..
BUT it's a different breed of player on VC...
If they have a PP 50% of the time
AX (where X is any card not A,K) 35% of the time
AA 7.5 % of time
And KK 7.5% of time

U are ~75% fav aginst AX
~45% dog to PP
~6% to AA
~30% to KK
Against this range of hands(occuring with this regularity) you will win 49.2% of time



Since its a $36 call to win $83.5(inc blinds) you need to win 43% of time.
So it is +EV..but there are alot of assumptions

So that proves nothing other than I am very bored in work!!!!!!!!! :eek:

AmarilloFats

HA Ken you're as bored as me...

][cEMAN**

But can you work all of these calculations out on the spot? Or, in terms of VC, the length of time before it folds you and sets you to away?

Even at that, do you base everything on statistics?

kencleary

' wrote:

[cEMAN**']But can you work all of these calculations out on the spot? Or, in terms of VC, the length of time before it folds you and sets you to away?

Nope but you should have a base line of thinking thats instant i.e. as I said a few posts ago if youve put any money in at all then a call is probably ok - just modify that with what you know of the player/game and your own bankroll, ie I probably wouldnt call with my last 50, and make your decision.

' wrote:

[cEMAN**']Even at that, do you base everything on statistics?

No but I should

AmarilloFats

' wrote:

[cEMAN**']But can you work all of these calculations out on the spot? Or, in terms of VC, the length of time before it folds you and sets you to away?QUOTE]

Nope but its the same calculations again and again... So now next time confronted with an all in whilst holding AK..I will have a good feel for where I stand..

kencleary

AmarilloFats wrote:

Nope but its the same calculations again and again... So now next time confronted with an all in whilst holding AK..I will have a good feel for where I stand..

Well i'll probably be back playing the .50/1 NL on VC tonight - so if i go all-in with my AA will you be calling with AK?

Hectorjelly

lafortezza wrote:

You have AKo, you raise to $6, then someone goes all in for $40?
I'd fold it, unless I thought he was an absolute idiot who would raise all-in with AJ or AQ. Why would he do it with a pair less than JJ?

For all he knows you might have AA or KK.

Last night I sat down at a $2 $4 no limit 6 seater. I get AQs on the button, so I make it $20. The small blind goes all in for $80. Whilst I was contemplating this the big blind went all in for $300. I fold, they have A10 and AJ.

You have to know your player, but in general calling a shortstacks all in this situation is a good move.

DeVore

there is 47.5 in the pot when he asks you for 34 more for all 5 cards.
Thats 1.4:1.

if you were CERTAIN he had a pocket pair less then AA,KK you are ~48% likely to win.
No Brainer call. If you are certain he has unpaired cards then its a definite no brainer as you are ahead.

If you give him 10% chance of holding either AA or KK then you are in bad shape. (about 30% likely to win vs KK and about 8% against AA). So really only AA is a huge problem to you. KK is on the wrong side of the stats but its more then outweighed by the times you are facing a lower pocket pair or unpaired cards.

To answer Iceman, clearly it depends on your read of the player. If you are 90% sure he has AA or KK then you drop it like a hot stone. If you are 90% sure he DOESNT then you ram-jam your chips....somewhere in between is a line where it doesnt really matter one way or another. So the maths is important and you should know them (and yes I do those calcs occasionally in my head as roughly as I can) but ultimately the human/intangible skill in poker tells you how much you should weight each possibility and thus the over all equation.

DeV.