Musical Kata and Points Fighting Good For Real Self Defense..Discuss

Millionaire

Doing Musical Kata and Start Stop points fighting is good for real self defense..Discuss.

Lemming

You are supposed to put your own views forward first Millionaire ......

And in the ambiguous (and no doubt intentionally contentious) manner in which you've prhased your question, let me answer your question with a question

Define "real" self-defense. What is "real" and not "real"?

brenlong

Millionaire wrote:

Doing Musical Kata and Start Stop points fighting is good for real self defense.B]

Using your brain and running like the clappers is better.


"Real" self defence, is not being there in the first place.

Musashi

What music are we using? Classical for its precision or Death Metal for its energy?


What class of stirring is this post anyway? I don't see that it offers any valid input and only seeks to cause dissent among the group.

Millionaire

Its a valid question.

I am keen to know why people do these things and then think they can defend themselves. (been there myself years ago) false sense of security and all that.

vasch_ro

lets ans this post by considering what the MMA'ers call aliveness.
to quote from www.twokingsmma.net

What is Aliveness?

Aliveness can be summed up in three words: Energy, Timing and Motion

Energy
When we say "energy", we don't mean some mystical 'chi' or life force. Energy means active resistance by your training partner. They're trying to stop you execute a given move and also counter attacking. Adding this energy, or active resistance, gives you feedback which allows you to sharpen your techniques and develop skill.

Timing
Timing is knowing when to throw a jab, buck your hips, or shoot for a takedown. If two people are training with a predictable, rhythmic pattern then timing can't be developed. When your partner is throwing jabs at irregular intervals, or attacking your legs at different times, only then will you be able to develop the timing necessary to be effective.

Motion
As Luis Gutierrez said "Jitz is movement, period." I'd extend this to say that all fighting is movement. There are no "fixed" positions in any sort of physical confrontation or match. Both people are in a constant state of motion, always adjusting their position in response to their partner's movements and looking for a better position." (end quote)



points sparring(start/stop) has all of these in abundance timing ( u must pick your time to try and get a score, u must be unpredictable ) and motion ( people move around, there is fixed position, people are in a constant state of motion )
Energy: your opponent is doing his/her best to stop you scoring, ie they resist you actively.
if you accept that this is true iwould have to say that because start/stop fighting teaches u about timing , motion, energy in fighting , gets you used to a confrontational and perhaps aggressive situation, and helps your fitness and mental strength well then it is good for self defence!

Lemming

Musashi wrote:

What music are we using? Classical for its precision or Death Metal for its energy?

Neither. We're using Louis Walsh crap for extreme insanity ...

What class of stirring is this post anyway? I don't see that it offers any valid input and only seeks to cause dissent among the group.

I would rate this somewhere along the lines of

"Ted: Whatever you do, don't mention his son"
"Dougal: Hi len! How's the son!"

class stirring.

vasch_ro

musical Kata is good for real self defence because if you get started on in a niteclub, discobar all you have to do is wait for your Kata tune to come on and so u can kick some ass!!

Musashi

I'd imagine start/stop sparring is akin to sport Fencing, not with the barbed wire ye muckers!, the other fencing.
Good for reaction times and spotting an opening, but for a real battle you need broadswords,swashbuckling,no rounds and possibly an eye patch*

As for Musical Kata, why have free form floor routines to music in Gymnastics?
They have to hit certain required moves and after that are judged on artistic merit.I'd guess the same is true for musical Kata,they are not trad. katas done to music,but a collection of kicks and moves strung together by the practitioner to gain artistic merit. Or, some people just like to dance?
Thought I'd stick to sports analogies to avoid a roasting


*eye-patch optional

Roper

points sparring(start/stop) has all of these in abundance timing ( u must pick your time to try and get a score, u must be unpredictable ) and motion ( people move around, there is fixed position, people are in a constant state of motion )
Energy: your opponent is doing his/her best to stop you scoring, ie they resist you actively.
if you accept that this is true iwould have to say that because start/stop fighting teaches u about timing , motion, energy in fighting , gets you used to a confrontational and perhaps aggressive situation, and helps your fitness and mental strength well then it is good for self defence!

All sports, give or take, have these. That doesn't make them good for self defence. Essentially I think points fighting is a good game of chasing, and has its uses, but one of them is not self defence.
Try your lead hand back-fist (with accompanying shout) on someone walking in windmilling and see if they blink.
Timing: Yes it has timing, but not not for the right tools. I might be able to get my snappy lead leg kick off using that timing but my power shots (for K.O.) take longer and require different body mechanics.
Motion: Watch a points fighter bounce and tell me thats the way it will go off in a real confrontation.
Resistance: There is no resistance once the referee shouts stop! And they do that all the time.

All sports have the above in some quantity, including points sparring. It's a specific activity for a specific competition and I have no problems with it in that sense.

mark.leonard

In my opinion, and I am open to correction for those who have been involved with it longer, I think that the foundation for the principle of Aliveness is that there is a full contact "understanding", that is that although the practitioners may be pulling punches, they are both aware that the goal of the exercise is to cause maximum damage to their partner, 'seeking a KO' might be another way of putting it!
When this principle is in place sparring has an emphasis that you can't replicate with the semi-contact paradigm. In semi-contact the understanding is to score as many points as possible, you leave yourself open for some shots to score with others as you know you needn't worry about being KO'ed.

Carried to its logical conclusion - points fighting looks less and less like "real" stand up fighting, whereas FC sparring becomes more and more focused on the same goals one would have on the street ceteris paribus.

Although I am a big fan of points fighting in general and continuous Semi-contact in particular, it has no relevance to actual combat and therefore self defence.

Musical Forms?

Colm_OReilly

Mark has hit the correct with the understanding of Aliveness.

When Matt Thornton first described Aliveness he took it as accepted that the aim was realistic confrontations. But since then people have used other sports as an example of Aliveness to counter this point.

When we considered Energy, Timing, and Motion, we must also assume a ruleset as close to limitless as possible, then we're talking about being realistic.

Peace and Love Y'All,
Colm

vasch_ro

if this is the case you need to update twokingsmma.net

Colm_OReilly

I'm on it

paddyc

I think it depends on the person....

I know lads training thai and bjj and if they got into a row they would get there ass handed to them.. full stop

I also know a few lads that train, semi contact KB and TKD and they would hammer the **** out of you if you started...

so I'd say first and foremost the person in question, and secondly what they train.

paddy

mark.leonard

I don't know of any TKD stylist, who in a one on one street encounter would win unless they were bigger and stronger than their attacker.
I can think of guys trainign Thai and BJJ that could beat some street thug stronger and heavier than them however.

I think that taken over a large sample space the individual becomes less important (a bit redundant to mention it but for emphasis) and the trainign methods more so. i.e. There might be one TKD guy in a club who could defend himself but if you took 1000 TKD people their average ability to defend themselves wouldn't be close to say 1000 Thai Boxers or Jitz guys

Millionaire

yeah Thats a good example for the average btwn 1000 tkd guys and 1000 thai boxers.

however I still believe that it is the person #1. attitude and killer animal attitude first .