best ever two mile chaser

tiedcottage

One of those games for after wine and after eight mints, I’m afraid. I just got sent an email this morning from a friend asking how I would place the top 15 two mile chasers in history if they lined up against each other.



He listed



Dunkirk

Flyingbolt

Crisp

Royal Relief

Hilly Way

Badsworth Boy

Buck House

Pearlyman

Barnbrook Again

Remittance Man

Viking Flagship

One Man

Call Equiname

Moscow Flyer

Azertyuiop





I have already suggested to him that it must be made clear that this is at Cheltenham only. If it was at Sandown, say, then Desert Orchid would have won several Tingle Creek chases (had it been a Grade 1 then) and Tingle Creek himself may have to gain a place. Not to mention the fact that a field of 15 for the Champion Chase would be unprecedented.


I can also see how some would mourn the absence of Game Spirit (though he, too, never won the Cheltenham title), Fortria (my main cause for concern, who I would definitely have in ahead of some selected), Drinny’s Double, Skymas, Klairon Davis, Edredon Bleu and Flagship Uberalles.

For me it's Badsworth Boy v Flyingbolt, though I probably don't know enough about Dunkirk.

Morgans

Flyinbolt would give all the guts of two stone on official ratings.

Only read about Dunkirk. Horses like Call Equiname, One Man (worse Champion chase I can remember) Viking Flagship and Buck House have no business being in the list. I doubt anyone of them would have hit 180 handicap mark. Flyingbolt being on 210. Moscow Flyer, Azertyyuiop and Well Chief are the three best that have been about since Badsworth boy, who won three on the trot, but wasnt up against much.

Dunkirk was supposed to be a electrifying jumper, who died trying to match arkle in a KG. Tom Dreaper is on record of saying that Flyingbolt would beat Arkle up to 3m. Thats enough for me. Desert Orchid was better over farther. Draw up a list of 15KG winners and he would be very close to teh top. Crisp better over further also.

tiedcottage

Well, Morgans, we're pretty much in agreement on this one. It has to be Flyingbolt. I mean, I saw footage of his Queen Mother victory, which was facile, and though people knocked who he beat, I think the telling factor is his beign so fresh they ran him in the Champ Hurdle the day after and came third. He's in aleague of his own.

The only thing he might struggle with is, if all those 15 ran, there might be so many frontrunners he might get baulked.

As for Badsworth it's so difficult to tell. I have video tapes of all festivals from 1984 onwards, so I missed his first, his third was handed to him when Bobsline slipped on landing at the once mighty three out, but the turn of foot he showed to sprint away from Little Bay in 1984 round the turn was highly impressive. I watched it again the other day going through a nostalgia trip.

I totally agree about many in the list. The Flagship was tough, but didn't beat much, Call Equiname I will applaud more for winning it in only his third run over fences and for the ride of Mick Fitzgerald than what he beat (Edredon and D Route were gutsy, but hardly superb). One Man was brilliant in 1998, but he benefitted from some prev champions being over the hill and one can hardly call him a great two miler when he only ran once over the trip (his claim to fame will surely be being the only horse to ever win the C Chase and the Hennessy, and in the order and time he did them). I wasn't a major fan of Remittance Man, either, who i thought was better over 2½, as was Barnbrook Again, who but for Desert Orchid would have won a King George in 89 and whose best performance was over 2½ at Aintree when smashign the course record and giving Sabin du Loir and Waterloo Boy a drubbing in 1990. He'd have won 3 if fit in 91. Buck House was good, but he only confirmed form with VP from the previous years Arkle, with B Boy and Bobsline over the hill. If Boreen Prince had been fit, the prev Arkle form puts him higher.

Dunkirk and some of those before him but not in the list are well before my time. But I know many people raved about him and that's why I lefta question mark over him.

Crisp certainly need further, and if ridden from the front in the 72 Gold Cup may have won. Royal Relief I think my friend placed there because he won it twice in the colour age, but the ratings aren't that high. Pearlyman I have doubts over, simply because he seemed to be so much better at Cheltenham. He was also definitely better in 88 than 87 and may well have got his title back in 90, but for pulling up lame when cantering (though he wouldn't have found B Again an easy prospect to pass).

As for the best 3 miler, I didn't even bother to post that here. I just told my friend to put Golden Miller, Arkle and Flyingbolt in a hat and draw lots, it's as good a way as any. We shall not see their like again, but we can dream.


More interestign would have been to see how those on the list would have coped against the Orchid and Tingle Creek at Sandown. Even Flyingbolt would have had to be at the top of his game there.

I won't draw up a list of 15 KG winners, I'll leave that to my friend, bit perhaps Arkle aside he'd beat just about anything else.

tiedcottage

Before anyone says, I see the typo, as Barnie beat Sabin du Loir and co at Cheltenham not Aintree. Long day.

Morgans

Captain Christy needs to get mentioned in the best KG winners. All horses including Flyingbolt have to bow to Arkle's record. He has the record in handicaps to prove his quality.

You mention One Man, but Flyingbolts win in the Champion Chase, third in the Champion Hurdle and win in the irish national is scary. Dont forget Prince Regent when classifying the best staying steeplechasers ever.

tiedcottage

Oh I agree, Prince Regent was one who came to mind. Especially considering he lost his best years to the war and was regarded as better than Cottage Rake and he came close (leading to the elbow) to emulating Golden Miller's immortal double at Aintree,

Captain Christy was undoubtedly awesome at Kempton, though maybe him and the Orchid and in the same race could have lead to the sort of cut throat pace that happened in 1987, when the Orchid ran arguably his best race at Kempton in defeat, still leading over the third last despite going over the first two fences or so quicker than they did over the equivalent distance in the 2000 Guineas earlier that year.

I agree records in handicaps are important, but when we don;t really measure greatness of hurdlers in handicaps (didn't see Istabraq or See You Then run in too many Tote Trophys or Pierse Hurdles), too much emphasis is placed on handicaps. After all, BH Lad was awesome winning the Hennessy and the Gainsborough, but often just did enough (might not have won the Gold Cup in 84 has Brown Chamerlain not veered violently to the right over the last two and up the run in and still only lost by about 4L.

Quite right about Flyingbolt winning the Irish National, but I seem to remember the Orchid gave nearly two stone to the field when he won at Fairyhouse despite dismantling the last (I think only Barney Burnett and one other horse was in the hcap proper). What is is with these distance freaks?