rant!

doctor evil

Oh I`m annoyed, misguided ban on hunting with dogs has now come through in Britain and is now law.Its not even about animal welfare foxes are still going to get killed in less humane ways!, Blair trying to curry favour after cock up in Iraq!. There is better things for police to do rather than chase people through the country side, how are they even going to police it.
I wonder what the Antis will go after next? angling or shooting?, why cant they leave things be I really dislike one group telling another not to do something purely because they dont like it. The LACS are planning to form "hunt monitors" to keep an eye on hunts working within the law (hound excerise,flush out a fox but shoot it before hounds get it etc) to ensure they stay within the law!, please do they not have anything better to do!. I`ve also heard (not too sure if its true) that they plan to go to France to try to ban hunting!, that should be fun to watch the French like their hunting and I don`t think they will be too fond of British sabs telling them they`re cruel,sick etc!. Grrrrrr

Zombrex

My view on fox hunting is that it should be banned. It is the torture of an animal for amusement, and as such is barbaric.

It is necessary to control foxes, and to kill them. It is not necessary to enjoy doing it. I think we would all be distrubed if we found out a vet was getting enjoyment out of putting down stray dogs. Or if someone went for a job at a meat factor and said they wanted it because they like killing animals. Why is this any different. Just because the fox is not someones pet doesn't mean it is acceptable to turn its, sometimes necessary, death into a sick game.

My 2 cent ...

Lafortezza

doctor evil wrote:

Its not even about animal welfare foxes are still going to get killed in less humane ways!

What's less humane than being ripped to shreds by a pack of dogs?

doctor evil

Lafortezza the hounds break the foxes the neck,if they tear it apart after that it doesn`t matter because the fox is dead.

Wicknight the fun of fox hunting is the thrill of the chase I wouldnt call it torture because the fox does not think "oh crap I`m being chased by x number of horses and hounds why is this happening to me". It runs due to instinct same as if a larger preditor ie a wolf was chasing it. As it runs it releases endorphins to keep going so it doesnt feel pain. If its caught (which it rarely is) its over in a few seconds. I would much prefer that death as opposed to being shot/snare/poisoned and dying over a few days.

Blair is a hypocrite bans hunting with dogs(pushed through with bully boy tactics) and removes the ban from live exports.

Zombrex

doctor evil wrote:

Wicknight the fun of fox hunting is the thrill of the chase I wouldnt call it torture because the fox does not think "oh crap I`m being chased by x number of horses and hounds why is this happening to me".

The fox thinls "Oh crap I am in danger for my life, if I don't run they are going to kill me" .. and you know what, he is right.

Fox hunting, "the chase", is the act of placing a fox in a sustained state of highened fear, for the amusment of humans.

Just like throwing stones at a dog trapped in a back yard, or chasing a cat around the house with a broom all day, which would be considered acts of animal abuse, hunting a fox is also sick and wrong.

doctor evil wrote:

It runs due to instinct same as if a larger preditor ie a wolf was chasing it.

Exactly, it panics in fear of its life. Putting an animal into that state of fear purely for your own enjoyment is barbaric.

doctor evil wrote:

As it runs it releases endorphins to keep going so it doesnt feel pain.

That is not true. As it runs it panics, and just like in humans, its heart rate increases and it goes into a state of primal fear for its life. The fight or flight responce. This is not a fun state to be in, even for a fox that may not have the conscience to exactly understand that is happening to it.

More importantly, why would anyone enjoy putting a fox into this state. It is sick

doctor evil wrote:

If its caught (which it rarely is) its over in a few seconds. I would much prefer that death as opposed to being shot/snare/poisoned and dying over a few days.

If it is rarely caught, then how can fox hunting be justified as a form of pest control. It seems to be just the inhumane treatment of foxes for amusement with no actual benefit.

doctor evil wrote:

Blair is a hypocrite bans hunting with dogs(pushed through with bully boy tactics) and removes the ban from live exports.

That may be true. But banning the barbaric act of fox hunting is still a good thing.

doctor evil

The fox is an animal it runs on instinct I dont believe it actually thinks oh crap I`m going to get killed. It doesn`t run blind it knows exactly how to get away.
Other methods of population control is more barbaric, foxhunting is not all year round while shooting/snaring/poisoning will be all year round.
Granted they catch a small number of foxes but its still a small dent in the population.More foxes get killed by cars than hunting so there is much more dangrous things to a fox than a fox hunt.

[QUOTE But banning the barbaric act of fox hunting is still a good thing.
[/QUOTE] Were going to have to agree to disagree! , I think the ban is badly thought out and will have wider implications which will not justify it. Britain is turning into a nanny state I hope it doesn`t happen over here.

StupidLikeAFox

Fact of the matter is, people enjoy hunting. A lot will say its cruel/barbaric or whatever but some people see it as a hobby. No matter what they enjoy about it, they enjoy the hunt. Now if some group was set up to ban the internet, wouldnt this whole board be in the same kind of predicament as the hunters? Its a way of life for some people and thats just the way it is.

Zombrex

doctor evil wrote:

The fox is an animal it runs on instinct I dont believe it actually thinks oh crap I`m going to get killed. It doesn`t run blind it knows exactly how to get away.

Granted it runs on instinct, but then again so do you. A human will instinctivly run if threaten with violence or physical harm, such a fire. Your heart rate doesn't rationally and conscience decide to increase, and you don't "think" about flooding your blood with adrenahline.

Just because it is instinct does not mean it is cruel to enjoy putting a fox into a state of highened fear for your own amusment.

Anyone who supports fox hunting should explain why they feel it is ok to put an animal, any animal, into a state of panic and fear just so they can get enjoyment out of it.

I have no problem with the idea that foxes have to be killed to protect property or live-stock. My objection, and the part that sickens me, is when this necessity is turned into a sick game where people enact enjoyment out of a sport that inflicts very high levels of stress and panic on an animal before killing it.

If you have to kill a fox you have to kill a fox. It is sick that someone would enjoy themselves while doing it.

doctor evil wrote:

More foxes get killed by cars than hunting so there is much more dangrous things to a fox than a fox hunt.

Would you not agree that there would be something sick and distrubing about it if you found out a person enjoyed driving around the country hoping to run over a fox or other animal. How exactly is fox hunting any different?

doctor evil wrote:

Britain is turning into a nanny state I hope it doesn`t happen over here.

No I think Labour is just dragging the country side community kicking and scream into the modern world, a world where sick and barbaric acts such as blood sports are no longer viewed as acceptable forms of entertainment.

Zombrex

ColHol wrote:

Fact of the matter is, people enjoy hunting. A lot will say its cruel/barbaric or whatever but some people see it as a hobby. No matter what they enjoy about it, they enjoy the hunt. Now if some group was set up to ban the internet, wouldnt this whole board be in the same kind of predicament as the hunters? Its a way of life for some people and thats just the way it is.

Last time I checked you couldn't torture and eventually kill an animal on the internet for your own amusment (of course it wouldn't surprise me these days). If you could I wouldn't be surprised if there were calls for the website to be taken down, and I would be in full support of it.

Your analogy would be more relivent if people were trying to ban the countryside (ie country = internet). They aren't. They are trying to ban one sick and barbaric act that takes place in the country side.

StupidLikeAFox

Wicknight wrote:

Would you not agree that there would be something sick and distrubing about it if you found out a person enjoyed driving around the country hoping to run over a fox or other animal. How exactly is fox hunting any different?

Right, im just gonna pick this bit out. First of all its not the same. Your seeing hunters as people who are just going out to kill foxes. Can you not think for one second that maybe they enjoy the ''heel of the hunt''?
Think about it. You say its absolutely sick to think of someone killing foxes for fun. So a huntsman will think its an enjoyable hobby. Now why should you be so right and he be so wrong? Its just a matter of opinion, is it not?

Zombrex

ColHol wrote:

Right, im just gonna pick this bit out. First of all its not the same. Your seeing hunters as people who are just going out to kill foxes. Can you not think for one second that maybe they enjoy the ''heel of the hunt''?

That is kinda like saying it is ok for skangers to throw rocks at a chained up dog in a back garden because they are only doing it to improve their hand-eye coordination :rolleyes:

Of course they enjoy it. That is the point. They enjoy hunting foxes, they enjoying chasing after them, they enjoy riding around on horses looking for them. They believe that there is skill involved, and that they are proving themselves as master hunters. They enjoy the primal rush they get by hunting and killing another semi-intelligence that can be unpredictable and provide a "challange". It is the same reason people like to play Quake online against real oppoents.

You are still hunting and killing a fox for your own enjoyment.

If it makes it easier for them to sleep at night to not think about the poor fox who is running terrified through the country only to eventually be mauled to death by dogs, and instead think of some completely abstract idea of "the hunt", I don't really care. They are still barbaric.

I am sure the line "we try not to actually think of the poor fox/dog/bear/cock while we are enjoying ourselves" has been used during all blood sports since the start of time.

ColHol wrote:

Think about it. You say its absolutely sick to think of someone killing foxes for fun. So a huntsman will think its an enjoyable hobby. Now why should you be so right and he be so wrong? Its just a matter of opinion, is it not?

Well I think it is sick if a huntsman or farmer is enacting enjoyment out of killing foxes as well. I would find it sick if a vet came round to my house to put down my dog and he said "this is the best part of my job".

Are you saying there is nothing wrong with constructing a sport where the main enjoyment and satisfaction comes from torturing and killing a live animal?

StupidLikeAFox

Wicknight wrote:

Are you saying there is nothing wrong with constructing a sport where the main enjoyment and satisfaction comes from torturing and killing a live animal?

Sure i dont think its right, i wouldnt condone it and wouldnt take part in it. But this is a way of life for these people, theyve been doing it for years, probably centuries. So other people come in and tell them theyre wrong. Just try see it from both sides of the fence.
Foxes are also classed as vermin afaik. Its also a well known fact that the foxes are killed instantly, the dogs instinct is to go for the throat. Also they dont necassarily kill hundreds of foxes every day. Ive a funny feeling that if they were out hunting rats there would be no problem, but some people cant stand thinking of cute little foxes being killed

Zombrex

ColHol wrote:

Sure i dont think its right, i wouldnt condone it and wouldnt take part in it. But this is a way of life for these people, theyve been doing it for years, probably centuries. So other people come in and tell them theyre wrong.

The same argument is used to justify oppression of women in extreme Islamic areas. There has never been a single barbaric act or system that has not been justified by those who partake in it.

I am not comparing fox hunting to the Taliban, I am simply pointing out that just because they believe it is ok doesn't mean it is.

ColHol wrote:

Its also a well known fact that the foxes are killed instantly, the dogs instinct is to go for the throat.

The foxes are not killed instantly, they are chased for miles, during which they are in a state of great panic and fear. It would be illegal in the US to excecute convicted serial killers in this way, yet if it is a fox ah who cares.

ColHol wrote:

Also they dont necassarily kill hundreds of foxes every day.

That is the most ridiculous part, as they claim it is necessary to hunt and kill the fox, but sometimes they don't. So really the actual justification for the hunt disappears and we are just left with the sickening idea that these people do it not because it needs to be done but because they enjoy it.

ColHol wrote:

Ive a funny feeling that if they were out hunting rats there would be no problem, but some people cant stand thinking of cute little foxes being killed

If someone was chasing a rat down a street throwing stones at it for no apparent reason I would give them a clip around the ears.

StupidLikeAFox

Wicknight wrote:

The same argument is used to justify oppression of women in extreme Islamic areas. There has never been a single barbaric act or system that has not been justified by those who partake in it.

Exactly, and who are you and i to tell them otherwise?

The foxes are not killed instantly, they are chased for miles, during which they are in a state of great panic and fear. It would be illegal in the US to excecute convicted serial killers in this way, yet if it is a fox ah who cares.

Oh the poor foxes, SOMEBODY THINK OF THE FOXES!!!

If someone was chasing a rat down a street throwing stones at it for no apparent reason I would give them a clip around the ears.

Yeah, sure ya would

Hey, i do think theyre bastards, but i acknowledge its just my opinion. Theyre not commiting acts of mass terrorism or other such stuff. To be quite honest if every hunter in the world stopped hunting tomorrow, what great change would come about in the world? If the fox population was to fall under threat, then there should be questions asked, but on the whole they aint doing such severe damage tbh

Zombrex

ColHol wrote:

Exactly, and who are you and i to tell them otherwise?

That doesn't make any sense. Are you saying it is wrong to tell people who are partaking in acts of a barbaric and unjustified cruelty just for there own amusment that they have to stop, just because they themselves think there is nothing wrong with it?

ColHol wrote:

Oh the poor foxes, SOMEBODY THINK OF THE FOXES!!!

Yes, the poor foxes.

ColHol wrote:

Yeah, sure ya would

Of course I would, I would think it were disgusting. If I saw someone torturing any animal for no reason just to get a kick out of it I would stop them.

ColHol wrote:

If the fox population was to fall under threat, then there should be questions asked, but on the whole they aint doing such severe damage tbh

The point is that is wrong for them to do it, there is no justifiable reason for doing it, and it is an unnecessary and barbaric act to do it, why don't they just stop.

It always puzzled me why the pro-hunt people think everyone else is making "a big deal" over the issue, when there are more important things in the world. But in fact it is the pro-hunt people who are making the big deal by fighting tooth and nail to keep a sport that the rest of us think is sick and wrong and should have died out years ago.

StupidLikeAFox

Wicknight wrote:

That doesn't make any sense. Are you saying it is wrong to tell people who are partaking in acts of a barbaric and unjustified cruelty just for there own amusment that they have to stop, just because they themselves think there is nothing wrong with it?

Its barbaric in your mind.

The point is that is wrong for them to do it, there is no justifiable reason for doing it, and it is an unnecessary and barbaric act to do it, why don't they just stop.

Jesus, sure why play a football match if all your gonna do is win a crumby trophy at the end of it, or maybe not even that

..... that the rest of us think is sick and wrong and should have died out years ago.

Yes, your opinion, end of story. Ok, so lets say a homosexual likes having homosexual relations or whatever.

Someone says it is completely and utterly wrong. Who is in the right?

Someone likes eating meat. Another finds it disgusting and barbaric. Who is right?

etc etc.

Why should we attack the sport of hunting just because we disapprove?

Zombrex

ColHol wrote:

Why should we attack the sport of hunting just because we disapprove?

But ColHol you could say that about anything. I could string up a live dog and slowly peel of its skin with a blunt knife while it howls in pain, then I put it over my body and say "I am the dog man!"

Who is to say that is wrong?? :rolleyes:

StupidLikeAFox

Yeah, totally different, maybe i did generalise a bit too much. Your just finding it hard to see that its a sport and not a bunch of crazed loons desperately mad to kill foxes.