Mixed Martial Arts are more 'traditional' than TMAs. Discuss

mark.leonard

Thread from our friends over on Practical Martial Arts
Mixed Martial Arts are more 'traditional' than TMAs

Roper

So basically, no matter what you do, its TMA?
Sorry, but speaking as a "TMA"er, whatever that means these days, the techniques may exist in some way in MMA, but the body movement, positioning and timing does not.

I can think of no better way of explaining this then the Greco pumelling drill I was introduced to last year. There is simply no way that solo training, either by Kata or not, can replicate the lessons learned about controlling an opponent in that drill. All the techniques in the world cannot be applied in that position unless you have control.

I'm not trying to offend anyone (particularly the PMA guys) when I say this. If I watch a game of football, I reckon I can find a few techniques derived from patterns. Theres the back-heel, which is like a foot sweep, some volleys look like a crescent kick...... you get my point I'm sure.
This reminds me of the bible arguments. You can find anything to prove anything you want as long as the information is interpretable.

Colm_OReilly

Ridiculous!

Mixed Martial Arts are using techniques derived from patterns

Incorrect, movement, and fighting, came long before any attempt at ritualisation and formalisation, which is essentially what patterns are. As the practioners of patterns spent more time on repetitive movement and less on 'free' movement the basis and reality of patterns became further and further removed from the truth, ie actual combat.

To look at it another way. Anytime someone who is solely interested in performance (ie ability to adpat and create within a realitistic fighting structure) comes across a problem they do not refer back to a catalogue of katas, but rather work through it with a partner, testing variables and seeking the advice of a coach.

Peace and Love Y'All,
Colm

pma-ire

Again a post from the PMA forum taken out of context...

Mixed Martial Arts are using techniques derived from patterns and probably actually studying the martial arts in a far more traditional manner than those doing patterns since patterns were developed during a time when practicing with a partner was both hard and a very dangerous thing to do. Are they merely re-inventing the wheel with a more sport-like slant?

Thoughts please people

Matt's question here is an open and honest acceptance of the world of MMA in the TMA world. PMA respects the MMA'ers for the hard one on one training that is practiced by them, and for them putting it on the line in there competitions. Which are the hardest form that can be found for Multi-styles to come together and bash it out.

What has happened now is Mix Martial Arts have become a Martial Art Style itself due to the fact that folks that wanted to train in the way Vale Tudo and UFC fighters have found to be the best and have left there base arts to persue this. But really I think it is really a concept much in the way of JKD. Which is fine also, but there is nothing stopping a TMA style adapting and taking on this concept.

The reason this question was posted, was to show that the way MMA is practiced today is much more like the original form of MA training. Where partner work (drilling combo's and linking movements together with various levels of force from the partner) was the fundemental base of dojo training. Otherwise using the Kata (which many times their was only one for a style) was to be used by the fighter to practice solo. A way to drill the motion and muscle memory while not able to attend training.

All the PMA styles use this model for training. Kata is only a reference for the style. Free form is what the Martial Artist should always strive to.

mattsylvester

"Mixed Martial Arts are using techniques derived from patterns and probably actually studying the martial arts in a far more traditional manner than those doing patterns since patterns were developed during a time when practicing with a partner was both hard and a very dangerous thing to do. Are they merely re-inventing the wheel with a more sport-like slant? "

Roper wrote:

I can think of no better way of explaining this then the Greco pumelling drill I was introduced to last year. There is simply no way that solo training, either by Kata or not, can replicate the lessons learned about controlling an opponent in that drill. All the techniques in the world cannot be applied in that position unless you have control.

Exactly which is why I put it as "actually studying the martial arts in a far more traditional manner than those doing patterns since patterns were developed during a time when practicing with a partner was both hard and a very dangerous thing to do". MMA practitioners are doing it the way it was supposed to be done before the japanese ruined it. Patterns are a much later invention and a poor substitute for partner-based training.

Roper wrote:

I'm not trying to offend anyone (particularly the PMA guys) when I say this.

No worries, we're thinck. Skinned that is!

colm wrote:

To look at it another way. Anytime someone who is solely interested in performance (ie ability to adpat and create within a realitistic fighting structure) comes across a problem they do not refer back to a catalogue of katas, but rather work through it with a partner, testing variables and seeking the advice of a coach.

Yep, the old, traditional way.

Perhaps I should have phrased it like this. Added comments are in italics.

"Mixed Martial Arts are using techniques that can be derived from existing patterns and probably actually studying the martial arts in a far more traditional manner than those doing patterns since patterns were developed during a time when practicing with a partner was both hard and a very dangerous thing to do with the techniques that were once previously practiced in partner drills being incorporated into patterns. Are they merely re-inventing the wheel with a more sport-like slant? "

The last statement is because of the rules that you guys are bound to during tournaments (which is a good thing as otherwise they'd be banned faster than Concorde). See Fighters for an article on this aspect as well

BTW, I'm playing Devil's Advocate on this one as I'm looking for material for another article I'm writing. Thanks for bringing this discussion to this board Mark, you've done a lot to promote PMA and I'm very grateful for all of your hard work!

mattsylvester

Roper wrote:

So basically, no matter what you do, its TMA?

Or another way of looking at it is that if you do MMA then it's TMA with 'TMA' not actually being 'TMA' but just MA. If you see what I mean! :eek:

Really good way of screwing with your mind, just like the fact that there is no such thing as a hooking kick in TKD (or maybe it was crescent). I'll post the link to the article on the PTKD board. It really gets one thinking!

mattsylvester

Could all of you who have replied to this on this board stick it on the PMA board as well please as cross-posting on boards can result in really good discussion opportunities being missed with members not being on each board.

Cheers!

cmb.

pma-ire wrote:

Otherwise using the Kata (which many times their was only one for a style) was to be used by the fighter to practice solo. QUOTE]

true but while that maybe the origianal intention - it has become more of a performance piece - and while im not knocking this - god knows ive spent hundreds of houres on them - it should be seen as this despite the fact that some 'traditionalists' refuse to accept this - imo

the fact is that many matrial arts are futile and have been proven as such by nhb/mma/vale tudo (or whatever name you want to put on it) - i grew up with certain beliefs about my trainig which ive come to rralise to be false - i dont see those years as wasted - for one i never got involved to be the 'utlimate fighter'

pma-ire

cmb. wrote:

true but while that maybe the origianal intention - it has become more of a performance piece

I agree with you there spot on

But whats wrong with bringing the original intention back

Colm_OReilly

Again a post from the PMA forum taken out of context.

I don't believe it was taken out of context Paul. The quote I made was a complete clause and argument in itself, "and" being used to join another clause that would provide further explanation of my quote.

I took stock against the term "derived from", which means, "taken from". My point is that the movements came first, and not the other way around. Matt has since changed this.

As for the term TMA, it is, as far as I can tell, a term created by Functional JKDer's to describe arts that do not train in an "Alive" manner. This thread, to me, is largely about semiotics.

Peace Out,
Colm

paul moran

"you say tom ate o, and I say to mat o, you say po tate o and I say po tat o, to mate o, to mat o, po tate o po tat o"

pma-ire

Colm_OReilly wrote:

I don't believe it was taken out of context Paul.

The post was a question for discussion. Not a reason to jump on the case of the other camp.

Colm_OReilly wrote:

I took stock against the term "derived from", which means, "taken from". My point is that the movements came first, and not the other way around. Matt has since changed this.

If it was not for the "TMA" then alot of the basics would have been forgotten, then they would all be rediscovered by someone else at some stage claming it as there own. But that don't really matter.

What has Matt changed??

Colm_OReilly wrote:

As for the term TMA, it is, as far as I can tell, a term created by Functional JKDer's to describe arts that do not train in an "Alive" manner. This thread, to me, is largely about semiotics.

Really? Who was this? I have seen the term "TMA" used long before I the UFC came along, or even heard of Functional JKD? Though Bruce Lee always used the term "the Traditional Martial Arts" or "the more Traditional Martial Arts".

Clive

Depends what you mean by "traditional"...

Colm_OReilly

The post was a question for discussion. Not a reason to jump on the case of the other camp.

Which I did. Counterarguing Matt's prime argument, I believe.

What has Matt changed??

From

Mixed Martial Arts are using techniques derived from patterns

to

Mixed Martial Arts are using techniques that can be derived from existing patterns

Really? Who was this? I have seen the term "TMA" used long before I the UFC came along, or even heard of Functional JKD? Though Bruce Lee always used the term "the Traditional Martial Arts" or "the more Traditional Martial Arts".

The first time I heard the term, and the only context I have ever heard the term TMA was in debates between people who train in a realistic combat orientated manner, be they called MMAers, Ultimate Fighters, Functional JKDers or whatever, and those who practice dead patterns ad naseum. From your reference to Bruce Lee, it seems he meant it in the same way.

Depends what you mean by "traditional"...

True.

pma-ire

Lee brought the bujutsu back to the budo that the TMA had and have fallen into. Much of his theories have since been intergrated by all sides of the Martial Arts World.

This is not a bad thing. Thank god that he did. But even Lee was not doing anything that had not been done before. Okinawan MA'ists were incouraged to cross train and mix in all the ellemtns that worked for them.

Very MMA, if you want to put a tag on it.

traditional

adj 1: consisting of or derived from tradition; "traditional history"; "traditional morality" [ant: nontraditional] 2: pertaining to time-honored orthodox doctrines; "the simple security of traditional assumptions has vanished"

If you mean does MMA stick to training methods and practices because they are established or merely because they have been done by people for hundereds of years then NO!

If you mean is MMA more established than pretty much any other martial art under the sun then YES!

pma-ire

columok wrote:

If you mean is MMA more established than pretty much any other martial art under the sun then YES!

What is that about??

NO thats not what I meant. And after all that has been posted to this point on the subject, then I don't see how I can explain my HO any further.

What is that about??

Look up Pankration. Its not rocket science!

pma-ire

columok wrote:

Look up Pankration. Its not rocket science!

If you had quoted this as your train of thought then I would have

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Olympics/pankration.html

Pankration:

This event was a grueling combination of boxing and wrestling. Punches were allowed, although the fighters did not wrap their hands with the boxing himantes.

Rules outlawed only biting and gouging an opponent's eyes, nose, or mouth with fingernails. Attacks such as kicking an opponent in the belly, which are against the rules in modern sports, were perfectly legal.

Ya, knew about this already, this TMA'phobic attitude is astounding. It's like the Koreans pretending that their MA's had come from mentioned styles in there ancient history. Which was totally BS as the infulence of the Japanese style and the Chinese to a lesser extent is there to be traced without much effort.

It could be like these guys who are off there heads?
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/4933/shillelagh.html

You could also go claiming this kind of thing from Irish history like Irish Collar and Elbow wrestling and stickplay to Cornish Close Hugg wrestling (which has been suggested was a big infulence on Prof.Kano when he travelled Europe prior to presenting Judo to the Tokyo University as a phisical fitness activity for the students to undertake in a safe enviroment.

Indeed it was Prof.Kano who created the belt ranking system for Martial Arts. As up to that point there were not any belt ranking system that could be referred to a reflection to todays common standard. Kano also brought in the "Traditional Gi" thats is the norm today. Up until then the casual wear to the time was worn for any physical training.
http://cornishwrestling.tripod.com/menu_sections/questions/howiscwdifferent.html
You might also enjoy this passage
http://www.combatwrestling.com/catchwrestling.html

So in essence you agree

Ya, knew about this already, this TMA'phobic attitude is astounding. It's like the Koreans pretending that their MA's had come from mentioned styles in there ancient history. Which was totally BS as the infulence of the Japanese style and the Chinese to a lesser extent is there to be traced without much effort.

??? Wont even pretend to know what tangent your going off onto.

The point is MMA is just our name and our training methods of how we fight. MMA/Pankration/Vale Tudo/whatever is all the same. Its fighting. If you wanna learn to fight with as few limits as possible then that was the deal. Am I claiming that Royce Gracie has links with ancient greece? No.

MMA in one form or another has been around for millenia. It gets forgotten for a few hundred years (post queensbury rules) and people get hung up on kata until someone starts UFC. The majority of people werent listening to Bruce Lee. They were doing what he did (Jun Fan?) rather than applying what he was saying. It took the UFC nastiness for people to actually sit up and stop listening to asian grandmasters about how to really fight.

As long as humans want to learn how to fight MMA (in whatever form) will be around. Whether its called Pankration or DeathBall itll be based on the same principles and training methods. Nothing for the sake of it. Performance is number 1! Tradition is unimportant!

Get me?

pma-ire

columok wrote:

As long as humans want to learn how to fight MMA (in whatever form) will be around. Whether its called Pankration or DeathBall itll be based on the same principles and training methods. Nothing for the sake of it. Performance is number 1! Tradition is unimportant!

Get me?

I got you ages ago

But you've still got your eyes closed. The reason Matt started this thead on PMA was because he (like I) think that the ethos of "MMA" is correct to the format of combat arts "MA", "TMA".

Hello! We like what you are doing! We are doing "Traditional" MA, with the original Okinawan ethos. Which would have been very like the MMA approach (like it or not). But we are not dropping something that we have been doing for years because it looks like something else (all MA's are interlinking anyway). We are learning from all camps and bringing it back to our core base.

Your Kung Fu (which means "hard work" not martial arts) might be what works for you and it might not work for me in it's total. But I am still willing to learn from your concepts and methods.

MMA is the freestyle kickboxing of today. When FKB came along it was a major kick in the pants to the MA's that hid behind there ranks. But back in those days most of the arts were a lot harder than today's massproduced products. So UFC, Vale Tudo etc have a bigger impact to todays softer MA world. And it's a good thing.

mark.leonard

A weekend away and look what this thread has grown into - my work here is done! :-)

pma-ire

mark.leonard wrote:

A weekend away and look what this thread has grown into - my work here is done! :-)

And what was that exactly?

vasch_ro

pma-ire wrote:

And what was that exactly?

generate a long thread ??

mark.leonard

vasch_ro wrote:

generate a long thread ??

Vasch has tickled the correct!