I need some advice, again

nesf

I should really log out and post all this as a unreg'd user, but to be honest I hate the idea of hiding behind a pseudonym, theres nothing in this post that I want to hide.

My problem is my dad when it comes to my depression. As a short bio to this, I was diagnosed 7 years ago, have been on treatment for 4 of those 7 years and been diagnosed by three seperate psychiatrists. The problem unfolds as follows. I apologise in advance for this rant. I've had a bad day.

My dad is refusing to believe there is anything wrong with me. The fact that my shrink want's to hospitalise me is unfazing to him. He truly believes that i just need to motivate myself to feel better. I'm not sure how to deal with this. It's so hard to have to take a phone call every second day telling me to get my act together and pull myself back up and get motivated and do things. Every time it's the same. I don't know what to do. I can't ask him to stop ringing me. Yet everytime he rings me I feel ten times worse, because I feel like a total failure and a freak for not being able to do stuff. I feel like I'm responsible for how I am and how it's all just some delusion in my head instead of the genetic illness that my doctors say it is. It's so hard getting this constantly from someone who I respect so much. The problem is that I know he's only trying to help and that in his heart he's doing the best possible thing by ringing me and doing this stuff. He just can't see what effect it has on me. I'm not sure what to do about it. Everytime I force myself to do what he wants me to do I hit a brick wall and have a mini breakdown from the stress and pressure I put myself under. He isn't giving me time to heal. It's like I'm lying in bed with pneumonia and he's telling me to get up and walk it off. It's no different to this. Well pneumonia only ****s you up for a few months, depression lasts for years. He had no problems when I had pneumonia unsuprisingly.

He is totally against me being on drugs and seeing a psychiatrist. His exact words are "They only say what they say because of the things you tell them". He won't respect anything my shrink does or says, and was very dismissive of her after meeting her for a brief joint session. He's against me seeing a therapist too. The reason why he's not getting his way with all this is that I organise all the sessions myself and pay for private therapy out of my own cash. (Admittedly he finances me anyway, but he can't complain if I'm not asking for more money for it). Now my mother suffers from mild depression and her entire family is riddled with it. She's being very supportive and always wants to talk to me about my therapies and medication and how I'm doing on them. She blames herself for me inheriting the depression, I try and tell her not to do this, but it's the kind of person she is. She fights a constant war at home to convince my father of what depression is and such. They have fought about it on more than one occasion, and this isn't something that makes me happy. I hate being the cause of unrest between my parents.

My father is trying to do what he sees as the right thing by doing what he does with me. I know this. Yet for someone so well educated as he is, he still veiws depression as an illness that is only suffered by people that leave themselves suffer it, and who don't make the effort to overcome it. He doesn't really see it as an illness, but as a form of laziness. He sees it as a character flaw. He doesn't see and won't allow himself to see all the efforts I've made to help myself. I had to sort out all my therapists and psychiatrists on my own, with no emotional support from anyone. That wasn't easy to do. It took me years after I was diagnosed to accept that I had a problem because of my dad's attitude to depression. I wanted so badly for it not to be true, because I knew how my dad was about it. I could always see how he was with mom and how mom always tried to hide her depression from him. If mom had to spend five or six hours in bed during the day because she was depressed we all had to promise not to say it to daddy when he came home. I was young enough at the time to not be able to comprehend that this wasn't normal or that there was a problem there.

I'm trying to get across the situation I'm in. My parents are very divided when it comes to my treatment. My dad used to ignore it as something that wasn't there for a few years, but it's become so intrusive in my life that he can't keep his nose out of it now. I hate being the cause of a fight between my parents. I hate it. My siblings are equally split. My brother holds similar opinions to my dad but doesn't force them on me. He just doesn't understand it and leaves it at that and I respect him for being able to do that and for not driving me crazy with nagging. My sister is studying psychology up in UCG and as you might imagine has a better than average understanding of the whole thing. She is very supportive to me in that she fights my fights with dad when I'm not around. She's also great for mom as she gives mom another person to talk to about depression.

I suppose what is worst about the whole thing is dad's attitude to the whole thing. He gets angry with me for telling some of my lecturers what is wrong and for explaining why I have such problems with attendance and such. He got annoyed with me for going to the disablitites support service in the college and asking for help. Aparently I shouldn't be getting help from others. I should do everything for myself and anything that I get help on is a bad thing. He even was annoyed with me because I'd been given an extention on my project so that I could do it when I was feeling better and wasn't depressed. He though that this was just an excuse for me to doss around and not do anything.


Look guys my main problem is this. I'm being battered by opinions by someone very close to me that there is nothing wrong with me and that it's all in my imagination. That all these shrinks and doctors are wrong. I'm being constantly assailed by these opinions.

What should I do?

LegacyUser

How are you so sure you are right and your father is wrong?
Have you really considered whether your father may actually be right?

I know it's not a popular opinion to say that with a bit of willpower and the desire to not wallow in one's own self pity depression can be overcome, because any time I offer that opinion people get very angry and think that I am an uncaring and callous person who couldn't possibly understand what depression is and they say dismissive things like "I just don't understand what they are going through".

Well I did "suffer" from depression before. I put the work in inverted commas because I believe it was a state of mind of my own making. I made the decision to climb out of a state of basically feeling sorry for myself and constantly looking on the bad side of things. Basically, I decided to "pull up my pants" as it were and get on with things. I realised that (to paraphrase Denis Leary) life sucks and happiness only comes in small doses and that I could learn to live with that and just get on with the business of living.

Some concrete things you can do to make it easier to climb out of your depression are to keep active - run, swim, cycle, whatever. Exercise is good for you mentally. A solid day's labour and developing a hearty appetite is good for the soul. That's another thing too. Eating right with a healthy balanced diet is something else that can make a big difference. Try not to binge drink. Nothing wrong with a healthy pint of beer or two but try not to drink so much that you get a hangover.
Try to develop an interest in something. Get some kind of hobby to occupy your time. Try to make it something a bit more active and hopefully something that is a sociable activity so that you will meet more people and be more socially engaged.

I always think that it's funny that in modern times there are so many people are depressed, when we should in theory be very happy as we have apparently never had it so good, what with all our modern technology and wealth and medcial knowledge. It is an epidemic of our times though, and I think it is most likely due to the more impersonal nature of society these days where real human contact is increasingly minimal. We also lead more sedentary lifestyles and I think a lack of exercise is a factor too. When people had to work in coal mines or labour in the fields all day they didn't have time to get depressed. Now that people have longer life expectancies and aren't being threatened with death by a multitude of real diseases we now have the time to be depressed. I guess that means that what I'm saying is that depression is not a real disease and I suppose I am. How real or imaginery it is is only as real as anyone is prepared to accept something that exists only in the mind can be. It's a real philosophical conundrum of course, because existence itself is only as real as you perceive it to be.

Well, I don't want to get into philosophical conundrums at all actually, because what I am trying to suggest is to simplify things. I am suggesting to stop thinking about things too much and to simply get on with the business of living. Ask yourself what's the point of sitting around moping. I know you will say it's not as simple as that and I don't mean to offend you but I am saying with the greatest respect for your feelings that it is as simple as that if you make it be. I believe the solution is as simple as to just "snap out of it" because I made that decision a while ago and while it wasn't quite as quick as that, once the decision was made, I knew it was just a matter of staying positive after that. I often have to catch myself if ever I recognise the tendency to start feeling sorrowful for myself and just tell myself to stop self-pitying because wallowing achieves nothing. Life is too short for that and it'll be over too soon to waste time feeling sorry for yourself because of whatever reasons. I think the thing to do is to pick yourself up and dust yourself down and move on. There's honour in that. Ask yourself what are you achieving in wallowing in misery anyway.

Well as I said already I mean no offence to you, but it won't surprise me if you or others reply angrily to tell me that depression can't just be "snapped out of" and how wrong I am. Well I don't believe I am and I think anyone can choose not to be depressed if they want to. I say this with no intention to offend you or anyone else, but I truly believe that people who are depressed choose to be depressed.

I'll just end by quoting a line from the Shawshank Redemption that is about hope, but is also an appropriate phrase to sum up what I am saying about the choice I believe you have facing you: Get busy living, or get busy dying. I think it can be as simple as that if you want it to be!

comfortablynumb

Theres a lot of people that see depression the way your dad does. It's surprising your mam couldn't help your dad see depression differently and with that I wouldn't be surprised if anyone could teach your dad to see it more realistically.

If I was in your position I'd either tell my dad "i see what your saying and all but its not helpful, i'll try and deal with it myself , thanks anyway".

Or just say nothing to him and ignore his belittling (sp?) of your depression and try deal wit it that way.

MizzKattt

When someone loves you especially a parent, he/she tends to want the best for you and he/she may have some very set ideas of how to achieve it. As parents, the habit of shaping and molding you into their image becomes a difficult habit to break. Although, we were given free will for a reason.

Regretfully, I must say your father's attitude toward depression once mirrored my own. For someone very decisive and strong, it is difficult to comprehend depression. For someone like myself, it is perplexing how one cannot just choose to make his/her life better with the power of a decision. I still struggle with the concept. I understand it exists. Unfortunately, with the lack of personal experience, depression is not only foreign but inconceivable. I don’t want to excuse or justify your father’s lack of support. I only want to give you a perspective you may not have considered…his.

From what you post, his position on your depression seems immobile. You cannot change his mind or his opinion, only he can. So how do you make your situation better? Perhaps, by changing your reaction, you could eventually change the way his opinion makes you feel. When he starts lecturing you about your depression, what do you say? do? What could you say/do differently that might make the conversations or lectures shorter? I do not normally advocate lying, but…. I have learned when agreeing with someone it tends take the fight out of him/her. Although you may be compromising your opinion in order to maintain peace.

You sound as if you really respect him and his opinion which must make it that much more difficult to endure. I hope you can find a solution before it damages your relationship with him or your family's further.

b3t4

nesf,

I'm sorry to hear about your situation. I have been in a somewhat similar position as your's, a number of years previously. I had been hospilitised and had to deal with an aunt telling me how there was nothing wrong with me, it hurt like hell as she is a woman who I used to have a huge amount of respect for and it was at a time in my life when I needed the support of family most. I, also, faced a constant battle with my mother over payment towards counsellors.

I can see how your father is only trying to deal with this whole thing in his own way and that this is causing you upset and hurt. I would like to know if you have told him how what he is saying and doing is hurting and upsetting you?? He more than likely doesn't realise what effect his actions are having on you. and if you could possibly explain your feelings to him in a calm manner then he may pay heed to them. He is your father and he doesn't want to hurt or upset you.

Your mother hid her feelings from your father it would be nice if you broke the cycle. MizzKatt, makes a good point in that people who have not or do not suffer from depression are very unlikely to understand things from the depressed persons point of view.

Also, I had to come to a stage where I had to accept to some degree how my family was organised and how I could never change them, as hard as that was and still is to accept.

Also, if your father is ringing you on such a consistent basis it is his way of trying to say that he cares and that he is worried about you, even though he may never say this.

Well, I hope the above has given you something to think about,

A.

Beruthiel

you're dad comes from 'old school' thinking, back in his day if you felt down, you just pulled yourself together and got on with it.
He understands that if you break your arm, it hurts, he can see that and gets the process involved in fixing the problem.

The brain however, is a foreign entity to him, he does not understand how it works.
Is there no book that would explain the reasons for your depression? a simple explanation on the process and how everything in the body has to balance exactly right in order for you not to feel the way you do.
Has he never opened himself up to researching this in order to understand? If he hasn’t, perhaps it’s time for you to help him with this.
Give him the books, after that it’s up to him to read them.
As b3t4 said, if he is calling you every day, clearly he loves and cares for you a lot and is showing you in the only way he can.

tinkerbell

How about you ask him to come along to one of your sessions - that way, the professional (i.e. your shrink) can explain the situation to him, without you being under pressure to explain it. He might listen more to a doctor.

If he refuses, well you're just gonna have to tell him that the way he speaks to you when he calls is just making things worse and is not helping.

Good luck

nesf

Hm I should have given a fuller bio, but thanks to all of you for your replies, you too brain1 I understand what your saying mate and I'm glad to see that no one has flamed you over it.

I'll reply in order.

Brian 1:

I tried this. I went off drugs and therapies for 3 years. I told myself that it was all in my head and that there was nothing wrong with me. It ended up with my having a nervous breakdown. I was hospitalised, and talked to very strongly by some doctors over the whole thing. Other stuff happened that I'm not going to get into. I am 100% sure that I am right by this stage in my life. I tried to snap myself out of it for 3 years and it didn't work.

Now that said, I've met and seen alot of people who do fall into the catagory of snap yourself out of it. There is alot of people in the world at the moment who "suffer" from "depression". These people look at it as an excuse and have very little wrong with them really. They still need help to get themselves over whats wrong in their head in my opinion, but these people are the kind that won't seek medical help because they know there is nothing wrong with them.

I know what you are saying mate, and I appreciate that its not an easy position to take on the subject. Just believe me when I say that what you said doesn't apply to me. I've been hospitalised more than once over this. I'm on very high doses of drugs. As my psychiatrist told me when I talked to her about it maybe being all in my head, "the quantities of drugs that you are on would be driving you crazy if there wasn't a genuine chemical problem in your brain". At the moment I'm on 10 times the regular working dose of my medication. I'm being reffered to the central medical health hospital for further diagnosis and testing because my psychiatrist is no longer comfortable with not having a second or third opinion on the case, she wants more doctors to be involved for increasing my medication because it's already at dangerously high levels. I've been sat down by medical professionals and been told that they are worried about me and they would be more comfortable with me in mental hospital for a few weeks or months.

Believe me when I say that this isn't something I can snap myself out of. I try very hard to fight against my depression and live a normal life. I fight a battle to live every day when I'm down, which has been 3 days out of 4 for the past 2 years. I haven't given up or lost hope, I truly believe that I will get better soon. Soon could be anytime ranging from a few months to a few years, but I'm willing to wait. I know theres light at the end of the tunnel and I've come to terms with whats wrong with me. It's just that my dad's attitude is very destructive and makes me feel like I'm not trying to help myself. He doesn't spend much time around me, I live away from home. Any of the people who spend alot of time around me could tell you how hard I try.

The others

I understand that my dad is only trying to help. I've given him reams of information on depression and how it effects people, as well as had a joint session with my present pychiatrist on the subject. Neither has helped him to change his attitude. His way of thinking is very much "old school". He's gotten better and is improving in alot of aspects of his opinion of depression. He know acknowledges at least to some level that depression is not laziness. He still lapses back into this line of thinking from time to time though.

I deal with most of his phone calls calmly and don't fight about what he says or disagree with him. I promise to try what he suggests. When what he suggests fails he gets upset with me for failing, not seeing that there is a reason why I can't motivate myself.

I've ignored what he says for over 7 years, and tried to belittle his negative comments in my mind so that they don't upset me. I dealt with my depression completely on my own for years and it is only recently(in the last year or two) that I brought my parents into it so that they could understand that I have a problem. And because I could no longer hide the effects of the depression on my life.

The only reason that I tried to finish college again this year was because he desperately wanted me to finish. All my doctors thought I was being stupid going back into a stressful enviroment, but I ignored them and didn't pay and heed and tried to do what he wanted anyways. It's not ended up well, and the college is making me split my year between two years with me doing no exams this year because basically they are worried for me and don't think I'm able to do them. My mother thinks that this is a great idea and that it is the right thing to do in my situation. My father blames me for this happening and basically tells me that I'm a failure for doing this.

I'm in a postition where my father is having a very negative effect on my efforts to improve my situation and get better. I've tried so many things to help him understand and I'm faced with sitting him down and trying to explain it to him, but I fear that that wouldn't go down well.

Thank you all for your replies.

MizzKattt

nesf, I am very glad you are seeking professional help to get you through this. Regardless of what your father thinks or I think or the boards thinks, you have to do what you can to make your life better. That in itself is a choice you have control of and in my humble opinion, you have made a good one. I'm glad you recognized you couldn't do this on your own therefore looked for an outside source. That is a very powerful decision.

So by your second post, I gather your main quandary is not with your depression. It sounds as if you are taking steps to mend that. It sounds as if your dilemma is that you feel you are failing your father or are worried he feels you are failing him. As I have said, I have no personal experience with depression. I will leave that to the experts. I do, however, have MUCH experience in disappointing a parent with high expectations. One might say I am a bit of a pro.

So what do you do? How do you repair your relationship with your father? Is it important enough for you to worry about with all of your other concerns to take precedent?

I can only tell you what I do to combat disappointing my mother and still remain intact. I use humor. Pleasing her is unattainable. Her demands are unachievable. I accept what she says and smile to myself. I know she thinks she’s right. I know she doesn’t realize how impossible her expectations are. I share a private look with my allies (my best friend, my sisters, my dad) when she says something over the top. If no one is there then I shrug my shoulders and wait out her rants. I’ve even grown fond of them. They are the best way she can say she loves me. Every negative word, every negative comment, every insult, I know she is really telling me she cares and wants a better life for me. She just doesn’t know how to say it conventionally. So I humor her.

This has worked for me. I can’t say it would for you. It is just one suggestion amongst many. I do wish you the best though. I hope your relationship with your father gets better. It only has one way to go and that’s up.

b3t4

nesf wrote:

I've given him reams of information on depression and how it effects people, as well as had a joint session with my present pychiatrist on the subject.

If your father is as you say of the "old school" of thought then bringing him to a joint session with a pychiatrist will cause him to go on the defensive and to regress into a shell. He will feel like he is being under attack.

Giving people information is great and you have said that it has helped to some degree, the next step is to put a human face on that information and that human face is you, his son. Ever read the theory on how to complete a task but when you went to implement it you realised that you hadn't truly read all the theory that well and had to re-read it?? (not sure if you get me

Also, try to be a bit more positive about his achievements in understanding even if they are very small. Try to focus on the positive, as in thank him for acknowledging that you have a problem and say how much you appreciated that.

I promise to try what he suggests. When what he suggests fails he gets upset with me for failing, not seeing that there is a reason why I can't motivate myself.

Don't do this to yourself. You are setting yourself up for a fall and you know it. Sure it's easier to just agree with someone but that doesn't mean it's the right way to do it. You'll find that your father will gain a lot of respect for you if you don't agree with everything he says.

I've tried so many things to help him understand and I'm faced with sitting him down and trying to explain it to him, but I fear that that wouldn't go down well.

You say that sitting him down might not "go down well" but the thing is what other options do you have at this stage. Everything else didn't go down that well either so this is the final hurdle.

I would advise though that if you are going to take the "sit him down and talk to him" approach that you have some support to go to after yeer chat as there is a potential for a conversation like that to cause you some amount of upset which is not what you want.

A.

Santa Claus

As Beruthiel says your dad is old school. My father was the same at first.

He's in his late 60's and was a garda for all his adult life so he'd heard every excuse going and assumed that my depression was an exucse for my lack of action or desire to motivate myself.
When I was first diagnosed a few years ago, he'd say things like "have you tried getting more fresh air" or "so and so in the golf club swears that using your mobile phone too much can cause depression".

Then as my situation detiroated he got more annoyed about it.
I believe his anger was partly because he felt so unable to help me, and your father might have similar feelings (old school men tend to believe if they can't fix something then it's not broken in the first place).

Anyway, I managed to persuade him to go to an aware lecture in St Pat's (don't know where you're based but I'm sure aware have a meeting somehwere not too far from you) and it opened his eyes to see normal people who were suffering from depression (think he expected to see "layabouts" and "wasters"). He came home and apologised to me, couldn't believe that he was speaking to a GP who suffers from depression at the meeting.

Anyway after that experience he took himself off to the library and tried reading up on depression and now he has a much more supportive understanding although he'll still give me a metaphorical kick up the @ss every so often when i need one.

nesf

Santa Claus wrote:

As Beruthiel says your dad is old school. My father was the same at first.

He's in his late 60's and was a garda for all his adult life so he'd heard every excuse going and assumed that my depression was an exucse for my lack of action or desire to motivate myself.
When I was first diagnosed a few years ago, he'd say things like "have you tried getting more fresh air" or "so and so in the golf club swears that using your mobile phone too much can cause depression".

Then as my situation detiroated he got more annoyed about it.
I believe his anger was partly because he felt so unable to help me, and your father might have similar feelings (old school men tend to believe if they can't fix something then it's not broken in the first place).

Anyway, I managed to persuade him to go to an aware lecture in St Pat's (don't know where you're based but I'm sure aware have a meeting somehwere not too far from you) and it opened his eyes to see normal people who were suffering from depression (think he expected to see "layabouts" and "wasters"). He came home and apologised to me, couldn't believe that he was speaking to a GP who suffers from depression at the meeting.

Anyway after that experience he took himself off to the library and tried reading up on depression and now he has a much more supportive understanding although he'll still give me a metaphorical kick up the @ss every so often when i need one.

I've heard the exact same things from my dad, "You need to get out more", "You need to get more air", "Your lifestyle is what causes this".

I've considered taking him to an aware meeting but he considers all forms of help groups and places set up to help people with depression as a waste of time. He is strongly opposed to me going to them. I doubt I could convince him to come along with me to a meeting. He already has alot of problems with such things and I don't think he's going to be open minded about it.

Thanks for the suggestion though.

Santa Claus

Well maybe he just neds to be slowly coaxed out of his denial (maybe denial is too strong a word...ignorance would be better).
But remember that each time he has a little rant at you on the phone telling you to snap out of it etc....that this is because he loves you and wants to see you better. It may not be helpful for you to experience these rants (I remember they often made me feel worse afterwards), but they are proof that he loves you and is genuinely concerned.

I'm going out on a limb here but based on what my father has told me he acted like this because he felt helpless to make me better and also in "his day" things like mental health weren't discussed. Perhaps you father feels the same.

My Dad was also very anti me taking my medication as he thought this was weakness on my part that I needed "drugs" to fight it but he learnt through aware that depression isn't something you choose how to be.
Also my dad initially saw counsellors/psychiatrists etc as people who "profited" from depression and so it was in their best interest to make people think they were depressed, however when he realised that aware were a charity and made no money out of me he saw them as being more impartial than doctors/counsellors and was more willing to listen to them.

Even if you could just get some of the pamphlets from aware and sit down with him and read one it might start to chip away at his wall of ignorance !

Fell free to PM me if you ever want to chat about it.

Santa