Burning Times

solas

someone passed this onto me some years ago, just rediscovered it. I suppose it's just a rememberance of times gone by and was appropriate for this forum.

In the cool evening they used to gather neath the stars in the meadow
circled near the oak tree
at the times appointed by the seasons of the earth and the phases of the moon
in the centre often stood a woman equal with the others respected for her worth
one of the many we called the witches, the healers, the teachers of the wisdom of the earth
people grew in the knowledge she gave them, herbs to heal their bodies
smells to make their spirits whole, hear them chanting incantations
calling for the wise ones celebrating in dance and song

Those who came to power through domination
bonded in theirworship of Jesus on the cross
They sought control over all people demanding allegiance to the Chruch of Rome
and the pope commenced the inquisition, it was war against women
whose powers were feared in this holocaust
this century of evil nine million European women died
and the tale is told of those who by the hundreds holding hands together
chose their deaths in the sea
chanting the praises of mother Goddess
a refusal of betrayal, women were dying to be free

Now the earth is a witch
and still we burn her
stripping her down with mining and the poison of our wars
still the earth to us is a healer, a teacher and a mother
As a weaver of a web of light that keeps us alive
She gives us the vision to see through the chaos
She gives us our courage
it is our will to survive.


any one any idea where this originated or if there is any particular sentiment or meaning it holds. (ie: is it a part of a ritual?)
<edit: just thought I should mention, after each verse, chanting incantations, there are the names of several goddess Isis demetre etc..I just didn't want to put them in)

Talliesin

solas wrote:

someone passed this onto me some years ago, just rediscovered it. I suppose it's just a rememberance of times gone by and was appropriate for this forum.

This is largely based on the understanding of the witchcrazes that came from the work of Matilda Gage in the 19th Century, and is rather at odds with what we now know of the period.

solas wrote:

Those who came to power through domination
bonded in theirworship of Jesus on the cross

The early Christian church didn't believe in the existence of Witchcraft or the efficacy of magic. As such they urged secular leaders to abolish anti-Witchcraft laws (more specifically, laws on certain uses of magic) or reduce the penalties. You could even be tried for heresy for accusing someone of Witchcraft.
When the Church changed its position it still was frequently a force that calmed rather than provoked the witchcrazes.

solas wrote:

They sought control over all people demanding allegiance to the Chruch of Rome

The reformed churches were as culpable as that of Rome. The worse trouble spots were often those places where those two Christian factions fought for power and tensions were hence high.

solas wrote:

and the pope commenced the inquisition,

The Inquisition was charged with dealing with Christian heretics. The exception of their being behind the expulsion of the Jews from Spain was on the basis that they were blaming the Jews for converting people who had converted from Judaism to Catholicism back to Judaism.
The Inquisition frequently stopped witchcrazes, especialy after they claimed that dealing with witches was their job, but refused to actually do so.

solas wrote:

it was war against women

There was definitely a gendered, sexual politics aspect to many crazes. However the overall phenomon of witchcrazes did not particularly target women - some crazes had a more balanced demographic amongst the victims and some notable cases had more male than female victims (in particular in a craze in Iceland some 90% of the victims were male).

solas wrote:

whose powers were feared in this holocaust

Using the term "Holocaust" is of course a rhetorical reference to the murder of millions of people, mainly Jews, by the Nazis. It is unnecessary even if you believed the version of events Gage put forward (likewise the phrase "Never Again the Burning" echoing the anti-Nazi slogan "Never Again").

solas wrote:

this century of evil nine million European women died

40,000 to 60,000 people, the exact gender balance of which is unclear but largely balanced, and most likely closer to the 40,000 mark than the 60,000 mark. Certainly no more than 100,000 at the outside.

solas wrote:

and the tale is told of those who by the hundreds holding hands together
chose their deaths in the sea
chanting the praises of mother Goddess
a refusal of betrayal, women were dying to be free

It is indeed. There is no evidence to support it though.
It is possible that some of those who died where Pagans of some form or another, particularly during the earlier parts of the period in question. At the very least though the vast majority where Christians who were completely innocent of the charges. The only mother they would have prayed to at that time would have been the Christian Virgo Maria.

solas wrote:

Now the earth is a witch
and still we burn her

The punishment for Witchcraft varied considerably from time to time and from place to place. In the earlier period of the Church deciding that there was indeed such a think as Witchcraft one would most often be fined or sentenced to a public penance.
When there was execution it wasn't always by burning. In England, Wales and Ireland it was more often by hanging. The exception being if the accused was also convicted of treason or petty treason (a woman plotting to kill her husband was guilty of petty treason). Of the four people executed for Witchcraft in Ireland only one was burned.

solas wrote:

stripping her down with mining and the poison of our wars
still the earth to us is a healer, a teacher and a mother
As a weaver of a web of light that keeps us alive
She gives us the vision to see through the chaos
She gives us our courage
it is our will to survive.

A fair point.

solas wrote:

is any particular sentiment or meaning it holds

Feminist authors Andrea Dworkin and Mary Daly studied Gage's account of the Burning Times (and fair enough, it was the accepted scholarly view of events at the time) and argued it was a matter of gender politics (and fair enough, even now that is a perspective worth examining in many of the incidents).
At the same time Wicca and forms of Pagan Witchcraft derived from it were growing in open popularity, and at the time the view of the period held by most Witches was also that which came from Gage's work.
There was also a common belief between many in these two groups in a prehistoric pan-global matriarchal religion (the Witches got this from the works of Margaret Murray, the Feminists from Frederick Engels and later also from Murray).
Many people, mainly women but not entirely, were influenced by both strands simultaneously.
Shortly after the tendencies within the liberal/progressive political groupings became concerned about the damage being done to the environment by commercial activity, and this view was also combined into the thinking of some who were combining Feminism and Witchcraft.

The above poem (or song?) expresses the views of such people.

Myself, I think the combination of Feminism and Witchcraft was damaging to both Feminism and Witchcraft.

Talliesin

solas wrote:

<edit: just thought I should mention, after each verse, chanting incantations, there are the names of several goddess Isis demetre etc..I just didn't want to put them in)

Isis Astarte Diana Hecate Demeter Kali Inanna

The main body of the poem is credited to one Charles Murphy, but I've seen that chant credited to someone else (can't remember who, but she definitely wasn't called Charlse ).

AFAIK it comes from the Dianic tradition of Witchcraft. I quite like it, though it tends to be used by groups that are completely Goddess-focussed (I prefer more balance than that) and some of the airs used with it suck.

One notable use is Inkubus Sukkubus's song Witches (part I) (which is a bit silly really, but I like it anyway).

solas

great response, thanks

Myself, I think the combination of Feminism and Witchcraft was damaging to both Feminism and Witchcraft.

made me laugh a bit...I woul have to agree though. I prefer something more balanced myself.

akari no ryu

Christy moore sings a savage version of it.
It's actually quite catchy and he makes it sound appropriately catchy.

On the actual topic of the burning times, I blame silver raven wolf. It's all her fault, she actually tells people in her books that they were intentional and about wicca (not witchcraft mind you) and fear and ooooh 1337 magick3ek (the 3 is silent) skills.

When talking to a wiccan or pagan of any variety, if they mention the burning times, or evil christians oppressing them, I instantly loose respect. Mostly because I was a fluff once. *b*

Talliesin

akari no ryu wrote:

Christy moore sings a savage version of it.
It's actually quite catchy and he makes it sound appropriately catchy.

I checked it out recently, it seemed a bit po-faced tbh. For songs on that topic I think I prefer Inkubus Sukkubus' "Witch Hunt" - check out the wonderfully melodramatic intro!

akari no ryu wrote:

On the actual topic of the burning times, I blame silver raven wolf. It's all her fault, she actually tells people in her books that they were intentional and about wicca (not witchcraft mind you) and fear and ooooh 1337 magick3ek (the 3 is silent) skills.

Well, she doesn't help matters. It's worth remembering though that Matilda Gage's version of events was the the best historical understanding of the witch crazes at one point, and that the oldest Craft elders certainly believed them (it's not believing that 9 million people, mainly women, were killed by the Church that's foolish, it's believing it when we now have much more in the way of academic historical research published in a form accessible to a general readership available to us to suggest otherwise) as such it's worth studying the Gage version not as history, but as the history of history since it informed the thinking of so many who went before us (including the likes of Gardner and Sanders). For that matter, I don't think Feminist analysis of the crazes should be abandoned either, I think it's important to understand how gender often did play a role, for example, while we now know that the Malleus Maleficarium wasn't as significant an influence on the crazes as a whole as was once believed, it is still a deeply misogynistic work that did get published and did influence some involved in the prosecution and trying of suspected Witches (I do still dislike the idea that Feminism and Witchcraft should be joined at the hip though)

akari no ryu wrote:

When talking to a wiccan or pagan of any variety, if they mention the burning times, or evil christians oppressing them, I instantly loose respect. Mostly because I was a fluff once. *b*

Two words - "Hate Cookies":

It's not to say that Pagan's don't get discriminated against, but really what discrimination there is becomes harder to fight against when people cry wolf about it. And really, most of the discrimination is on the basis of people thinking we're a bit loopy more than anything else.

ancathach

where did you get the cartoon- LMAO- too true!!

Brian

Rothen

Talliesin wrote:

most of the discrimination is on the basis of people thinking we're a bit loopy more than anything else.

you mean you arent in a padded cell like me?

Nevyn

your in a padded cell with the interweb hmmmmmm nice.

Adjusting to seeing and experiecing the world arround you in that seems to be a differnt way to everyone else can be hard.

Talliesin

Talliesin wrote:

Isis Astarte Diana Hecate Demeter Kali Inanna

The main body of the poem is credited to one Charles Murphy, but I've seen that chant credited to someone else (can't remember who, but she definitely wasn't called Charlse ).

Came across it the other day, it was Deena Metzger and Caitlin Mullin.

Talliesin

ancathach wrote:

where did you get the cartoon

The article on Christianity on Why Wiccans Suck, who in turn got it from Kung Fu For Dubious Ends.