Speeding prosecutions could be in doubt

Our man in Havana

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0214/speeding.html

Game over it would seem

Thousands of prosecutions for speeding could be in doubt following a High Court decision today which found that the laser gun used by Gardaí to monitor speed does not comply with road traffic legislation because it does not produce a written or permanent record.

A High Court opinion was sought by District Judge Leo Malone following submissions made to him in a case in Carrick on Shannon District Court in Co Leitrim.

Motorist Frank Donlon from Ard na Cassa, Dublin Road, Longford was detected by laser gun travelling at 63 miles per hour in a forty mile zone

Mr Donlon was stopped and handed a fixed charge fine of €80. He did not pay the fine and was summoned to appear at Shannon District Court.

Evan O'Dwyer, solicitor for Mr Donlon, argued that since the laser gun used by the Gardaí was incapable of producing a permanent record of the recorded speed it was incapable of complying with the provisions of the Road Traffic Act 2002.

When Judge Malone indicated he would dismiss the summons, the prosecuting Garda asked him to state a case to the High Court.

Today, the court was asked to give its opinion on two questions

Firstly, the court was asked if the laser gun, which does not produce a written or permanent record, meets the requirements of section 21(1) and (3) of the Road Traffic Act 2002. The High Court answered that it does not.

Also, the High Court was asked if the word 'record' contained in the relevant section of the act requires a formal permanent record from speed detection device to establish prime facie proof of the offence in accordance with Section 21. To this question the Court answered yes.

The High Court response to these questions could cast doubt on prosecutions for speeding offences in District Courts across the country.

alleepally

Looks like it alright, very interesting

alleepally

Just looking at the detail of the law and the case mentioned in the report. Are there different types of speed detection devices used by the Gardai. The one above is a laser gun - surely the camera ones have a printed photograph which is then a record, no?

Our man in Havana

The only ones that give a print out are the cameras and gatso vans. Muldoon in the car or behind the hedge is fecked now

Seth Brundle

I believe from reliable sources that there are a few hairdryer type detectors that can print out a receipt and these are based in the Louth area.

As for the cases, these were cases dealt with under the road traffic act 2002. This has been superseeded by the recently released act (2004). Read this... - in other words, if you are pulled over tomorrow don't start demanding a receipt!

Blitzkrieger

Damnit - have to ease up that right foot a bit.

Seth Brundle

hang on, that article may not be fully correct as it seems that the recent update to the legislation as todays Oirish Times states:-

While new legislation came into effect last month with a view to addressing the "loophole" which led to yesterday's decision, legal sources have doubt whether it achieves that objective and have predicted large numbers of legal challenges to future speeding prosecutions

Nonetheless I still wouldn't start getting stroppy with a garda at the side of the road till I was 100% sure!

seamus

If anyone's interested:

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/bills28/acts/2004/a4404.pdf

unkel

That loophole was closed a while ago. RTE are a bit retarded. The guards don't need to give you a receipt. If they say you were speeding, it's legal proof that you were speeding...

Alun

unkel wrote:

That loophole was closed a while ago. RTE are a bit retarded. The guards don't need to give you a receipt. If they say you were speeding, it's legal proof that you were speeding...

Wasn't there a thread here a few weeks ago about someone who was stopped on the N11 and when he asked to see the display on the gun it read much lower than what the guard had told him? If a printed receipt can stop this kind of nonsense then all well and good.

Our man in Havana

I will on principle refuse to pay any speeding tickets until the whole thing is clarified one way or another. The best procedure to adopt is to respectfully as the garda for a printout, if he refuses thats fine just note the time etc and sit tight.

BrianD

Judges decision is a disgrace. Hopefully, the loophole will be closed as a matter of urgency. With all due respect Alun, I view your story as an urban legend. The majority of people aren't in court because of somesort of miscarriage of justice. They have been caught and don't have the balls to accept their punishment and get on with it.

Just as the enforcement of speed limits needs to be widespread and consistent, the punishment needs to be doled out swiftly, fairly and with finality.

Boggle

Judges decision is a disgrace. Hopefully, the loophole will be closed as a matter of urgency. With all due respect Alun, I view your story as an urban legend. The majority of people aren't in court because of somesort of miscarriage of justice. They have been caught and don't have the balls to accept their punishment and get on with it.

Just as the enforcement of speed limits needs to be widespread and consistent, the punishment needs to be doled out swiftly, fairly and with finality.

SIt Fido!! Gooood dawg!...

No offence mate but I'm not a revenue generator for the govt and wont be treated as such. If you want to prosecute me for a nothing crime then you had better dot your I's and cross tour T's cos I will use my right to fight it.

If I am driving in a dangerous manner then fair enuff, but to say that I am a few miles over some ill-conceived limit is BullSh1t!

Our man in Havana

Boggle wrote:

SIt Fido!! Gooood dawg!...

No offence mate but I'm not a revenue generator for the govt and wont be treated as such. If you want to prosecute me for a nothing crime then you had better dot your I's and cross tour T's cos I will use my right to fight it.

If I am driving in a dangerous manner then fair enuff, but to say that I am a few miles over some ill-conceived limit is BullSh1t!

Amen Brother!

Automan

Boggle wrote:

SIt Fido!! Gooood dawg!...

No offence mate but I'm not a revenue generator for the govt and wont be treated as such. If you want to prosecute me for a nothing crime then you had better dot your I's and cross tour T's cos I will use my right to fight it.

If I am driving in a dangerous manner then fair enuff, but to say that I am a few miles over some ill-conceived limit is BullSh1t!

Totally agree.

Eoin

alleepally wrote:

Just looking at the detail of the law and the case mentioned in the report. Are there different types of speed detection devices used by the Gardai. The one above is a laser gun - surely the camera ones have a printed photograph which is then a record, no?

Do the speed guns on the tripods not take a picture? I think that the guard just snaps away with it and you get the fine in the post, rather than pull you over.

Boggle

Do the speed guns on the tripods not take a picture? I think that the guard just snaps away with it and you get the fine in the post, rather than pull you over.

heh heh, another potential flaw in the system as a clever barristor will argue that summonsing in retrospect impairs a drivers ability to defend himself as they might not be able to recall the event by the time they get the ticket. At least when you get pulled over you can argue it on the spot and you will remember the incident/defence.

Eoin

Boggle wrote:

heh heh, another potential flaw in the system as a clever barristor will argue that summonsing in retrospect impairs a drivers ability to defend himself as they might not be able to recall the event by the time they get the ticket. At least when you get pulled over you can argue it on the spot and you will remember the incident/defence.

That logic applies to all Gatso vans and fixed speed cameras - I can't see those being binned. sadly.

Boggle

Unfortunately for revenue generation/gardai the law isn't always concerned with whats easiest for them...

...remember I did say it was only a POSSIBLE flaw in the system. But one which I honestly believe could be argued sucesfully.

Seth Brundle

eoin_s wrote:

Do the speed guns on the tripods not take a picture? I think that the guard just snaps away with it and you get the fine in the post, rather than pull you over.

as per my earlier post...
I believe from reliable sources that there are a few hairdryer type detectors that can print out a receipt and these are based in the Louth area.

All others require you to have a roadside chat.

Eoin

kbannon wrote:

as per my earlier post...
I believe from reliable sources that there are a few hairdryer type detectors that can print out a receipt and these are based in the Louth area.

All others require you to have a roadside chat.

I am not sure that's the case - I have seen guards on their own in Dublin with a camera fixed to a tripod beside their car, as opposed to a hand held hairdryer type and never pulling anyone in, I would imagine that these take photos and are processed later on...

Seth Brundle

I have seen something similar also but a garda friend recently told me of this.
Maybe what he meant was that they are all based in Louth nowadays.
K.

BrianD

Boggle wrote:

heh heh, another potential flaw in the system as a clever barristor will argue that summonsing in retrospect impairs a drivers ability to defend himself as they might not be able to recall the event by the time they get the ticket. At least when you get pulled over you can argue it on the spot and you will remember the incident/defence.

Why does the samesystem work effectively in many other countries? Why not here? Because we Irish have an inability to accept that we break the law and accept our punishment. Oddly in countries such as Australia where it does work, they have a road fatality rate a fraction of those in Ireland. Yes, speed checks need to be more widespread but if you are caught accept it. This guy in Longford was doing allegedly doing 60 in a 40 zone. This man was not suggesting that the speed gun was inaccurate merely that it didn't produce a receipt. Having said that, perhaps the Aussie practice of putting a sign on the road (Police: Your speed has been checked) might counteract the arguement in the quote.

The Clown Man

God, I hope there is a loophole; I got my first ticket in 7 years of driving on Wolfe Tone Quay there a few weeks back. I asked for some sort of reciept but was told there was none.

I was doing 43mph in a 31mph zone - a bit harsh imo and EVERYONE manages to sneak above the limit coming off the heuston bridge and down the quays. Thats why there was 3 cars pulled over there when I got pulled and 2 more cars and a motorbike pulled in the time it took for the guard to write in his little book.

Boggle

I've seen them in Clonmel as well (out by showerings). What you are referring to kbannon is the handheld speed guns which can print out the time and speed you were doing, The tripod things are cameras which will give a photo ... although I've never had to test that theory.

Boggle

Clownman - was the ticket written in kph or mph? Basically did they scribble out the miles on the ticket and write in kilometers? If they did then this is tampering and may not be permissible... you'll have to check with a solicitor though.

BrianD

Boggle wrote:

SIt Fido!! Gooood dawg!...

No offence mate but I'm not a revenue generator for the govt and wont be treated as such. If you want to prosecute me for a nothing crime then you had better dot your I's and cross tour T's cos I will use my right to fight it.

If I am driving in a dangerous manner then fair enuff, but to say that I am a few miles over some ill-conceived limit is BullSh1t!

I have never read so much rubbish in my life!!! A nothing crime? What on earth are you talking about? Boggle it is your approach to road safety that explains why we have a ridiculously high death and injury rates on our roads. Never mind our massive insurance premiums. The speed limits in Ireland are no different to those set in other countries. The small and unremarkable number of speed limits that could be reviews are insignificant and a red herring perpetuated by those carelessly drive their cars i.e. you.

BrianD

The Clown Man wrote:

God, I hope there is a loophole; I got my first ticket in 7 years of driving on Wolfe Tone Quay there a few weeks back. I asked for some sort of reciept but was told there was none.

I was doing 43mph in a 31mph zone - a bit harsh imo and EVERYONE manages to sneak above the limit coming off the heuston bridge and down the quays. Thats why there was 3 cars pulled over there when I got pulled and 2 more cars and a motorbike pulled in the time it took for the guard to write in his little book.

Bit harsh why? It's a city street with a residential element, a national museum close by, plenty of merging traffic and close to one of the busiest rail stations in Ireland. Plus you were 12 miles over the limit - it's not exactly slipping over the limit by a few miles. Fair cop I would have said.

Seth Brundle

BrianD wrote:

The small and unremarkable number of speed limits that could be reviews are insignificant and a red herring perpetuated by those carelessly drive their cars i.e. you.

maybe so but I would also argue that many speed traps are set on roads have speed limits that need to be reviewed.

Eoin

The speed limits in Ireland are no different to those set in other countries. The small and unremarkable number of speed limits that could be reviews are insignificant

The point is that in other countries there tend to be speed traps where the police think it is dangerous to speed. Instead, over here they just go where the know they will catch people breaking the speed limit: on roads where it is not dangerous to do so.

For example; UCD bypass (60KMPH), N11 at Loughlinstown (50KMPH on a dual carriageway, even though there is an 80KMPH limit in between these two sections )

If there were more signs saying "Speed traps ahead" where there actually are speed traps, then people will slow down - and that should be the point of the whole thing, not giving people tickets and making money from fines.

The Clown Man

No I was translating from kmph to mph cause it sound so much more in kmph!

And BrianD, I do not contend that I was speeding, I was actually suprised I was becasue I am not a fast driver. It's just that I was travelling in front of the flow of traffic (all moving the same speed as me) and there was a guy pulling up to overtake on the right. No doubt I was speeding but it just seems to be one of those places where the natural flow of the road takes you above the limit.

Having said that, apart from asking why I didn't get some sort of a reciept, I was not being contentious at all.

And now it looks as though if I do contend the ticket, the district court judge will have no coice but to follow the precedent of the High Court and dismiss it.

Our man in Havana

And now it looks as though if I do contend the ticket, the district court judge will have no coice but to follow the precedent of the High Court and dismiss it.

Excatly

Blitzkrieger

My goodness that's a fine big stallion BrianD

I would agree with you when speed limits are resonable. I'd love to see a Garda with a speed gun outside my nephew's school every morning and every evening when there's assholes in vans rushing through at 50mph+. I'd love to kill every Garda I see on the 1/4mile straight of dual-carriageway near my house or on the ballincollig bypass. 60mph is a retarded speed for those roads. Even if it was a motorway it would still be too low.

The AA have done surveys on this in the UK. People won't stick to the speed limit when they believe it is too low unless they fear prosecution. If people don't understand the reasons for limits they won't obey them. We need better driver training so people will slow down when they should.

The number one cause of accidents is poor observation when making a right turn. The second most common cause is failure to yield at traffic lights or stop signs. Inappropriate speed is a distant third. "Speed kills" is the propaganda they feed you to generate revenue while avoiding the real issues. People just don't get enough driver training.

Boggle

I have never read so much rubbish in my life!!! A nothing crime? What on earth are you talking about? Boggle it is your approach to road safety that explains why we have a ridiculously high death and injury rates on our roads. Never mind our massive insurance premiums. The speed limits in Ireland are no different to those set in other countries. The small and unremarkable number of speed limits that could be reviews are insignificant and a red herring perpetuated by those carelessly drive their cars i.e. you.

Ah but your theory is flawed... 8 years of driving 20-odd K a year on bad roads without so much as a scrape or a speeding ticket is proof plenty of that. No offence mate - but dont accuse me of being a dangerous driver without something to back it up with.

Its the likes of you that let this present govt do exactly what they want with motorists by mindlessly swallowing every brick they shovel.

The number one cause of accidents is poor observation when making a right turn. The second most common cause is failure to yield at traffic lights or stop signs. Inappropriate speed is a distant third. "Speed kills" is the propaganda they feed you to generate revenue while avoiding the real issues. People just don't get enough driver training.

Exactly. Do you even read other people's posts BrianD - or do you just dismiss out of hand the facts that you dislike???

BrianD3

Boggle wrote:

I've seen them in Clonmel as well (out by showerings). What you are referring to kbannon is the handheld speed guns which can print out the time and speed you were doing, The tripod things are cameras which will give a photo ... although I've never had to test that theory.

AFAIK, no radar (hairdryer) guns have cameras, therefore if the gardai catch you speeding with one of these they have to intercept you. Also, the majority of laser guns do not have cameras either so the same thing applies. Laser guns are usually mounted on tripods but can also be handheld. Anyway, a small number of these laser guns *do* have cameras fitted. There was a picture of one of these on the old speedtraps.nu website, the camera is quite noticeable as it is a separate device on top of the laser gun.

BrianD3

the evil belly

Blitzkrieger wrote:

I'd love to see a Garda with a speed gun outside my nephew's school every morning and every evening when there's assholes in vans rushing through at 50mph+. I'd love to kill every Garda I see on the 1/4mile straight of dual-carriageway near my house or on the ballincollig bypass. 60mph is a retarded speed for those roads. Even if it was a motorway it would still be too lo

i couldn't agree more. i'm living in ballincollig and i've never seen a speed trap in the village or on the back road yet as soon as the bypass opened there's a speed trap there at least once a week. can anyone figure out why it's not a motorway? look to me like it was built as one and there's several alternate routes too so that can't be the reason

edmund_f

Blitzkrieger wrote:

The number one cause of accidents is poor observation when making a right turn. The second most common cause is failure to yield at traffic lights or stop signs. Inappropriate speed is a distant third. "Speed kills" is the propaganda they feed you to generate revenue while avoiding the real issues. People just don't get enough driver training.

do you have a copy of the source of this research?

"Speed kills" is true, as the goverment are only interested in 'headline' statistics. i.e. the number of people killed, nothing else.

totally agree with all you say.

lomb

The Clown Man wrote:

No I was translating from kmph to mph cause it sound so much more in kmph!

And BrianD, I do not contend that I was speeding, I was actually suprised I was becasue I am not a fast driver. It's just that I was travelling in front of the flow of traffic (all moving the same speed as me) and there was a guy pulling up to overtake on the right. No doubt I was speeding but it just seems to be one of those places where the natural flow of the road takes you above the limit.

Having said that, apart from asking why I didn't get some sort of a reciept, I was not being contentious at all.

And now it looks as though if I do contend the ticket, the district court judge will have no coice but to follow the precedent of the High Court and dismiss it.

i dont think he will, they changed the law did they not recently meaning they dont need a receipt.

Seth Brundle

On a similar note:-
http://www.nsc.ie/RoadSafety/RoadSafetyIssues/
According to this:-
* driver error accounts for over 80% of all fatal and injury crashes
* Excessive or inappropriate speeding is the cause of a quarter of all fatal crashes each year (it later mentions that 40% of fatal accidents are caused by excessive or inappropriate speed)
* Drink driving is a factor in over one third of all fatal crashes in Ireland
As Im not sure whether speeding accounts for 25% or 40% Im assuming then a figure of midway (a third). Now compare the amount of enforcement of this third of contributory factors against the third caused by drink driving - there is a significant difference. I regularly see speed traps - saw one this morning on the N4 at liffey valley (green van catching outbound vehicles). I do not recall the last time I saw a checkpoint for drink driving!

The site also mentions the main contributoyy factors for 2001
Driver Error - 82%
Pedestrian Error - 11%
Road Factors - 4%
Environmental Factors - 2%
Vehicle Factors - 1%
Total - 100%
Given these stats, it is imperitave that a proper driving test is put in place and that drivers abilities are checked on a regular basis. It is lso imperitave that driving whilst distracted (e.g. using mobile phones) should be properly enforced.

Boggle

i dont think he will, they changed the law did they not recently meaning they dont need a receipt.

According to the news the new legislation is as open to a challenge as the last.

I think it came into effect on the 10th of last month and stated that although a printout is not necessary, they do have to show the driver the readout on the gun. All you have to say is that he didn't.

lomb

Boggle wrote:

According to the news the new legislation is as open to a challenge as the last.

I think it came into effect on the 10th of last month and stated that although a printout is not necessary, they do have to show the driver the readout on the gun. All you have to say is that he didn't.

fair enuf, i didnt get that bit but the garda have been known to 'lie' and if the garda in court said he did then the judge will believe him for sure.

HashSlinging

Lads, I got a ticket a while back and forgot to pay it. I sent in a cheque a few weeks after and it still hasnt been ca$hed, anyone know whats going to happen. The whole thing is going on since october.

Our man in Havana

HashSlinging wrote:

Lads, I got a ticket a while back and forgot to pay it. I sent in a cheque a few weeks after and it still hasnt been ca$hed, anyone know whats going to happen. The whole thing is going on since october.

Most probably a summons is on the way,but it should fail due to the defective legislation.

Seth Brundle

Bond-007 wrote:

Most probably a summons is on the way,but it should fail due to the defective legislation.

what defective legislation?

Our man in Havana

kbannon wrote:

what defective legislation?

Road Traffic 2002. HashSlinging was caught under the old act which has now been proven by the high court as defective. So any summons should fail.

Seth Brundle

I think the loophole under the old legislation was that a permanent record was not kept. Did it in fact go to the HC? I thought it was just the district court., and even then only one or two judges. Furthermore, hasn't HashSlinging admitted his crime by paying (even though it wasn't cashed!)?

Our man in Havana

It was appealed from the district court to the high court. If you send back the money too late they can't accept it so hence a summons.