Criminal Justice Bill 2004 Second Stage

Sparks

Just a note - the CJB is up for the second stage tomorrow in the Dail after 1630 or so. Don't forget that you can watch the debate live over the net here.
I'll post the transcript as soon as it goes up on the web.

Sparks

Okay, all that took place today was the opening speech by the Minister, a transcript of which is here, though since it's all as gaeilge, I hope your Irish is better than mine! The debate continues tomorrow and on Thursday.

Sparks

From todays Irish Times :

New Bill will give Garda extra powers

Marie O'Halloran
16/02/2005

The Minister for Justice, Mr McDowell has introduced sweeping new Garda powers in legislation designed to redress the balance of rights in society, which, he said, had "shifted too far in favour of the accused".

Introducing the Criminal Justice Bill, Mr McDowell surprisingly read the entire of his 23-page second-stage speech in Irish. It is highly unusual for a non-Irish language Bill to be read into the Dáil record entirely in Irish. The Bill aims to enhance Garda powers in criminal investigations and the Minister said that it had had a "long incubation".

The extensive new Garda powers include: increased detention periods from 12 to 24 hours; allowing a chief superintendent to sign a search warrant in exceptional circumstances; a provision for the admissibility of statements by witnesses, who subsequently refuse to testify or retract their original statements; the right to obtain some body samples such as saliva, without permission; a provision to allow for fixed penalties for lesser public order offences rather than a court case, and the right to preserve a crime scene to prevent anybody from entering a scene and interfering with or removing evidence.

The Bill, said Mr McDowell, contained "an essential updating of our law to ensure that criminal offences can be investigated and prosecuted in a way which is efficient and fair, and which meets the needs of modern society".

He is also considering further amendments to the legislation, including provisions for the electronic tagging of offenders and the statutory right of appeal to the courts for a firearms certificate to cater for elite shooters participating in sports events.

It will also require applicants for firearms certificates to prove they have secure accommodation for the weapon, and the Minister is considering increased sentences for serious firearms offences.

The Minister said there was a legitimate concern that "the rights of society to be protected take second place in the quest to ensure fairness to the suspect - that the balance has shifted too far in favour of the accused.

"I believe this is a legitimate concern which must be addressed and I am doing so in this Bill, while endeavouring to ensure that the opposite does not happen. We must always guard against the balance being shifted too far because that will lead inevitably to miscarriages of justice."

Insisting that the Bill "balances the need for effectiveness in fighting crime with the need to uphold individual rights", he said he "sought" to take the views of the Human Rights Commission into consideration, "where appropriate". The commission had not agreed with him that a case had been made for a superintendent to authorise an emergency search warrant, but the Minister argued that the provision was on the same basis as in drugs trafficking legislation.

The Human Rights Commission was also concerned about doubling arrest periods from 12 to 24 hours, but Mr McDowell denied that "increased detention powers risks violating our human rights obligations" under the European Court of Human Rights. Under existing law, intimate body samples are only allowed to be taken with written permission. The Bill allows the taking of saliva to be moved from an "intimate" to a "non-intimate" category and allows for mouth swabs to be taken which contain both saliva and body tissue and "are a valuable source of DNA".

© The Irish Times

The emphasis in there is mine - had anyone heard of the Minister taking this suggestion (which came from the NRPAI if I remember right) up before now?

jaycee

elite shooters

Eh..?

Anyone else find that a bit subjective / potentially restrictive..?

civdef

Very confusing wording all-right - no doubt another fine piece of badly constructed Irish firearms legislation in the making that will keep the courts busy in years to come....

Irishglockfan

More like some dopey reporter is parrotting somthing off a "rip&read" newswire article.Or hasn't got a clue as to what the requirements or what the firearms laws are all about.Or,more likely is trying to sensationalise a rather dreary piece on debated proposed legislation.

SIGH!! We really DO need to get a well versed PR spokesman on firearms issues,who will pass out his card/contact nr to all newsmedia services as a contact on gun related issues.Tried this myself,but maybe because I dont have a ton of three letter stringers behind my name,and am not resident behind the pale they are not intrested? :rolleyes:

fiacha

jaycee wrote:

Eh..?

Anyone else find that a bit subjective / potentially restrictive..?

i'm a bit worried about seeing the "elite" word used. hupefully it's just a dodgy translation from the transcript.

off to dig out me irish/english dictionary !

Sparks

Actual debate is just starting now (it's been held up by the Welfare Bill for the last few days).

First comment from the opposition was that most of the bill has not been put forward to the Dail and is listed as "to be added in Committee". Sound familiar to anyone?

Sparks

And section 30 (the storage of firearms bit) is already being discussed...
...and the Minister's joking about his house....
...and being told that "ordinary decent licenced gun holders" are not the problem...
...all good things being said about us here...

Sparks

Oooer, Abbeylara's medical recommendations just got mentioned... A seperate firearms bill is being called for....

Sparks

*muffled chortle*
Rule one when speaking at a microphone in Dail Eireann, folks - turn off your mobile phone

Sparks

The firearms bit is getting quite a bit of treatment from this speaker. Wish there was enough resolution on the Realplayer stream to identify him, and I missed his introduction

Sparks

Joe Costello now speaking.

civdef

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20050217.xml&Node=H7#H7

Sparks

Debate transcript is partially up here. some highlights:

Mr. J. O’Keeffe: It is farcical to conduct a Second Stage debate in the Dáil on this Bill when the Minister knows full well that the Bill that eventually emerges will, in effect, be a new Bill. I can only debate on what is before the House. I generally support the thrust of the Bill as published. However, I cannot give the Minister a blank cheque on those issues which are only in his mind at the moment. Only half the picture is before us.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe: As a countryman, I turn next to a matter which the Minister as a townie might not fully appreciate. Section 30 deals with the storage of firearms. A major reaction has been prompted in rural areas by the fact that the matter is being addressed in the context of a criminal justice Bill. Someone from within the Pale, like the Minister, may say the reaction is irrational.

Mr. McDowell: I am from outside the Pale and closer to shotguns than the Deputy thinks.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe: The Minister will be much closer to it when I am finished. I do not for a moment suggest an ordinary, decent, licensed gun holder would in any way countenance the incident to which the Minister refers. I record bluntly that I absolutely condemn it.

I suggest strongly that the Minister fails to realise in section 30 that ordinary, decent, licensed gun holders are not the problem. The rise in the incidence of the discharging of firearms revealed by Garda statistics is in no way attributable to licensed gun holders. Such people have a long record of responsibility and they take the storage of their weapons seriously. While I accept the need to set standards for the storage of weapons, we must consider the legislative context. Provisions in this area go back to the 1925 Act, which I agree is in need of major reform. The Minister himself touched on some of these issues in his speech, but there are others, including the storage of tourists’ guns. I have seen tourists come to my area with guns in the boots of their cars. While we are providing in a criminal justice Bill for the security of the firearms of decent, law-abiding citizens, we do not seem to have any provision for tourists’ guns. This is just one example. There are also the questions of the application procedure and the medical history of an applicant, an issue which arose before the Abbeylara tribunal. I want to see a separate firearms Bill. There is more than adequate reason to provide one to update and reform existing provisions.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe: Returning to the issue of firearms legislation, I will press the Minister with regard to licensed gun-holders here, of which there are approximately 200,000. These generally come from a section of the population who would probably have been referred to as yeoman stock or tenant farmers in old British times. They have a very good record with regard to crime. There are issues in terms of facilities and training and how best to train members of the family. It has been suggested that there should be provision for training facilities so that they would be able to handle their guns properly.

If there is a refusal to grant a licence, should the person know the grounds for the refusal? There are problems relating to this, because sometimes the refusal could be based on soft intelligence. It might not be in the best interests of security to make such a disclosure. Not everybody applying for such a licence would fit into the category I described.

Should there be a time limit during which the application is considered? Should medical history be a factor? There is also a question regarding proper facilities for storage of guns. There are problems in section 30, which is a bit ambiguous. It refers to “secure accommodation”. Are we speaking of a secure house or a secure, properly installed gun safe within the house? The phraseology of section 30 is itself ambiguous.

Tourists are not required to safely store their guns. Regarding the question of an appeal, it seems wrong in this day and age that there is no right of appeal if somebody is refused a gun licence. There is a certain inconsistency in the present administration of the system. That is understandable because every superintendent currently operates in isolation.

This all leads to my main point regarding the firearms issue and section 30. We should have separate legislation covering the issue in the Bill and all these other issues, some of which were touched on by the Minister in his speech. He should take the issue off the table in his closing speech. On behalf of the Opposition, I spoke to many of these people and am quite prepared to put forward views as to how we should have a modern, reformed up to date firearms Bill to cover these and other related issues.

Sparks

Coverage in today's Irish Independent:

Opposition parties call for withdrawal of Justice Bill

OPPOSITION parties have called on Justice Minister Michael McDowell to withdraw the Criminal Justice Bill introduced in the Dail this week.

Fine Gael deputy Jim O'Keeffe said there were "major deficiencies" in the Bill which he said the Minister should withdraw immediately.

He said the Minister had indicated he had major plans to "amend heavily" the Bill.

He said: "We will end up with a very different Bill and the Bill that eventually emerges will, in fact, be a new Bill."

The Fine Gael TD said it was farcical to have a debate on a Bill that would end up very different.

Labour deputy Joe Costello also said that a Bill that was likely to contain amendments which would be in excess of the substance of the original text was not the way to do business.

Minister McDowell introduced the entire Bill in Irish and Sinn Fein TD Aengus O Snodaigh, speaking in Irish, described the Bill as "draconian" saying at the core of it was "the significant extension of Garda powers".

The debate in the Dail was adjourned.

Sparks

Remainder of the debate transcript is now up.
More highlights:

Mr. J. O’Keeffe: There were bullet points in the Minister’s speech relating to his innermost thoughts about what should be added to the Bill. There was a greater number of these than bullet points relating to what is in the Bill. I can only touch on them very briefly, because it is pretty outrageous that we are here in the national Parliament debating a Criminal Justice Bill relating to quite serious issues that may or may not be in the Bill by the time it leaves the House and all we have is a one-liner which constitutes the Minister’s thoughts on a particular issue.

Mr. Costello: One of the more bizarre and unusual of the miscellaneous provisions in the Bill is in section 30, which relates to the secure accommodation of firearms. This is before we even have sight of the extra chunk of amendments which are to be made to the Bill. The section provides that a new requirement for obtaining a firearms certificate is to have available a secure place for the accommodation of the firearm. While this is an eminently suitable provision it is totally misplaced in a Criminal Justice Bill, which I hope the Minister will explain to the House on Committee Stage.

All the other conditions for securing a firearms certificate are contained in the Firearms Act 1925. Any right-minded person would amend the Firearms Act, but not the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform who must be provocative and different. He has incensed the National Association of Regional Game Councils and they are outraged at the proposal to bring them and their sporting activities within the ambit of criminal law. Approximately 200,000 members of these organisations are roaming the countryside.

The discharge of firearms with fatal results has been a major feature in criminality in today’s Ireland. However, it is illicit weaponry bought on the Internet, as indicated by Superintendent Roche in Blanchardstown——

Mr. McDowell: Firearms are also stolen from houses all over Ireland.

Mr. Costello: The vast majority are not.

Mr. McDowell: I do not accept that.

Mr. Costello: It would be an interesting debate if the Minister provided the figures on the matter. Weaponry is obtained on the Internet and is imported from the Continent in drug consignments, of which the Minister is well aware. It is also traded by Northern Ireland’s more or less redundant paramilitaries from both sides, loyalist and republican, who are also bringing some of their weaponry into this State and becoming involved in illegal activities, about which the Minister knows and articulates his position strongly. There are many dissidents at large.

The Minister needs to take urgent measures to put these illegal weapons out of circulation. However, he will not do so by bringing legitimate gun owners, who hold firearms exclusively for sporting purposes, within the domain of this criminal and draconian Bill. Rather, it should be placed within the remit of the Firearms Act 1925 so that the law will not criminalise anyone.

Sparks

The second stage continued in the Dail today, the minutes aren't up yet, but jaycee got to watch it for a while on the live webcast and apparently the debate was more oriented towards the other aspects of the bill, which we can expect more of since it's making a lot of changes to the Gardai that some think affect civil liberties.

Sparks

The minutes are up on the Oireachtas website here.

From Gerard Murphy:

On section 30, the Fine Gael spokesman on Justice, Deputy O’Keeffe, has made it clear that the party does not believe that arms control should be dealt with in the context of this Bill. Fine Gael will, if necessary, introduce a private Members’ Bill to deal with the firearms issue in a far wider and more comprehensive manner.

An interesting point from Bernard Durkan:

It is sad that in light of recent revelations, we are conducting this debate in the absence of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. If the positions were reversed and the Government parties were on this side of the House, they would be clamouring for the resignation of everybody from the Taoiseach down. There is not a word of apology or recognition from the Government benches. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform jumps around like an excited cuckoo briefing the media but then walks away in the face of the most damning criticism in the report published in the last 24 hours. It is timely that we are discussing a related issue this morning.

But I don't think he's quite the champion of legitimate shooters:

I will move on to the issue of gun law. For the past five or six years, the appearance of a variety of guns in the pursuit of crime has become commonplace. I do not know how many times this must happen before it is decided something should be done. There should be an add-on or addendum to the Bill in this regard.

A person does not saw the barrel off a shotgun to convert it into an electric razor or to use it as a telescope. It is done for a particular purpose - to kill people. I stand over the actions of the Garda Síochána in regard to a recent robbery, after which many began wondering whether firearms should have been used. The fact is that people with guns were at that place, on that day, to kill people. The guns were for no other purpose; they were not to scratch an ear but to kill people. It is tough. What resulted is what happens in that kind of situation. Apparently, at long last, the Minister suddenly realised: “Oh, gosh. There are serious guns out here. What is the problem? Let us do something about it.”

Billy Kelleher:

There is no doubt there has been an escalation of firearms crimes and that since the ceasefire in the North, some of the arms used by paramilitaries have been siphoned off to a number of serious criminal elements rather than being decommissioned. There is a proliferation of guns in society and it is a problem we should acknowledge and address. I am aware the Minister is examining the possibility of having a firearms amnesty. I would support such a measure. It was used in Britain some years ago for knives and thousands of lethal weapons were handed in voluntarily. If we had an amnesty here before we enact serious provisions in legislation to deal with people who hold illegally held firearms, it might assist in taking a number of weapons out of circulation.

I must refer to Operation Anvil and the deaths of two suspects in a post office raid. We must be conscious of the fact that if people go out one morning to raid a post office using firearms, the State has a duty to support the Garda Síochána in every way possible. They should try to apprehend the suspects without a firefight but in the event of that happening, gardaí have every right to defend themselves using lethal force if necessary. We should not jump to conclusions immediately about that. There is a mechanism in place whereby a senior Garda member can investigate such incidents. People will be satisfied with that because such an investigation should be done by an outside body. I believe more independent people should investigate such incidents but firearms are seldom used by members of the Garda Síochána. We have had two deaths recently but attacking the gardaí involved as if they were the ones who did the wrong deed on that morning is despicable. We must be supportive of the Garda. We cannot ask members of the force to take on serious hardened criminals who intimidate communities and arms of the State and then assume they overreact when they use force. If we are to be supportive of the Garda Síochána, we should be more moderate in our language and not jump to conclusions.

That was about the sum of it though, debate was adjourned (presumably to be rescheduled) at 1330.

Flattop 15

On an aside to this;regarding the firearms amnesty why were the gaurds saying in the Sunday Times two weeks ago that this was unnecessary in the Republic?Does this mean they have an actual handle on how many illegal firearms ther are around here?Also is there any concrete proof that illegal stuff from the paramilititaries is finding it's way into criminal hands?Or is it imported from war zones or reactivated stuff?Would be well worth passing these figures onto those who are debating this issue or aking them to quote where they are getting this info?