Question about Aleister Crowley

hawkmoon269

Thought this might be a good place to post this question.

I don't know if people here are familiar with Aleister Crowley, but I have read that he claimed to have successfully contacted various spirits in the course of ritual ceremonies, do people here think that he actually did this or just made up the stories up to create a legend around himself? I have an open mind on the question myself.

Talliesin

hawkmoon269 wrote:

Thought this might be a good place to post this question.

Sure, while it's probably not correct to call Crowley a Pagan (but it depends on exactly how you define your terms, and which parts of his occult career you are talking about) his influence on many forms of Paganism has been immense, as indeed it has been for many religious, spiritual and magical paths. It's hard to think of a more important religious thinker in the 20th Century CE. So I wouldn't consider it off-topic here.

hawkmoon269 wrote:

I don't know if people here are familiar with Aleister Crowley, but I have read that he claimed to have successfully contacted various spirits in the course of ritual ceremonies, do people here think that he actually did this or just made up the stories up to create a legend around himself?

That's really a whole bunch of questions at the same time.
Crowley made lots of different claims about contacting, or being contacted by various "spirits" (his most common claims were about those beings termed "angels" and termed "demons" within the Western Mystery tradition that at the time was almost entirely Judeo-Christian based (though he himself was a key source of non-Judeo-Christian perspectives on that tradition, and authored works which drew parallels between that path and others [for example, a comparison between the Qaballic Tree of Life and the I Ching]).

Now a claim to have contacted spirits generally I don't find terribly incredible, any kid with a Ouija board and a lack of caution can contact a spirit or at least convince themselves they have done so. That's neither an impressive feat, nor a particularly good idea.

At the opposite end Crowley's most significant claim in this regard is to have been contacted by "Aiswass" who then dictated Liber AL vel Legis to him, a claim comparable to having had the Koran given to you by Gabriel or the Book of Mormon given to you by Moroni. That's clearly a rather strong claim.

In between we have his claims to have performed the ritual known as "The Conversation of the Guardian Angel" which arguably isn't really contacting a spirit at all, but rather an operation upon oneself that makes one more aware of one's true will (there are plenty of other interpretations).

The workings that most matches the phrase "various spirits" is a series of workings to summon some of those beings mentioned in the Gematria and referred to in that text as "demons". Crowley himself in an introduction to that work takes a sceptical stance, that the beings are actually aspects of one's own personality and that the rituals designed to summon them are actually psychological operations in which the combination of outward acts and signs (chants, the set-up of the circle and triangle, incenses, etc.) and inward acts (the concentration) induce a psychological effect on the practitioner which the mind represents to itself as the appearance of the said demon, and that this psychological effect can be beneficial - for example if you summon a demon that is said to teach mathematics or bring wealth what actually happens is the changes you have made mentally are such as would benefit your capacity for learning mathematics or doing business.

Crowley maintained a rather sceptical view of magic for much of his magical career - at least outwardly, and a degree of scepticism is indeed important for any magical work ("am I seeing auras, or do I have retinal burn from staring at the same bloody thing for too long?"). From that perspective his claims to have contacted spirits aren't at all outlandish; not only would most complete sceptics say that one can indeed have psychological events which subjectively seem to be a case of contacting a spirit, they often argue that that is what really happened when someone insists that they did indeed contact a spirit.

On the other hand, that is neither the only view of such events around nor even the only view that Crowley has expressed (but it's often difficult determining just what the tricky bugger really thought about something). And of course he did sometimes say things as much for the effect saying it would have as any others.

So, do I think he "contacted various spirits"? Yes, frankly it's hard to perform magic as intensely as he did for as long as he did and not contact something that can be termed a "spirit".

Do I believe all his claims? Probably not. Crowley did use blinds and did make statements that were actually cryptically saying something other than their meaning at face value.

Do the spirits he contacted have an existence outside of his own head? That's one for your own religious beliefs really. I think some of them did.

hawkmoon269

Talliesin wrote:

Do the spirits he contacted have an existence outside of his own head? That's one for your own religious beliefs really. I think some of them did.

Indeed. Crowley is certainly an interesting character, I was reading up on him recently. I wonder if anyone has successfully contacted Crowley himself using an ouija board, or would that be dangerous as you appear to have advocate caution regarding the use of such devices?

Talliesin

hawkmoon269 wrote:

I wonder if anyone has successfully contacted Crowley himself using an ouija board,

I'm sure it's been tried. I'm sure some people are sure they've done so. I'd be more likely to think something was Crowley if it said "bugger off, ghosts aren't real"
There was a group that contacted a spirit that claimed to be Alex Sanders and the documentation convinced quite a few people that knew Sanders.

hawkmoon269 wrote:

or would that be dangerous as you appear to have advocate caution regarding the use of such devices?

I do indeed advocate caution. The problem with Ouija boards is that it's so easy to get something happening with them that you can get yourself into trouble quite quickly. I wouldn't say people should never use them, but I'd definitely advise a lot of caution. Anyway, I've given my views on that matter recently enough that I should just [post=2222580]link to that post[/post]

hawkmoon269

Don't worry, I'm not going to attempt to contact the spirit of Crowley any time soon (or anyone else for that matter).

You know more about this stuff than I do, and I think you are correct to advocate caution. I would agree however that there is more to the Universe than the four dimensional reality we inhabit, but I agree with you in terms of treating the claims of Crowley with a certain scepticism.

Talliesin

hawkmoon269 wrote:

You know more about this stuff than I do

Eh, maybe. I've just a tad of unease with that, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him" and all that (see, I don't even know of a Pagan equivalent to that saying, apart from the more targetted "he's full of **** sometimes").

hawkmoon269 wrote:

I agree with you in terms of treating the claims of Crowley with a certain scepticism.

You should of course treat my claims with even more scepticism

Ruadan

This is the guy Jimmy Page likes?

Read some of his stuff, its...... interesting .....to say the least

Nevyn

intresting that is one way of putting the often incomplete and plaugrised ramblings of a spoilt, self centred,unfocused, undisaplined egomanic who cared not for how he exploited others and ruined thier lives.
And to think he died a lone loney old herion addict fitting imho.

Talliesin

You know, while I disagree with Thaed's sentiments, I can't actually argue against any of her points:

Incomplete - yep.
Plagiarised - quite often (generally with the addition of an attack on the original author).
Self-Centred -mostly.
Unfocused and undisciplined - not all the time, but sometimes, yes.
Egomaniac - Hell yes.
Exploited others and ruined their lives - like a tornado in a trailer park.

I think his work is important and worth reading, but I wouldn't have bought a used car from him.

hawkmoon269

Thaed wrote:

intresting that is one way of putting the often incomplete and plaugrised ramblings of a spoilt, self centred,unfocused, undisaplined egomanic who cared not for how he exploited others and ruined thier lives.
And to think he died a lone loney old herion addict fitting imho.

Thaed, I think it is important to realise the background that Crowley grew up in, and rebelled against, i.e. ultra-fundamentalist devout Plymouth Brethren, and also more generally the environment of the times when it was very difficult to challenge Christian orthodoxy without being forced into a corner.

While he did some despicable things I think history will record a more balanced judgement.

I'm sure if we knew the real truth about some of the figures venerated by Christianity then they wouldn't seem so attractive even to Christians.

Evil Phil

Way off topic: Crowely was one of his generations formost mountaineers and achieved a then world altitude record on K2. Apparently on a solo rock-climb in Dover he got stuck 15 feet from the top he used his magical powers to levitate his way to safety. In reality the local police had to come out and lower down a rope. However its worth noting that his route still gets a grade of E1 to this day, he climbed it in the 1890's.

Talliesin

hawkmoon269 wrote:

While he did some despicable things I think history will record a more balanced judgement.

I hope so. Unfortunately the popular historical accounts of most people tend to be caricatures. For the history books to reflect that someone was both a great man and a bastard at the same time is rare.

hawkmoon269 wrote:

I'm sure if we knew the real truth about some of the figures venerated by Christianity then they wouldn't seem so attractive even to Christians.

It's possible to be Christian and also have a could knowledge of history and an ability for critical thinking. Unless you have a point about Christianity that relates to Paganism please refrain from Christian-bashing here.
If you do have a point about Christianity that relates to Paganism please strive to avoid generalisations (I refer you to point 4 in the charter).

Talliesin

Evil Phil wrote:

Way off topic: Crowely was one of his generations formost mountaineers and achieved a then world altitude record on K2.

Ah, but is it entirely off-topic when mountaineering featured so heavily in Romanticism in Germany and Romanticism was such a big influence on the modern Pagan revival?

Eh, okay no, it is totally off-topic. Interesting bit of trivia though. I think I read something about his setting a record for ascending the Eiger the "wrong" way as well. He was an early advocate of solitary climbing as safer than group climbs which is somewhat in keeping with his egotism.

hawkmoon269

Talliesin wrote:

It's possible to be Christian and also have a could knowledge of history and an ability for critical thinking. Unless you have a point about Christianity that relates to Paganism please refrain from Christian-bashing here.
If you do have a point about Christianity that relates to Paganism please strive to avoid generalisations (I refer you to point 4 in the charter).

I think your comments are absolutely ridiculous as I in no way 'bashed' Christians. I have read point 4 of the charter - please advise in what way I have offended against it. Also you appear to be a hypocrite given your own comments re the Pope in another forum. Different rules for mods, I guess.

Talliesin

hawkmoon269 wrote:

I think your comments are absolutely ridiculous as I in no way 'bashed' Christians.

Your comments strongly imply that Christians are misguided in venerating people that they would not venerate if they had better knowledge of them. I don't see whether they are misguided in this way or not relating to Paganism in any way.
You're right, "Christian-bashing" is too strong and I retract that, but it's a bit closer to it than I'd like to see here.
My experience with some other Pagan forums on the Internet makes me a bit cautious, and perhaps over-cautious, about threads/discussions heading in a direction that is not only anti-Christian but generally anti-Christian in a bloody boring way. I could see someone taking that one comment of yours, agreeing with it, and expanding on it and a few posts down the line the thread descending into pettiness.

hawkmoon269 wrote:

Also you appear to be a hypocrite given your own comments re the Pope in another forum.

That is a different forum, and I didn't say anything nasty about the Pope, just that our state shouldn't see him as any different to any other citizen of the world.
Now there are plenty of things I have to say about the Pope and his edicts that are less than complementary. But I would say those on the Lesbian, Gay & Bisexual Forum, the Politics Forum, the Humanities Forum where they would (depending on just what point I was making) be on topic, or the After Hours forum (where just about everything is on topic).

hawkmoon269 wrote:

Different rules for mods, I guess.

See, now you're just talking ****e.

meditraitor

Talliesin wrote:

My experience with some other Pagan forums on the Internet makes me a bit cautious, and perhaps over-cautious, about threads/discussions heading in a direction that is not only anti-Christian but generally anti-Christian in a bloody boring way. I could see someone taking that one comment of yours, agreeing with it, and expanding on it and a few posts down the line the thread descending into pettiness..

your right-- over-cautious

Talliesin wrote:

See, now you're just talking ****e.

This could have be dealt with in a better fashion, dont you think?

Nevyn

Look the opinion that Mods have a different set of rules is utter claptrap.
But you are right there is not need to be uncivil about some one stating it
idiotically when may be they dont know beter.

Better to use the word Claptrap then shíte and upset people.


Talliesin admitted to being "perhaps over-cautious" , and that may be his veiws
have been coloured by past experinces, but that does not give anyone the right to be snotty and condesending.

A lot of people when they start seeking , leave christain ideas behind and go out reading, looking and learning. A lot do as they have become disilusioned with the christian chruch and can be quiet bitter about it.

As a result those that do function as hosted mods here have to becareful that things dont decend into Christain bashing.
It is not a pleasant thing to see or read and there is a whole lot of things that can be discussed about the many paths of Paganism with out it.

Nevyn

Just because he had an intal strict religious up bringing does not explain him
'going off the rails'.
His privlaged background ment the had the oppertunity to study and travel.
Yes, he has had a big influence with his boby of work on the occult,
but while I will credit the work it is hugely incomplete and that irks the hell out of me.

Plus as you are never ment to undertake any of this 'work' or ritual or rite while
under the influence of drugs alchol or strong emotion how falwed are the
rituals if contructed by someone in those states ?

Talliesin

meditraitor wrote:

This could have be dealt with in a better fashion, dont you think?

Had the grand-conspiracy-of-moderators thing not already been done about once every fortnight since boards began, perhaps.

Talliesin

Thaed wrote:

Just because he had an intal strict religious up bringing does not explain him
'going off the rails'.
His privlaged background ment the had the oppertunity to study and travel.

In many ways his priveleged background explains his more dubious acts as much as his reacting against his religious upbringing, since it certainly afforded him many opportunities for decadence and for getting himself out of trouble once he'd gotten himself in it.
Jeannette Winterson had a similar upbringing in many ways (also Plymouth Brethren) and when she reacted against that the result was some wonderful literature rather than licentiousness.
In the end the person responsible for Crowley's actions, good and bad, is Crowley. I'm not dismissing the effect that ones past can have on making it relatively easy or difficult to live ethically, but in the end it comes down to oneself. One point in Crowley's favour is that he would have said the same rather than using his upbringing as an excuse.

Thaed wrote:

Yes, he has had a big influence with his boby of work on the occult,
but while I will credit the work it is hugely incomplete and that irks the hell out of me.

The corpus of material he produced is staggering. I'm not entirely sure what your complaint is here. It's incomplete, but then any research is going to lead to more research and hence be incomplete.

Thaed wrote:

Plus as you are never ment to undertake any of this 'work' or ritual or rite while
under the influence of drugs alchol or strong emotion how falwed are the
rituals if contructed by someone in those states ?

Crowley was at times extremely disciplined and focussed. But yes, other times it seems he was remarkably not and the toll must have been immense.

meditraitor

Talliesin wrote:

Had the grand-conspiracy-of-moderators thing not already been done about once every fortnight since boards began, perhaps.

apologies again for interupting discussion


This was not the reason for the small rebuke, i was just pointing out that the comment was not particularly in keeping with the forum, idealistically speaking.. maybe the fact crowley is the thread might have brought the negativness out in you....

I think the "is it cause im a moderator!!" excuse is a bit overused also..

in saying that just so youknow.. i like a lot of what you have contributed to this forum,,, :rolleyes:
just suprised at the lack of decorum

m

Nevyn

meditraitor wrote:

was not particularly in keeping with the forum, idealistically speaking..

Pagans and paganism are earth based spiritualily.
You will meet earthy people, how at times will use earthy language and you cant
get much more earthy then shíte.

Talliesin

Now at least I spelt it right so that the censor would kick in. Besides, I was being high brow and literary:

"****e and Onions" - James Joyce.

Seriously. If I'm really annoyed at someone I won't use such language, one can be much more insulting when one avoids it.

Ancient1

Thaed wrote:

Pagans and paganism are earth based spiritualily.
You will meet earthy people, how at times will use earthy language and you cant
get much more earthy then shíte.

(yet another brief interruption):

LOL - how true...first thing to make me laugh today

hawkmoon269

Thaed wrote:

Plus as you are never ment to undertake any of this 'work' or ritual or rite while
under the influence of drugs alchol or strong emotion how falwed are the
rituals if contructed by someone in those states ?

Fear not my friend, I have not the intention of undertaking rituals through the influence of drugs or alcohol. There are many different paths to follow, wouldn't you agree.

hawkmoon269

Talliesin wrote:

Your comments strongly imply that Christians are misguided in venerating people that they would not venerate if they had better knowledge of them. I don't see whether they are misguided in this way or not relating to Paganism in any way.
You're right, "Christian-bashing" is too strong and I retract that, but it's a bit closer to it than I'd like to see here.
My experience with some other Pagan forums on the Internet makes me a bit cautious, and perhaps over-cautious, about threads/discussions heading in a direction that is not only anti-Christian but generally anti-Christian in a bloody boring way. I could see someone taking that one comment of yours, agreeing with it, and expanding on it and a few posts down the line the thread descending into pettiness.

I take on board your comments and thank you for your response. I can understand your sense of caution as regards experience of other forums, however I respectfully suggest that freedom of expression should allow anyone to criticize or comment on other religious beliefs. In fact, I view this as fundamental to freedom of expression.

Having said all of that, I do not think my earlier comments in any way constituted "Christian-bashing" and I thank you for accepting this. There are many paths to the truth and all religions have an element of the truth, in my view.

Any way, I enjoy the forum and look forward to future discussions!

Nevyn

The corpus of material he produced is staggering.

Well considering it is creepy crawly Crowley I would not be at least surprised if
A necromancy book of his turned up.

I'm not entirely sure what your complaint is here. It's incomplete, but then any research is going to lead to more research and hence be incomplete.

In such cases the dubivious nature or reputatation of the person who carried out the research has to be considered. Ceremonial Magic (CM) or ritual magic (RM), by it’s very nature demands that you do or preformed to gaining understanding of it.
IT is not continuing on of ‘research’ that I would have a problem with (personally that is). You are not going to get bit on the ass by reading in most cases.
But to ensure you would have a working understanding of Crowley’s ‘work’ then you are going to have to travel what can be a dangerous path with your only map/guide written by him ( insert my opinion from my earlier post on Crowley’s character).

You would not buy a used car off him but you would use his map and rituals to go on a journey?

Hmmm how do I put this, you can read all you want about baking bread but there are something’s you will only ‘understand’ after having undergone the process of bread making, There are plenty of ways to change slightly the process to suit where you are,
And for you to screw up on your own, but if the recipe is flawed then it will never work, and if you mess up in RM it can be a lot worse then your bread not rising or burning.

I know that a lot of people consider RM or CM to be more akin to science then baking
(I know baking but after all I consider myself to be a kitchen witch.) With the rites to
Be considered as experiments carried out with controls but that is only when you have
Enough knowledge. I’d hate to get the spiritual equalivant of cancer from carrying uranium around in my Lab coat like Marie Currie did.

Rothen

Personally, i think he was a bit of a waffler, his books leave something to be desired...and certainly insane, did he summon demons? not excactly, there are so many entities to be called on, however, me not having any experience in demon summoning (slowly working my way to it) i cant excactly answer can i?

Evil Phil

I suppose one could also say that his journeys to the greater ranges, namely the Himalaya, exposed Crowley to eastern philosophies and practices like the Budda and yoga. Yoga features in his some of his magical practices iirc.

Nevyn

A lot of magical practices require the focused uncluttered headspace that can
be achieved by mediation and as some of the ( ahem in my opinion silly ) ritual magic rites rquired a long focus for long periods of time, it can be clearly seen to have been influenced by Crowely's time in the east with altered mind states achieve through fasting, standing, insense and mediation.

and it is not Crowely's going out to experience life that I have an issue with honet.
Janis Joplin had a pretty strict up brining and went off to experience life to the limit and she died of a heroin over dose too. Her choices.
But singing or preforming one of her songs is not as potentially hazardous,
as trying one of Crowely's rites.

Yes the work is unfisnihed but you cant say that it needs researching and continuing and leave it at that. To know and understand what has proceeded
in this case you must Do the rites and rituals, to change your perceptions and learn only then could anyone try and continue to expand, extrapolate or enhance the 'work' .

So you are either going to do the same stuff that made Crowely a mad man
or do the stuff written by a mad man which may have the same effect.