Apparitions

solas

not sure where to start on this one, but I thought I would make for a good discussion.
Apparitions on a mass scale.
any takers?


Mary of Zeitoun.

"Photos of Virgin Mary Coptic Orthodox Church in Zeitoun, Cairo, Egypt.
It is over the domes of this small church that our Lady appeared to millions
for more than a year, starting on the eve of Tuesday, April 2, 1968. The church has
five domes: the central large dome stands up about 12 meters above the ground surface,
surrounded by four smaller domes, each of them is raised 9 meters above the ground."

for images.
http://marybontempo.org/egypt_trip.htm
http://www.zeitun-eg.org/zeitoun1.htm
http://www.delphiassociates.org/photos/bvm/bvm.html
note images are in contrast

Fatima

On October 13, 1917, there were more than 70,000 people gathered in the Cova da Iria in Fatima, Portugal. They had come to observe a miracle which had been foretold by the Blessed Virgin to three young visionaries: Lucia dos Santos, and her two cousins, Jacinta and Francisco Marto. (1) Shortly after noon, Our Lady appeared to the three visionaries:

As the Lady was about to leave, she pointed to the sun. Lucy excitedly repeated the gesture, and the people looked into the sky. The rain had ceased, the clouds parted, and the sun shone forth, but not in its usual brilliance. Instead, it appeared like a silver disc, pale as the moon, at which all could gaze without straining their eyes. Suddenly, impelled by some mysterious force, the disc began to whirl in the sky, casting off great shafts of multicolored light. Red, green, blue, yellow, violet--the enormous rays shot across the sky at all angles, lighting up the entire countryside for many miles around, but particularly the upturned faces of those 70,000 spellbound people.

After a few moments the wonder stopped, but resumed again a second and a third time--three times in all--within about 12 minutes. It seemed that the whole world was on fire, with the sun spinning at a greater speed each time.

Then a gasp of terror rose from the crowd, for the sun seemed to tear itself from the heavens and come crashing down upon the horrified multitude.... Just when it seemed that the ball of fire would fall upon and destroy them, the miracle ceased, and the sun resumed its normal place in the sky, shining forth as peacefully as ever.

When the people arose from the ground, cries of astonishment were heard on all sides. Their clothes, which had been soaking wet and muddy, now were clean and dry. Many of the sick and crippled had been cured of their afflictions. (2)

http://www.sofc.org/FATIMA/spiritf.htm

Oryx

Well this is certainly the right country for this discussion, with our moving statues! I think a certain amount of this must be to do with mass hysteria or something, people being caught in the moment and convinced theyve seen something, but as with everything there must be a few exceptions that cannot be explained. Have no experience of the phenomenon other than reading a little about it.

stevenmu

I'll try to avoid any implications of government/alien mind control devices. Or anything to do with CIA agents, chemicals and water supplies

I think that for the main part, these phenomona seem to happen in very religious areas. When strongly religious people experience something they can't explain stright away they, naturally enough, often attribute it to some religious factor (generally a miracle of some variety). For example if a group of people in a religous are see some strange light effect there's a very strong chance that one of them will see Mary or Jesus in it, and will then shout it out. The others will all want to see the same and therefore will.

It does seem to have happened often enough though, and it hasn't always been placed in a religous context, that at least in some cases it's likely that there is genuinely something (or more likely all kinds of different somethings) unusual happening. Personally I've no idea what those somethings are, altough in the case of the spinning sun/disc thing my first guess would be the relatively mundane ball lightening. I'm open to correction on that though

solas

katiek wrote:

Well this is certainly the right country for this discussion, with our moving statues! I think a certain amount of this must be to do with mass hysteria or something,

I agree, its sort of what prompted the topic, wonder are there any people around boards with any moving statue stories to tell

stevenmu wrote:

]I'll try to avoid any implications of government/alien mind control devices. Or anything to do with CIA agents, chemicals and water supplies

haa..k.
If you take Mary out of the Fatima story it does sound like an alien encounter of the close kind.

stevenmu wrote:

Personally I've no idea what those somethings are, altough in the case of the spinning sun/disc thing my first guess would be the relatively mundane ball lightening. I'm open to correction on that though

The three girls had been having visions for sometime before hand, so if it was ball lightening it was very well timed (as it was prophesised) and also had the knock on effect of "curing" the ill.

stevenmu

solas wrote:

The three girls had been having visions for sometime before hand, so if it was ball lightening it was very well timed (as it was prophesised) and also had the knock on effect of "curing" the ill.

I tend to be very skeptical of claims of "curing" the ill, I always think of the blind guy in the life of brian who claimed he could see again and then walked straight into a hole.

Your point about the 3 girls knowing about the event in advance does kind of rule out ball lightening though. So, as the saying goes "If your so sure what it ain't, how about telling us what it am ?"

Solas wrote:

If you take Mary out of the Fatima story it does sound like an alien encounter of the close kind.

I actually did a quick google and there actually are a few sites claiming the whole thing was interdimensional aliens using mass hallucinations to make us think it was Mary. I had a quick laugh and moved quickly on...

solas

"If your so sure what it ain't, how about telling us what it am ?"

it's why I threw the question out there. I'm a great believer in the untapped potential of human consciousness, in the scale of mass consciousness I can only imagine the possibilities. The querying part of the issue for me is that it was all instigated by three young children, one of whom died as a result of the encounters. (and who was forewarned)

with regard to aliens and what nots, why would they give us hallucinogens..surely they have more advanced technology for brainwashing the masses

solas

just read this..synchronicity?

LISBON, Portugal (Reuters) Sunday, February 13, 2005 Posted: 6:31 PM EST -- Lucia de Jesus dos Santos, the last of three children who claimed to see the Virgin Mary at Fatima and who revealed a vision the Catholic Church said foretold the attempt to kill Pope John Paul II, died on Sunday, the Church said.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/02/13/portugal.fatima.reut/index.html

stevenmu

solas wrote:

just read this..synchronicity?


http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/02/13/portugal.fatima.reut/index.html

If you mean between her and the pope (with regard to his current health issues) I'd guess not considering their respective ages and pre-existing health conditions. I'm not sure if I'd even think of it as a coincidence.

solas wrote:

it's why I threw the question out there. I'm a great believer in the untapped potential of human consciousness, in the scale of mass consciousness I can only imagine the possibilities.

I am too, altough I'd refer to it as the potential of the sub-conscious instead. In general I'd think that a mass collection of consciousnesses would tend to hinder the abilities of the sub-consciouses. I'm at a complete loss though as to how a mass group of people could all experience the same phenomonon like that. I'd prefer not to accept the religious explanation (I'm guessing you do too, having posted here and not on the christianity forum). Given many of the other things that could doesn't interfere in, I can't see him (or her, for those who prefer) interfering in this way. Anything I can think think of though, no matter how off the wall it is, can't explain how people would all experience the exact same thing.

solas

stevenmu wrote:

If you mean between her and the pope

no..I was thinking more along the lines of how coincidental it was that I had brought up the subject of fatima, which is something I've never really touched on before, stated this:

The querying part of the issue for me is that it was all instigated by three young children, one of whom died as a result of the encounters. (and who was forewarned)

and then one of them (didn't know any of them were even alive tbh) goes and dies, two days after raising the subject.

just grabbed my attention, not stating any paranormal convictions, just noting the situation. Probably wouldn't have paid any attention to her passing as I would have been oblivious to the situation until I researched the issue last week.

Anything I can think think of though, no matter how off the wall it is, can't explain how people would all experience the exact same thing.

this is why I thought it would make for good discussion, something to chew on anyway. Still interested in hearing others explanations tho.

Zillah

I agree with almost everything Stevemu said. I took a look at some of the photos and to be honest most of them are small and blurry. The clearer ones look rather faked and to be honest photographic evidence doesn't count for that much anymore. I will not give credence to a photo of Mary unless a photographic expert has said that this photo is indeed unfakable. Religious people don't count as very good witnesses in my book. Someone that has the capacity to believe in something so huge and unprovable as God or so gullible as to believe the bible are not reliable witnesses.

A bird goes by during a pilgrimage.
"Was that...?"
"Oh my God what did you see!?"
"I looked up and.."
"It was flying. An angel? You saw an angel?"
"I could have been..."
"Oh you are blessed. Everyone he saw an angel!"
"Really you saw an angel!?"
"Yes, I saw an angel"
Everyone looks up.
"Oh I see it too!!"
"An angel an angel!!"
"What I don't see anything.."
"Look there you must see it"
"I think that might be..."
"Yes exactly you can see the angel!"


I'm being a little bit glib but the scenario is valid.
Do some research on mass hysteria Solas. It brilliant.


For example, lets say im waiting in the queue at a nightclub. I speak loudly to a friend "Yeah I heard he was gonna bring a gun" and some people overhear. Later inside a door slams loudly and I point at someone and shout "Oh my god he shot him". I guarantee you later on a large group of people will swear they saw a gun. Hysteria is easily explained in terms of evolution. Huge amounts of human behaviour is all about making a cohesive society. Appreciation of art and music, the capacity to believe in "God" or gods, and mutual support of each others opinion regardless of of cicrumstance. Imagine a group of humans in a field. One says "I think i saw a tiger over there". Which is more benficial, "No I don't believe you" or "Lets run away really really fast".?


Edit: BTW I fully believe that the modern UFO stories and biblical sightings are all the same phenomena, just see through a different period determined paradigm. Imagine a classic modern UFO encounter. Now imagine an ancient jewish sheep herder seeing it. Aliens or an angels firey chariot?

solas

I gave two examples, the first being the apparitions in egypt, mostly because of the photographic evidence. Of the three links, most of the images are from the 1968 episodes which is why they're not of good quality, but the third link has an image right at the very bottom that was taken in 2000, when the apparitions started again.
I think that image (which shows in contrast too) really left the impression that it was some sort of hoax, it looked like some sort of light projection, I just wonder why no one has gone up onto the roof and had a good look around.

The fatima story intrigues me, not least because of the history of the situation and is a little more complex.
I have touched on the idea of mass hysteria in the form of the projection of mass human consciousness, ie: everybody wanting to believe and having the experience to go along with conceptual indoctrination. But as steven said, they all saw the same thing. It's not as simple as looking at a statue and it moving and then everybody seeing it move at various times,(what else was it going to do?..) it was 70,000 (50,000) people all witnessing the same scenario at the same time, (which tbh you would need a fecking great imagination for one person alone to conceive) which although the girls had prophesised, no one knew anything about until it occured.
Maybe these children were masters of mind manipulation, who knows, maybe they were powerful enough to project their beliefs onto the minds of 50,000 people, who consequently ceased being ill as a result of what they saw. Mind over matter.

The story itself of the three children is intriguing too. If it was someone like derren browne, who is an extremely talented man and well adept at working peoples imaginations, it would make sense. The children were incarcerated at the time, they got into a lot of trouble for saying what they saw, they were not believed.

solas

I just found a good reason why 50-70,000 people all saw the same thing.
the masonic revolution
the seers kidnapped
its almost like a conspiracy theory...;)


thought I should add...
I'm not parading the prophecies, as far as prophecies go they are along the same lines as those given by every other christian mystic in the past, similar to biblical tales, and as these are ideas conceived prior to visions (via the bible) it really seems to be a subconscious projection.
I would read or interpret any prophecies, biblical or no (or for others out there who are interested) in the same way one would interpret a dream, they tend to make more sense that way.

http://www.dreammoods.com/
is a good site for gaining understanding into the subconscious mind and the symbols inherent in sleep.

stevenmu

Ok, so I've been thinking about this for a while and haven't come up with much of use, so it's crackpot pseudo-scientific theory time.

I think I've posted here before that I believe that people can be affected by changes in the earths magnetic field. I don't really have any proof of this but it is commonly believed that some migratory animals can navigate based on fluctuations in the field, so it seems reasonable to me that it can have some affect on us at a subconcious level.

In thinking about mass apparitions in general I realised that there's been many cases of them reported in South America. I also remembered recently seeing a documentery about how the Earths magnetic field could be reversing which described the South Atlantic Anomoly (SAA) which is basically an area over the southern atlantic where the direction of the Earths magnetic field has already reversed direction (can anybody not see where this is going ?). It's important to note at this stage that the SAA is only unique in terms of size and stability (it moves around some but it continues to exist). The magnetic field anywhere at a local scale is constantly changing, it increases and decreases in strength and even undergoes temporary local reversals.

So what affect can this have on people ? First of all it could potentially create lighting effects in the sky, similar to Aurora Borealis etc but perhaps even more intense (brighter, more varied, faster changing colours and patterns). Second it could also leave people more exposed and suceptible to astronomical (or astrological if you prefer) agents.

Also, as I already mentioned I believe that a change in the field could have a direct influence on people, the more dramatic the change, the more dramatic the affect on the people nearby, naturally enough. If you combine the ideas of mass hysteria with a whole bunch of people already experiencing they don't understand, and probably have little or no experience of, it could quite easily lead to the apparition phenomona.

Finally, to take care of the Fatima cousins seeming to have foreknowledge of the event. One possibility is that they had some precognitive 'vision' of the events unfolding. I think it's more likely that these visions would have been of the reactions by the people as opposed to a prediction of the actual phenomonon itself. Another is that they were more suceptible to changes in the field and that the 'main event' was preceded by a series of smaller ones (which is quite likely) which noone else noticed very much. It's been shown that there is an area of the brain which is larger in people who are more likly to experience religious/other visions such as this. While it's not known if it's the part of the brain making them more susceptible or if it's the fact that they are more suceptible makes that part of the brain grow more, it's certainly possible that it is genetic. All meaning that the fatima cousins could have been naturally more suceptible to minor changes in the magnetic field which preceded the mass apparition, allowing them to 'predict' it.

solas

well stranger.

tbh.. after reading the political background and history of faitma at the time, I genuinely believe it was nothing more than a plot by the church to save itself.
I know that sounds like the whole tin foil hat conspiracy bluff but its only as crazy as the idea of the apparition itself.
which is more likely? the catholic church were being overthrown in said country so devised a way of keeping the faith, or 50,000 people witnesed a miraculous vision.
Sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction.

Oryx

Interesting guys! Keep it coming. Can hear my brain cells creaking trying to keep up with discussion, which I know nothing about. I really need to read more! Last time I read about this kind of thing was a book on Garabandal in the eighties, in that the girls involved did mad things like walking all the way to the site backwards in some kind of trance.

stevenmu

solas wrote:

well stranger.

tbh.. after reading the political background and history of faitma at the time, I genuinely believe it was nothing more than a plot by the church to save itself.
I know that sounds like the whole tin foil hat conspiracy bluff but its only as crazy as the idea of the apparition itself.
which is more likely? the catholic church were being overthrown in said country so devised a way of keeping the faith, or 50,000 people witnesed a miraculous vision.
Sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction.

Ah, now I see what your previous links meant. It's certainly possible I suppose, I certainly wouldn't put it past the church, or at least some factions within it. I've had similar thoughts in the past but there has been so many examples of apparitions, both religious and otherwise, that I'm inclined to think that there's something behind some of them at least. I suppose the problem is though that they can't all be lumped together and it can't be said that something definitly is or isn't behind them all. I'm curious to know though, do you think that 50,000 people lied or that the reports of 50,000 people witnessing something were fake or that the church managed to actually convince them they saw something ?

Oryx

With regard to the 50,000, how can you quantify it? Did they take names and addresses? :rolleyes: Ive heard it said that the number of people who say they were in woodstock or saw the beatles play at the cavern were actually there, both venues would have had to be about a hundred times bigger

solas

Last time I read about this kind of thing was a book on Garabandal in the eighties, in that the girls involved did mad things like walking all the way to the site backwards in some kind of trance.

fact or fiction?
Never heard of Garabandal before, more info?

I'm curious to know though, do you think that 50,000 people lied or that the reports of 50,000 people witnessing something were fake or that the church managed to actually convince them they saw something ?

The site that is linked has some eye witness accounts, one by a doctor who's testimony was obviously very welcomed.
I was fascinated reading the account as it really seemed like nothing more than eveybody staring at the sun for too long resulting in retinal burn.
If that was the case, it's not so much that they were lying, they were telling the truth and clearly believed what they saw, albeit with the addition of some sort of suggestion that it was miraculous.
couldn't find a direct link but this one will do, same account by same witness Dr. José Maria de Almeida Garrett,
professor atthe Faculty of Sciences of Coimbra, Portugal

http://www.viarosa.com/VR/Fatima/MiracleOfSun.html

bonbon

Is it probable that all the people mass hallucinated at fatima? every last one? not all were religious. skeptics from O'Secula newspaper showed up not expecting to see anything. they saw the miracle too and reported it in the newspaper. there is nothing more intellectual about assuming a mass hallucination explanation than the simple, obvious one: Many people are falling into hell and Mary, our mother, has come to warn us and show us how to avoid hell. just like at the Cana wedding Mary interceded when the wine ran out, so too throughout history Mary intercedes when the wine runs out (when things are bad or at their worst). it seems many are quick to discount any religious explanation simply because it's relgious.

a mass hallucination theory fails to explain how people were instanteously cured of ilnesses. it fails to explain how people went from being completely soaked from the rain to totally dry in a few minutes. also it doesnt explain how people a few miles away saw it.

if the people had heeded Mary's requests WW2 would have been avoided.

Zillah

bonbon wrote:

if the people had heeded Mary's requests WW2 would have been avoided.

Mary what now...?

Oryx

Jeez, solas only saw your post now, the book on Garabandal was out in the early eighties (read it as a kid, not that old ) and it had photos of these girls in an apparent trance seemingly walking backwards along a real rough path, it said they were sure footed as if they could see, but it was only a book and I cant say how biased it might have been. Struck a chord with me cos I was a similar age. Cant remember much about it now, but google pulls quite a few entries on Garabandal.

bonbon

The First Prophecy


In the first prophecy, the children were shown a terrifying vision of Hell and were told that's "where the souls of poor sinners go." Then they were told that the world war then taking place - what we now call World War I - would soon end.* "The war is going to end," Lucia quoted the Blessed Mother as saying, "but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the reign of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given to you by God that He is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father."

bonbon

i have read extensively about Garabandal. there are many things about the story that makes be believe it may be true. the best two sites i've found are www.garabandalny.com and www.ourlady.ca. for a few real audio documentaries go to www.garabandal.tv

i havent yet read any good arguments against Garabandal. i have searched for good arguments against it but most of the arguments ive found had their facts wrong. i knew right away because i knew the facts very well. i am open to hearing some arguments against it if anyone has any good ones.

i would suggest people read about it for information purposes. if it turns out true you'll understand what happened when it happens. if it's false you just knew the information. you dont have to believe it unless the specific foretold things happen. if its true it is a major thing. that is why its good to know the info.

bonbon

heres a link that is about Mother Teresa's belief in Garabandal (with pictures of her with the visionaries)

http://www.ourlady.ca/info/MotherTeresa.htm

RangeR

I know that this is a VERY old thread but I'll add something I was told about. I was talking to my uncle last night. He does a lot of research into these things. Anywho, he mentioned something that was going to happen next month, related to Garabandal. I though I'd share.

By the by, I'm not a bible thumper, never go to mass, etc.... Fact or Fiction, it's an interesting read.

The Warning of Garabandal Explained

Stoner

solas wrote: »

I agree, its sort of what prompted the topic, wonder are there any people around boards with any moving statue stories to tell

I remember being about 7 in primary school watching a bunch of girls flipping out and blowing snot bubbles as they claimed that the statue of Mary in the convent waved at them and continued to do so every now and then.

At the time I wondered what all the fuss was about because I stood there (complete with my extra small gold glasses) watching the statue being statuesque and no more.

I'm now beginning to wonder if this was essentially my first paranormal investigation? it had all the ingredients, plus I'd get to tell people I was investigating when I was 7, the younger you start the more you can big yourself up apparently, it's like reverse leveling.