EU set to lift China arms embargo

arcadegame2004

This is an utter disgrace as far as I am concerned. It threatens democratic Taiwan's ability to defend itself (which should concern all supporters of democracy) and rewards Beijing for its ruthless torture, execution and imprisonment of dissidents, and its occupation and slaughter of 2 million Tibetans, and plantation with Chinese settlers.

EU set to lift China arms embargo despite US concerns
10.02.2005 - 09:49 CET | By Honor Mahony

EUOBSERVER / BRUSSELS - The European Union on Wednesday (9 February) indicated that it would go ahead and lift its arms embargo on China despite repeatedly expressed concerns by the US.

"The European Union is moving to lift the arms embargo. The European Union cannot be accused of rushing into this", said European Commission President José Manuel Barroso.

Standing beside him during a brief stop on her whirlwind tour of Europe, US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice reiterated the concerns the US has about the EU's intention to lift the embargo - imposed after the massacre of protestors in Tiananmen Square in 1989.

"We have made clear our concerns about the military balance, the fact that there are still American forces in that region", said Ms Rice.

"All we can ask is that the European Union is aware of our concerns, understands them fully and takes them fully into consideration", she added.

The EU is set to lift its embargo within the first half of this year but is in the process of making a general code of conduct on arms sales stricter.

Victor

arcadegame2004 wrote:

and its occupation and slaughter of 2 million Tibetans

Just what is the fascination with the Tibetans? How long was Tibet an independent country? How long was Tibet a democratic country?

How long is Taiwan an independent country? How long is Taiwan a democratic country?

The answer to the above, I understand, is "not very long".

Separately, I don't think the arms embargo necessarily stops the oppression of Tibetans or threatens the security of Taiwan. China is well capable of buying all it wants from Russia, Israel, the black market and the component factories within China itself.

billy the squid

and plantation with Chinese settlers.

don't you mean immigration of chinese into tibet?

arcadegame2004

don't you mean immigration of chinese into tibet?

How do you explain that during the previous centuries of Chinese rule in Tibet that the Tibetans have only now become a minority there? It is state-sponsored colonisation along the exact same lines as the Ulster Plantation.

Just what is the fascination with the Tibetans? How long was Tibet an independent country? How long was Tibet a democratic country?

You could make the same argument about Ireland. It had de facto independence under the Chinese emperors, which recognised Tibet as "differerent" and allowed the Llama's substantial autonomy. Yes it was not democratic, but being independent is probably more important than what kind of government you have. As Gandhi said (roughly) "better for us to be ruled by a bad Indian government, than a good British government". They are a separate ethnic group to the Chinese and consider themselves a separate people. Tibet was independent from 1912-1949. The Baltic states were independent for a similar length of time between the wars but I don't think anyone is denying they are countries.

How long is Taiwan an independent country? How long is Taiwan a democratic country?

The answer to the above, I understand, is "not very long".

I am fairly sure Taiwan would reunite with mainland China if and when the mainland ends its penchant for re-education camps, torture, mass-executions, and the barbaric practice of forcing the families of executed dissidents to pay both for the return of the bodies AND to buy the bullet used. This is a seriously sick regime comparable to Nazism. Mao Zedong killed 100 million people, making Hitler look like a saint. The would-be "socialist" ideology of the Chinese regime does not absolve it from its crimes. This is the regime which killed thousands in Tianeman Square for having the temerity to demand the rights we have here in the West to choose who governs us.

Separately, I don't think the arms embargo necessarily stops the oppression of Tibetans or threatens the security of Taiwan. China is well capable of buying all it wants from Russia, Israel, the black market and the component factories within China itself.

It probably won't stop the oppression of Tibetans but if China was really capable if buying all it wants (armswise) then why is it pressing so hard for the arms embargo to be lifted? I don't think it's just for "improved relations" somehow. The ultimate joke is the claim by the butchers of Beijing that the lifting of the ban won't lead to them buying more weapons from the EU. Yeah right! Beijing just wants to gain the military edge over Taiwan and destroy the sole outpost of democracy in the Chinese-speaking world.

There is no consistency in the EU tightening economic and diplomatic sanctions on Burma, while loosening them with regard to China. Before some lefty or greedy businessman says that "increased trade with China will improve the situation there", let me ask do you think Adolf Hitler would have been tamed in that way? Seriously? :rolleyes:

billy the squid

How do you explain that during the previous centuries of Chinese rule in Tibet that the Tibetans have only now become a minority there? It is state-sponsored colonisation along the exact same lines as the Ulster Plantation.

I was just curious as to how the chinese planted in tibet yet the english immigrated to ireland.

might be worth mentioning that Ireland was bart of the brittish empire before plantation in the same way tibet was part of china before plantation.

billy the squid

must clarify

read the last line of the post linked below

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2366258&postcount=205

maybe you should figure out the difference between immigration and plantation before you go hurling accusations at the chinese.

and there is nothing stopping the chinese building their own weapons.

arcadegame2004

billy the squid wrote:

must clarify

read the last line of the post linked below

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2366258&postcount=205

maybe you should figure out the difference between immigration and plantation before you go hurling accusations at the chinese.

and there is nothing stopping the chinese building their own weapons.

I wonder were you equally fond of defending the former dictatorships in Eastern Europe before 1989, as you seem to be of the Chinese one?

Why is China so insistent on ending the arms embargo if they can provide themselves now with advanced weapons systems? Do you not believe that we have an obligation in the West to avoid helping dictatorships oppress their people? If Hitler were around today would you be saying "let's sell him weapons. after all he'll get them anyway"?

I was just curious as to how the chinese planted in tibet yet the english immigrated to ireland.

might be worth mentioning that Ireland was bart of the brittish empire before plantation in the same way tibet was part of china before plantation.

Tibet actually had independence from 1912-49 (they drove out the Chinese in 1912) so the Chinese invasion is more like the Nazi invasion of Poland.

Anyway, the fact that Britain had invaded us already in no way mitigates what they did!

This is not supposed to be a debate about immigration. Trying to deflect criticism of your leftwing friends in Beijing are you?

billy the squid

Why is China so insistent on ending the arms embargo if they can provide themselves now with advanced weapons systems? Do you not believe that we have an obligation in the West to avoid helping dictatorships oppress their people? If Hitler were around today would you be saying "let's sell him weapons. after all he'll get them anyway"?

The americans are able to develop their own military hardware yet most of the components for marine 1 came from europe.

http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7B0CEDC803-14E8-4753-B4E2-8AB9706AD4CD%7D&siteid=google&dist=google

I wonder were you equally fond of defending the former dictatorships in Eastern Europe before 1989, as you seem to be of the Chinese one?

i was a teenager in 1989. i was more interested in Kylie Minogues butt to be honest. It might not be a nice answer but at least its an honest one.

In retrospect Isolating a country because of its political structure by way of sanctions etc serves only to starve the ordinary individuals living there and usually never work.

China has sent rockets into space so whats to stop them making ICBMs with or without trading with europe.

http://www.fas.org/spp/guide/china/

This is not supposed to be a debate about immigration. Trying to deflect criticism of your leftwing friends in Beijing are you?

their less of a threat to me than your right wing friends in Washington D C

arcadegame2004

In retrospect Isolating a country because of its political structure by way of sanctions etc serves only to starve the ordinary individuals living there and usually never work.

It certainly worked in Serbia regarding Milosevic getting removed. It also worked in South Africa ending the Aparteid regime there.

We shouldn't reward human-rights abuses, and we should not go along with the attitude that the human rights record of the country with the worst or second worst human-rights record in the world (China) is (as they might put it) "a solely internal affair".

One of the most stupid arguments used by the apologists of the Chinese regime, is that "China has 1 billion people - therefore democracy cannot work there". If that is true, how do people explain how it works in India, which also has over a billion people, and is forecast to have more people than China in the coming decades?

I strongly believe that human-rights and trade should be linked. Unfortunately, it seems that our politicians are prostituting themselves to Chinese money and that of Irish companies that bankroll the corrupt Western politicians. Shame! :mad:

their less of a threat to me than your right wing friends in Washington D C

Who are these "right wing friends" of mine? I dislike Bush's obsession with religion and I despise the way we were misled about WMD when the real agenda was oil (though the elections can be seen as a silver lining in the cloud).

But at least the US Government and parliament(s) are elected by the people (at least this year), and you can't seriously believe that the US can be compared to China in human-rights terms?

billy the squid

t certainly worked in Serbia regarding Milosevic getting removed. It also worked in South Africa ending the Aparteid regime there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia#The_Break-Up_of_Yugoslavia

Point of fact number 1.

Slobodon Melosovic (sp) was removed from power after he tried to tinker with an election result. half a million protesters demanded his resignation.

point of fact number 2

Sanctions did not stop south africa from developing a nuclear weapons program

http://cns.miis.edu/research/safrica/chron.htm

We shouldn't reward human-rights abuses, and we should not go along with the attitude that the human rights record of the country with the worst or second worst human-rights record in the world (China) is (as they might put it) "a solely internal affair".

The chinese are going to develop these weapons anyway. If europe sells them these weapons then the europeans will have valuable intelligence about these weapons before china even buys them.

One of the most stupid arguments used by the apologists of the Chinese regime, is that "China has 1 billion people - therefore democracy cannot work there". If that is true, how do people explain how it works in India, which also has over a billion people, and is forecast to have more people than China in the coming decades?

where did i say that?

But at least the US Government and parliament(s) are elected by the people (at least this year), and you can't seriously believe that the US can be compared to China in human-rights terms?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/WarOnTerrorism/2005/02/10/927407-ap.html

what was that about the US and human rights?

arcadegame2004

what was that about the US and human rights?

But in scale there is no comparison ie the number of people being persecuted. In China, there is a totalitarian regime and nothing happens without its say so. Even so, it should be condemned. I never disputed that.

Did you know that after an uprising in 1959 in Tibet, the Chinese rounded up 80,000 men, women and children, and executed them and burried them in a mass grave? Screbrenica X 10. Does it matter to you? No! It wasn't the US that did it! And it was done by a leftwing government. That makes it okay I suppose!

You are just showing how anti-American you are. I don't dispute your criticisms of the US because the US should be criticised for them. But it is really strange that you reserve 100% of your criticism for them, and 0% for the dictatorships of the world, the most oppressive of which is China.

Why is this? My criticism is also directed at the rest of the Left wing on this forum.

TomF

I think it is helpful to keep in mind that for many who post on this website, "There are no enemies to the left." It explains so much.

While I was surfing the Net to check that I had the translated French quotation right, I found a reference to a book (also in translation from French) that might be instructive reading.

"The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression"
by Stephane Courtois, Mark Kramer, Jonathan Murphy, Nicolas Werth, Jean-Louis Panne, Andrzej Paczkowski, Karel Bartosek, Jean-Louis Margolin

- Hardcover: 858 pages
- Publisher: Harvard University Press (October 1, 1999)
- ISBN: 0674076087

Reviewed on http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~hpcws/booklistreview.htm

arcadegame2004

TomF wrote:

I think it is helpful to keep in mind that for many who post on this website, "There are no enemies to the left." It explains so much.

Correct.

Cousin it

U.S: Vietnam war (agent orange, and napalm on civilians and My Lai massacre) 1.5 million Vietnamese killed.

Hiroshima = 200,000 killed

Nagasaki = 100,000 killed

The slave trade that existed there for centuries and the persecution of countless african americans.

Appointing Pinochet as leader of chile.

The iraq war.

The blatant abuse of and disregard for civil liberties of its own citizens.

The constant state of fear spread through not only its own population but the entire world.

Its development of chemical and biological weapons for use in combat.

Guantanamo bay.

The cold war and its ignorance towards different belief systems which has led to the suffering of countless millions.

Cuba is still suffering under the embargo imposed during the cuban missile crisis.

China: The way they enforce the one child policy disgusts me and i in no way condone it. However, they have made this law for a reason. the public are well aware of it but would rather risk it and suffer than abide by it. It is only enforced in the cities to maintain sanitation law and order. most people ( but definately not all) who live in the cities are the well to do in Chinese society and so do not need to have more children.
In the countryside the law is not enforced as the peasant farmers need to have more children to work the land so they can survive.

true

Cousin it,

The American helped save Europe twice in the 20th century from German agression.
It defended itself from Japan and went to war against it. I do not condone the bombing of two civilian cities in Japan, but the war in the pacific up until then cost a lot of American lives and the Japanese did not like to surrender. That said, I think one target in Japan would have been enough. A full conventional assault on Japan would have cost more lives.
America defended the free world during the cold war. America has the grace to help defeated countries rebuild eg the Marshall plan, and by subsequent economic co-operation. After Iraq invaded little Kuwait, who went to the rescue ? Yet again it was the Americans ( with a bit of help from the old reliables like the UK ). Most Iraquis now are glad that America ridded Iraq of Saddam - witness the recent elections.
At least the government in Iraq now does not go about torturing and murdering its opponents. Its a start.
America is not perfect, but without it ( and its other democratic allies like the UK ) the world would be a much worse place.

Poker_Peter

China: The way they enforce the one child policy disgusts me and i in no way condone it. However, they have made this law for a reason. the public are well aware of it but would rather risk it and suffer than abide by it. It is only enforced in the cities to maintain sanitation law and order. most people ( but definately not all) who live in the cities are the well to do in Chinese society and so do not need to have more children.

I think if you research your facts you will find that the numbers killed by the Communist regime in China is higher than the numbers fo victims of Hitler and Stalin combined.

ionapaul

Agree with Arcade here. The Chinese are not going to 'develop the weapons themselves anyway' without major difficulties and delays in terms of R&D. The reason the Chinese defence budget expanded greatly following the NATO action in Kosovo / Serbia was because (reputedly) the Chinese shat themselves when they realised how far ahead of them militarily NATO (and primarily those damn right-wing Americans) was and still is. They don't have the technology, can't develop it overnight, and so want to buy it from our European partners, as the Americans are not so stupid to sell it to a long-term rival! (I know I'm running the risk of this turning into another US vs. China in technology / war argument that we see every couple of months!)

Comparing the Chinese regime to the American system is laughable but predictable, given the tone of the forum. Think about a world dominated by the Chinese government - compare to the world we currently live in, warts and all - can anyone really claim the Chinese hegemony would be better? There is no comparison.

I am trying to avoid going through Cousin it's points one by one to comment, but regarding the cold war and America's 'ignorance towards different belief systems' - are you serious? I know many here see themselves as 'left-wing' but the fact that the Soviet Union and Stalin's 'belief system' was challenged and successfully contained, then defeated from within by their own people, is something to celebrate. BTW the Americans also had a problem with the Nazi belief system, those intolerant yankee BASTARDS!

ionapaul

Just to add I know the US is nowhere near perfect and rightfully should be challenged on its own problems and mistakes - which are growing at the moment under Bush - but I for one would rather live in a world under American influence, rather than Soviet or Chinese.

elvis2002

Everybody in this post seems to have a programmed western, american view on china. Wake up and smell the roses. Im sick of reading about all the bad things china has done, lets not forget people that most big countries have had their share of war. America fears China so i suppose they wouldnt be happy with this ruling by the EU.

ionapaul

I suppose we're just intolerant of different belief systems...:)

sceptre

elvis2002 wrote:

Wake up and smell the roses. Im sick of reading about all the bad things china has done, lets not forget people that most big countries have had their share of war.

Let's not forget that there's an entire forum there for you to talk about bad things done by any countries. The "you can't (or shouldn't) criticise X because this other guy has done Y and that's like so much worse, man" argument doesn't cut much mustard with me to be honest as it's attempted far too often. Whole forum available for your own supported views.

Poker_Peter

elvis2002 wrote:

Everybody in this post seems to have a programmed western, american view on china. Wake up and smell the roses. Im sick of reading about all the bad things china has done, lets not forget people that most big countries have had their share of war. America fears China so i suppose they wouldnt be happy with this ruling by the EU.

If a programmed western american view on china means despising their dictatorship, which executes people for such horrendous crimes as verbally supporting Tibetan independence, and for such outrageous acts such as discussing democracy on the Internet, then I think that view of China is one I'd rather continue to espouse and hold, thank you very much.

You remind me of Neville Chamberlain and Daladier in the 1930's with respect to Hitler. China is definitely a potential threat and has certainly NOT been a force for human rights, democracy or good generally in the world since the Communists came to power in 1949. Since then, they have concentrated on torturing and massacring their people, and proping up equally or even more evil regimes in countries like North Korea and Burma - a regime which massacred thousands of students protesting in favour of their 80% vote for Aung San Syu Syi in 1988. Oh and something about the massacre of 3,600 pro-democracy student demonstrators in Tiananamen aswell. But hey, who cares when there's so much money to be made selling them military technology so they kill even more helpless civilians hey?

These might be policies that you admire, in which case I am glad you are not in charge of this country!

I am certainly not absolving the US from responsibility for all the terrible mistakes they have made but compared to China they are saints. Like Ionapaul, I believe that it is imperative for the security of Western democratic societies and the advancement of human rights and democracy generally that global military dominance rest with the Western hemisphere of countries. History has taught us that we pay dear if we delude ourselves with the thought that we can tame brutal regimes with closer ties and soft words.

Hobbes

So you don't buy anything made in China in protest? That would account to almost everything. Why not boycott the Olympics while your at it?

China has its bad points in history, and some in current day but comparing China to 10-20 years ago is like comparing northern Ireland to the 70's.

I've been to China, while some of it is quite clearly a communist state, it is also quite clearly capitalistic. They seemed to have merged the two quite well and it is possible for someone to get rich in the American sense of the word.

Chinese that I met there were the most friendly people I have ever met (locals). Didn't come across any screaming "Death to the West!".

So I am not entirely sure how it is a "potencial threat". Are they attacking other countries recently?

bonkey

Poker_Peter wrote:

China is definitely a potential threat

To what? To whom? Why?

There's a difference between a country not espousing the ideals we would liek them to and that country being a threat - potential or otherwise - to us in any way, but you seem to be freely intermixing the two.

Mentioning Hitler is just disingenuous, unless you're asserting that China currently has expanionist and/or genocidal tendencies - in which case I'd ask why you only class it as a potential threat.

As for your condemnation of China...thats your perogative. Personally, I'd rather live in a world where we encourage others (and ourselves) to better themselves, rather than making outcasts and pariahs of everyone we disagree with to "force" them to change....but I guess we'll just have to differ on that one.

jc

Poker_Peter

Hobbes wrote:

So you don't buy anything made in China in protest? That would account to almost everything. Why not boycott the Olympics while your at it?

China has its bad points in history, and some in current day but comparing China to 10-20 years ago is like comparing northern Ireland to the 70's.

I've been to China, while some of it is quite clearly a communist state, it is also quite clearly capitalistic. They seemed to have merged the two quite well and it is possible for someone to get rich in the American sense of the word.

Chinese that I met there were the most friendly people I have ever met (locals). Didn't come across any screaming "Death to the West!".

So I am not entirely sure how it is a "potencial threat". Are they attacking other countries recently?

Well I definitely wouldn't sell them weapons. I cannot for the life of me see how it benefits us or them to sell them Western weapons. It will help them massacre thousands more would-be Tianamen pro-democracy activists though and to destroy Taiwan's right to democracy and a society in which criticising the government doesn't mean an express ticket to a torture chamber or a firing squad.

They are continuing to occupy Tibet and to massacre its people. They refuse to let the media in and you and I know perfectly well what we would suspect if the British were refusing to allow outside and Southern Irish media into NI for decades like China has done with Tibet. It is like Russia with Chechnya. What are they hiding? As a former colony ourselves we should be unsparing and unrelenting in condemning colonial oppression.

They are constantly threatening to invade Taiwan. I am sure Taiwanese people would support reunification with China but only in the context of democracy. It is crazy to expect them to hand over their right to elect their government in favour of a dictatorship in which they have no say who governs them, and in which criticism of the government means torture, rape, or death.

The changes in China you are referring to are economic. They are not matched in the political field. How can the EU justify imposing sanctions on some dictatorships but not others?

These references to "how far China has come" are very similar to the references to "how far SF/IRA has come...etc. not killing people now just kneecapping them...well done lads". The leaders of the Beijing regime are like Adams and McGuinness, promising improvements at some unspecified date, then we find out their still up to their old tricks. I say call a spade a spade, instead of congratulating someone for being a little less criminal.

ionapaul

I've also been to China, and while I love the Chinese people and are happy to see more Chinese immigration to Ireland, I certainly have no love for the communist regime that oppresses its people. At some point it will be overthrown, peacefully or otherwise, by the Chinese people, as the Russian, Polish and others have done.

Not sure about how well the Chinese have mixed capitalism and communism...the Chinese people would be well served to get rid of the communism side of things, and embrace democracy, in my opinion! Maybe I'm being intolerent of different belief systems again...

That said, I don't see them attacking Taiwan and risking open conflict with the US / Japan / NATO, that would be idiotic on their part. And they have been a good / settling influence on North Korea. Hopefully they are on the right direction.

Sand

To what? To whom? Why?

China has an exspansionist agenda regarding Taiwan at the very least, nationalistic tendencies (which as demonstrated in Eastern Europe and the Former USSR tend to explode onto the political scene with the fall of Communism), and internal dissent between democrats and communists in Hong Kong. All this whilst the Communist Party attempts to weld a prosperous capitalist economy onto an oppressive communist police state, which cannot succeed in the long run. There are already the stirrings of discontent between the rural poor and the urban "middle class" arising.

One way or the other China is a concern on everyones agenda. And it is hard to see how equipping them with cutting edge weaponry that could be used against Taiwan, the US, the EU, Russia, or indeed Chinas own population helps the situation - they're certainly not required for political or economic development. Youd have thought we'd have learned from the days when Europe and the US armed and financed Saddam Hussein.

Cousin it

ionapaul wrote:

I suppose we're just intolerant of different belief systems...:)

Who says Stalin's belief system (Communism) was wrong. It was just his way of putting it into practice that was evil.

No America did not save Europe twice in the 20th century. History is written by the winners and because of this we think that the U.S was our saviour. The United States provided token support at the end of WW1 so let's not go overboard on that one.

In WW2, it was a unified effort that won the war not the almighty U.S. Who was the first to reach Berlin and to conquer it? Who eliminated an entire army of Nazis???? Oh no, it wasn't those damn commies was it? Them and their belief system!

Oh and the U.K in WW2, can you say Dresden? Where was the war crimes tribunal for that one?

China and Russia were America's allies when it suited them and then when they needed their peoples support they just made a boogey man for everyone to hate together and help fight which led to the cold war.

George Orwell was a freakin genius! America are just plagiarizers.

China shouldn't get these weapons, but what makes them safe in the hands of America and the U.k. the only reason they're not bashing North Korea (not a bad thing if done properly and not like Iraq) and Iran is cos they ran out of cruise missiles. Triggerhappy idiots.

As we can clearly see the vast majority in Iraq are still not free, The Insurgents hold all the power. There was a pathetic voter turnout in Baghdad and other major cities. If they can't find an enemy they just make one. America just shoot anything that moves. Who cares how many of their own soldiers die in the process?

Marshall plan = forward thinking on their (U.S) part so they can use it as an economic bargaining tool they can hang over the heads of countries who accepted it. Thus they dominated the global markets and gained huge wealth while dragging themselves out of recession. America benefited greatly from WW2. America will benefit greatly from the Iraq war. Pattern emerging here? America likes war

Poker_Peter

There was a pathetic voter turnout in Baghdad and other major cities.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40828000/gif/_40828309_iraq_vote_map416.gif

Who says Stalin's belief system (Communism) was wrong. It was just his way of putting it into practice that was evil.

And Lenin's. And Khruschev's. And Brezhnev's. And Mao Zedong's. And Deng Ziaoping. And Castro's. And Ceaucescu's....

The problem is not only those putting Communism into practice (though they are certainly the embodiment of the problem to a large degree). The problem with Communism is that it claims to represent "the people", while denying them the right to elect those who rule them. It also tortures, executes, and detains those who disagree with them.

There is nothing good about such a system.

Hobbes

Poker_Peter wrote:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40828000/gif/_40828309_iraq_vote_map416.gif

Thats based off those who are registered to vote. Matter of interest do you have those figures as well? After all 80% means nothing if you have totals to go behind it.

sovtek

Poker_Peter wrote:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40828000/gif/_40828309_iraq_vote_map416.gif



The problem with Communism is that it claims to represent "the people", while denying them the right to elect those who rule them. It also tortures, executes, and detains those who disagree with them.

There is nothing good about such a system.

...and what about all those other systems that do the same thing...South Africa was a "capitalist" country under Apartheid and they also "tortured, executed and detained those who disagree with them" does that make it a central tenet of capitalism?

Victor

true wrote:

Most Iraquis now are glad that America ridded Iraq of Saddam - witness the recent elections. At least the government in Iraq now does not go about torturing and murdering its opponents. Its a start.

Nope, they leave that to the Americans and the contractors.

sovtek

Victor wrote:

Nope, they leave that to the Americans and the contractors.

Actually I think Alawi did a few summary executions himself just after being handed the remote a few months back.

Err0r

Poker_Peter wrote:

If a programmed western american view on china means despising their dictatorship, which executes people for such horrendous crimes as verbally supporting Tibetan independence, and for such outrageous acts such as discussing democracy on the Internet, then I think that view of China is one I'd rather continue to espouse and hold, thank you very much.

You remind me of Neville Chamberlain and Daladier in the 1930's with respect to Hitler. China is definitely a potential threat and has certainly NOT been a force for human rights, democracy or good generally in the world since the Communists came to power in 1949. Since then, they have concentrated on torturing and massacring their people, and proping up equally or even more evil regimes in countries like North Korea and Burma - a regime which massacred thousands of students protesting in favour of their 80% vote for Aung San Syu Syi in 1988. Oh and something about the massacre of 3,600 pro-democracy student demonstrators in Tiananamen aswell. But hey, who cares when there's so much money to be made selling them military technology so they kill even more helpless civilians hey?

These might be policies that you admire, in which case I am glad you are not in charge of this country!

I am certainly not absolving the US from responsibility for all the terrible mistakes they have made but compared to China they are saints. Like Ionapaul, I believe that it is imperative for the security of Western democratic societies and the advancement of human rights and democracy generally that global military dominance rest with the Western hemisphere of countries. History has taught us that we pay dear if we delude ourselves with the thought that we can tame brutal regimes with closer ties and soft words.

1. Since then, they have concentrated on torturing and massacring their people. I thought they were concentrating on a stable economic development?

2. "which executes people for such horrendous crimes as verbally supporting Tibetan independence" woo-wee. You say Tibetans would live better seperated from China? Then why does Dalai Lama say something else?

3. "or even more evil regimes in countries like North Korea and Burma", hilarious, i bet satan is sitting with their leaders patting them on the backs
what makes a regime "evil"?

4. Like to look back into the past?
a) When USA wanted freedom UK attacked. Taiwan wants freedom, has China attacked?
b) What about the retired USA war veterans demanding the money the US gov. promised them, what happened? The tanks came out!
c) All countries have skeletons in their closets, I can just name a few: Sweden said to be neutral during WII but actually supporting the Nazi's, Germany "electing" a bad chairman, UK colonizing the whole world *cough* (go democracy!), The Nanking Massacre

As said, no country is perfect and China are definately no saints! But bear in mind that China is undergoing huge development and thats what the state focuses on, not some personal intrest.

Agreeing with Hobbes, if you do not like a regime, boycott their goods! If you are using stuff made in China, I suggest that you really STFU in the future. You can not "gain" from both sides.

BTW, visit China. I suppose that the information you have read are not from a Chinese source. Go to China and ask them what they think of the "terrible" regime. I'm sure you will learn something. If not, then you must be :eek:

Also, enough with the conspiracy theories! I've lived in China for 3 months and did not get shot by some rooftop sniper, or taken by the police, or anything stupid u might think of.

Err0r

Poker_Peter wrote:

Well I definitely wouldn't sell them weapons. I cannot for the life of me see how it benefits us or them to sell them Western weapons. It will help them massacre thousands more would-be Tianamen pro-democracy activists though and to destroy Taiwan's right to democracy and a society in which criticising the government doesn't mean an express ticket to a torture chamber or a firing squad.

They are continuing to occupy Tibet and to massacre its people. They refuse to let the media in and you and I know perfectly well what we would suspect if the British were refusing to allow outside and Southern Irish media into NI for decades like China has done with Tibet. It is like Russia with Chechnya. What are they hiding? As a former colony ourselves we should be unsparing and unrelenting in condemning colonial oppression.

They are constantly threatening to invade Taiwan. I am sure Taiwanese people would support reunification with China but only in the context of democracy. It is crazy to expect them to hand over their right to elect their government in favour of a dictatorship in which they have no say who governs them, and in which criticism of the government means torture, rape, or death.

The changes in China you are referring to are economic. They are not matched in the political field. How can the EU justify imposing sanctions on some dictatorships but not others?

These references to "how far China has come" are very similar to the references to "how far SF/IRA has come...etc. not killing people now just kneecapping them...well done lads". The leaders of the Beijing regime are like Adams and McGuinness, promising improvements at some unspecified date, then we find out their still up to their old tricks. I say call a spade a spade, instead of congratulating someone for being a little less criminal.

If buying weapons is to massacre people. The "evil" regime of China would just have killed them cheaply, with the cheapest rifles or something. Why would a regime buy expensive weapons to kill some people when they can do it at a much lower price. Also, it would be very bad for a nations PR (public rating) to do so.
Seeing that the US is starting wars here and there, my guess is that China wants to be well armed??
But I think their main point is that every country should be treated equally.

elvis2002

I agree go to China! Its a brilliant place. You wont get shot going down the streets. I dont understand why so many of you think China is a war zone and unsafe. Chinese people believe that Ireland is a warzone so i guess it swings both ways. Sometimes I wonder why people are so biggoted.

"China is definitely a potential threat" hahahahhahahha. This statement doesnt make any sense what so ever.

Roisin Dubh

If buying weapons is to massacre people. The "evil" regime of China would just have killed them cheaply, with the cheapest rifles or something. Why would a regime buy expensive weapons to kill some people when they can do it at a much lower price. Also, it would be very bad for a nations PR (public rating) to do so.Seeing that the US is starting wars here and there, my guess is that China wants to be well armed??
But I think their main point is that every country should be treated equally.

Well first of all as a nuclear powered nation they is zero % chance of the US invading them. No nuclear armed country has ever been invaded by a foreign government.

China is constantly threatening to invade Taiwan to reunite it "with the motherland etc." Traditionally Taiwan was able to deter Beijing from invading with a superior airforce, but if China is able to modernise its army with Western built weapons, then the balance will shift further towards Beijing, as it has been recently.

Also, the Taiwan Relations Act in the US requires the US to defend Taiwan. So weapons sold by the EU could theoretically end up being used against the US in a war over whether Taiwan should be democratic or communist. It's clear which side you would be on :rolleyes:

Bash the US all you like but sometimes war is justified and while I have mixed feelings on Iraq, at least the US isn't incorporating Iraq as the 51st state, unlike Chinese incorporation of oppressed and invaded Tibet.

You say Tibetans would live better seperated from China? Then why does Dalai Lama say something else?

He hopes to lessen repression by the Chinese against Tibetans by turning down the volume.

When USA wanted freedom UK attacked. Taiwan wants freedom, has China attacked?

They have 800 missiles aimed at Taiwan. They are always ranting about invading and I feel that they eventually will, and that helping the Commies modernise their army will bring forward that day. They may take a chance that the US won't intervene in that event.

The EU could face economic sanctions from the US in the event of lifting the arms embargo.

As said, no country is perfect and China are definately no saints! But bear in mind that China is undergoing huge development and thats what the state focuses on, not some personal intrest.

Burma would also be undergoing "huge" economic development if the West chose to end sanctions on its regime. Are you advocating we do that? You really don't give a damn about human-rights do you?

Agreeing with Hobbes, if you do not like a regime, boycott their goods!

First thing you've said today I agree with.

Err0r

Well first of all as a nuclear powered nation they is zero % chance of the US invading them. No nuclear armed country has ever been invaded by a foreign government.

China is constantly threatening to invade Taiwan to reunite it "with the motherland etc." Traditionally Taiwan was able to deter Beijing from invading with a superior airforce, but if China is able to modernise its army with Western built weapons, then the balance will shift further towards Beijing, as it has been recently.

Also, the Taiwan Relations Act in the US requires the US to defend Taiwan. So weapons sold by the EU could theoretically end up being used against the US in a war over whether Taiwan should be democratic or communist. It's clear which side you would be on :rolleyes:

If theres a 0% change of China getting invaded, then why are you fearing a WIII?

Bash the US all you like but sometimes war is justified and while I have mixed feelings on Iraq, at least the US isn't incorporating Iraq as the 51st state, unlike Chinese incorporation of oppressed and invaded Tibet.

Why should US incorporate Iraq as the 51st state, and would they really want to? I not really sure about the Tibet issue, but I thought it had always been a part of China (as there are over 50 minority groups in China).

He hopes to lessen repression by the Chinese against Tibetans by turning down the volume.

oh, is that so. what about the millions the evil regime is pouring into tibet, just for show? some places in tibet are actually starting to look ok (http://images.google.se/images?q=lhasa&hl=sv&lr=&sa=N&tab=wi). also you must know that tibet has a very high amount of monks, i think it was 60% of the male population, well they sure do much getting tibet out of poverty.

They have 800 missiles aimed at Taiwan. They are always ranting about invading and I feel that they eventually will, and that helping the Commies modernise their army will bring forward that day. They may take a chance that the US won't intervene in that event.

Yup, it's a two-way thing

The EU could face economic sanctions from the US in the event of lifting the arms embargo.

Yes, it's not a easy decision for the EU. But if the US sets up sanctions just because of that, it will be clear that the US are just being childish again.

Burma would also be undergoing "huge" economic development if the West chose to end sanctions on its regime. Are you advocating we do that? You really don't give a damn about human-rights do you?

Umm, I didn't talk about human rights. This is a political forum, not an activist forum. If you really care about human rights so much, then why do you only clank down on China ("It's clear which side you are be on" :rolleyes: )?

I suggest that you read this (and as I said, no country is perfect). Yes, China might be the worst of these 3... but is under development... new laws being made, etc, etc, etc (you wouldnt care)
http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/chn-summary-eng
http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/usa-summary-eng
http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/Irl-summary-eng

Btw, I answered (or at least tryed) all your comments, but you only chose my easy ones.

Roisin Dubh

I not really sure about the Tibet issue, but I thought it had always been a part of China (as there are over 50 minority groups in China).

That's like saying that Ireland was always part of Britain bearing in mind so many ethnic groups in Britain. Nonsense. I understand Tibet was ruled by China since the 1300's until 1912 - when Tibet threw out Chinese troops - after which Chinese troops returned in 1949 and forced the Dali Llama to sign a pact called the Thirteen Point Plan habding control of Tibet to China, which is a shorter period than since 1169 in Ireland's case, yet we are not arguing that we should rightfully be ruled over by China. Or are you?

No-one should be forced under the thumb of a brutal dictatorship, nor should we trust statistics from China about Tibet. The reason China is as you put it "throwing millions into Tibet" is colonisation. They are building a railway to Tibet to increase the flood of Chinese colonists into Tibet. Tibetans are now a minority in Tibet, and after taking over Tibet in 1949, China redrew its border to incorporate 70% of original Tibet into neighbouring Chinese provinces,

Also:http://www.eubusiness.com/afp/050305094927.gtzvemjq

Lawmakers cite possible US trade retaliation if EU lifts China arms embargo

The United States is worried about a European-supplied Chinese military buildup, and Congress has made it clear it could retaliate with trade restrictions if Europe lifts its arms embargo on China.

"I suspect there would be prohibition on a great number of technical skills and materials or products available to Europeans. It could change very much some multinational business plans," said Richard Lugar, chairman of the US Senate Committee on Foreign Relations.

What worries Americans "is not just a concern about China being a competitor, it's a concern about China building up arms, trying to intimidate Taiwan," Senator George Allen said after President George W. Bush debriefed lawmakers Tuesday about his European trip.

"And we know that the People's Republic of China are proliferators of arms, as are the North Koreans," Allen said.

Allen suggested joint NATO military exercises could come up for reconsideration.

The House of Representatives adopted a resolution a month ago calling on Europe not to lift the embargo. The resolution passed by a vote of 411 to three.

A similar text has been presented in the upper chamber of Congress by a dozen influential senators from both parties. "There is a good possibility that the Senate will pass a similar resolution," a spokesman for Senator Gordon Smith said Friday.

The embargo on arms sales to China was instigated after the bloody repression of a pro-democracy movement in early 1989, which killed hundreds and possibly thousands.

But during their summit in Brussels on December 17 EU leaders stated their willingness to lift the embargo and said a decision to do so could come before the end of June.

Bush communicated his displeasure with the plan during his European trip and implicitly charged US lawmakers with finding a way to dissuade the Europeans.

"If in fact they actually put in place enforceable -- enforceable -- rules, relative to what's able to be exported... and if in fact they're clear in what they're talking about, theoretically it's possible" that Congress would accept a lifting of the arms embargo, top Democratic Senator Joseph Biden said.

But "based on what the Europeans are talking about, generally, it's a non-starter with the Congress," he added.

Smith's spokesman said that since the start of the attempt to put together a resolution on the EU and China, US lawmakers have increased their contacts with European elected officials, notably French and German, to persuade them not to lift the embargo.

The issue carries more significance for transatlantic relations than for Sino-American ties, an aid to Biden said.

"It's more a transatlantic issue," said Biden, adding that the Senate was not likely to take concrete measures until the EU lifts the embargo.

Hobbes

Poker_Peter wrote:

If a programmed western american view on china means despising their dictatorship, which executes people for such horrendous crimes as verbally supporting Tibetan independence

Linkage?

Sand wrote:

China has an exspansionist agenda regarding Taiwan at the very least,

At one point in time Taiwan was part of China, they had to give it up as part of the Sino-Japanese war. There have also been found on the island artifacts from the three kingdoms which would suggest that the Chinese were there long before the Dutch got there.

But even so it is amazing how people go on about how China is planning to take Taiwan but the rest of the world is happy to let them.. Yes you heard me. Don't believe me? There is a law in China that you cannot write "Taiwan" as a country or you can go to jail/face fine or loose import/export license in China.

Find me a company/country that doesn't comply to this. (Clue: US actually complies to this).

People go on about the censorship in China as well.. well wake up call a lot of the technology used to censor its people is supplied by the west.

Likewise with Tibet. At one time it was part of China (which was agreed by various other countries).

Anyway it is very unlikely that China would be given an embargo as the rest of the world is so dependant on its exports. It certainly would never be attacked.

It is also Bushes regime that have stated that Taiwan is and has always been part of China (Powells speech in 2004).

Roisin Dubh

At one point in time Taiwan was part of China, they had to give it up as part of the Sino-Japanese war. There have also been found on the island artifacts from the three kingdoms which would suggest that the Chinese were there long before the Dutch got there.

Yes they lost it to Japan then got it back. Then it was held by the Chinese Nationalists in the civil war with the Communists. Taiwan has since flowered into what China should be, a multiparty democracy with all the rights we associate with a Western democracy, and tons richer than China in terms of what people there on average, are earning.

But even so it is amazing how people go on about how China is planning to take Taiwan but the rest of the world is happy to let them.. Yes you heard me. Don't believe me? There is a law in China that you cannot write "Taiwan" as a country or you can go to jail/face fine or loose import/export license in China.

Find me a company/country that doesn't comply to this. (Clue: US actually complies to this).

The US position is that Taiwan is part of China but should not be forced to join China by military means, ie only peaceful means should be used.

People go on about the censorship in China as well.. well wake up call a lot of the technology used to censor its people is supplied by the west.

Likewise with Tibet. At one time it was part of China (which was agreed by various other countries).

Only in the same sense that Ireland was once considered part of Britain. Do you think it was part of Britain?

Anyway it is very unlikely that China would be given an embargo as the rest of the world is so dependant on its exports. It certainly would never be attacked.

It is also Bushes regime that have stated that Taiwan is and has always been part of China (Powells speech in 2004).

Actually the value of US trade with Ireland is 3 times than between the US and China. Ireland exports just 2% of its exports to China. But if we continue the way we are going we are going to create a dependence on China economically that will make it harder for us to criticise them in future. I don't agree with us doing that.

I am convinced that trade and human rights should be linked.