Gun Safes

E@gle.

I just have a question about my gun safe and where to put it. I know that the safe has to be put out of sight. Is a walk in wardrope in a bedroom acceptable to have Your gun safe.

Sparks

It's totally dependant on your local superintendent at the end of the day, but so long as it's bolted to a wall, it's usually been okay from all that I've heard.

chem

Hi E@gle.

One or two things about the safe.
Its always best to use heavy-duty expanding rawlbolts or sleeve anchors, and just try and make sure its a solid wall you drill into (",)

As well as that if you can, place the gun cabinet so that it is the left hand side of the door against the wall. most cabinets open to the right, so this will leave it alot more difficult for someone to crowbar it open (touch wood).

But having said that i was told before of a gunsafe which was located two floors up in a house and weighing over a ton, being pulled off the wall and taken out of the house and loaded into a van! I dont think the guns were ever recovered.

Hope this helps a wee bit

Irishglockfan

If it an old house,make sure your brickwork isnt old and crumbly!Took me Three attempts to find a wall that would be strong enough to hold the cabinet!The rawlbolts just wouldnt lock in old redbrick.

homerhop

What happens if you live in a timber framed house?

Sparks

homerhop wrote:

What happens if you live in a timber framed house?

Bolt it to a joist. Or to the concrete floor if there's one downstairs.

dave1

can you make your own gun safe, will the guards leave you use it.i mean a good metal one with a very strong door. if so how many locks must it have. has any one got any help

civdef

Myself and my brother built a gunsafe, it was passed. The guard in question commented it provided more security than the BS standard model.

E@gle.

Legally does ammo also have to be stored in a safe or just hidden??

Sparks

There's nothing in the firearms acts, but I suspect that other legislation would apply to the storage of ammunition, probably through tort law. I don't think it would legally have to be a safe though, just a lockbox or some other reasonably secure out-of-the-way storage.

However (there's always one of these, isn't there?), if the local superintendent says you have to have an ammo safe, that's pretty much it really. And if you had a few hundred rounds stolen off a bookshelf by a burglar, I'd hate to be the one who had to explain it to the gardai.

These concerns aside, a safe's a good idea because not only does it keep ammo safe from kids/burglars/etc, it also gives you an enclosed space which you can control for temperature and humidity, which as you know are important factors relating to the accuracy of stored ammunition...

civdef

There's nothing in the firearms acts, but I suspect that other legislation would apply to the storage of ammunition, probably through tort law.

How exactly?

Sparks

Well, say you had ten thousand rounds of lapua sitting on a shelf somewhere in the house and there was a fire and the rounds cooked off and one of them hit a firefighter. There'd be a case there that you knew there was a possibility of a fire (as you had fire&theft insurance and smoke alarms and both fire blankets and a fire extinguisher in the house), and that you knew that fire could set off a round of ammunition (because you're not daft) and that you knew the damage a round could do if it hit someone (because you're a well-trained shooter), and that by not having safe storage for the ammunition that you failed in a basic duty of care towards the public (your licence is granted on the condition that you not be a danger to the public).
Whether or not such a case would succeed is another thing entirely - there is the argument that had you had those rounds in an ordinary metal box that it would have made for a more serious explosion, though there's the counter-argument that fireproof safes are commercially available at reasonable cost and that ammunition has survived house fires without going off in such safes - but frankly I'd rather not have to find out the hard way. Besides, in order to get into such a case, someone would have to have been hurt and I'd rather not see that. So all the ammunition I have is kept in the safe, and I'm looking to get a seperate safe for it in a while.

Irishglockfan

Sparks wrote:

Well, say you had ten thousand rounds of lapua sitting on a shelf somewhere in the house and there was a fire and the rounds cooked off and one of them hit a firefighter.

That could be pretty unique!! A round if heated generally explodes,or ruptures its case. Usually the primer goes off first.It has to be contained in a barrel to have any power to cause damage or injury.Shotgun cartridges generally melt [plastic ]and cook off with a thrilling puff of smoke




, though there's the counter-argument that fireproof safes are commercially available at reasonable cost and that ammunition has survived house fires without going off in such safes

But can you get one that could hold a couple of K of shotgun ammo or rifle ammo?without breaking the bank.If all of that decided to let go in a contained box[safe]?
It would be intresting to ask a FD what they feel about storing ammo in bulk?
Considering that there are more explosive things in an average household than ammo.



but frankly I'd rather not have to find out the hard way. rather not see that. So all the ammunition I have is kept in the safe, and I'm looking to get a seperate safe for it in a while.

Doesnt it say firearms and ammo MUST be stored seperatly?

What i am thinking of doing is get an old filing cabinet and reenforce its locks with a double bar and padlock.Ammo can cook off prety safley and it is sorted by drawer[calibre] cheap and in the letter of the law.

Sparks

Doesnt it say firearms and ammo MUST be stored seperatly?

Not that I can see, at least not in the current acts. There's mention of storage facilities only in the case of an authorisation, not a certificate so far as I've been able to find:

A Superintendent shall not grant an authorisation under this section unless he is satisfied having regard to all the circumstances (including the provision made or to be made for the storage of the firearms and ammunition to which the authorisation (if granted) would relate and the supervision of their use) that the possession, use or carriage, as the case may be, of firearms or ammunition in pursuance of the authorisation will not endanger the public safety or the peace.

On the other hand, Dunne v. Donoghue did make the point that the bit in Section 4 where the superintendent has to be sure the person wouldn't be a danger to the public if given a certificate has seen a lot of emphasis on the "use" and "carrying" of firearms, and not a lot on the "possession" bit in the certificate, and that that "possession" implies storage.

Ammo can cook off prety safley

I dunno 'bout that glock, thin mild steel versus .22lr rounds wouldn't be a contest I'd want to see up close and personal And if you'd anything larger in there, well, it wouldn't really be a contest!

civdef

Sparks wrote:

I dunno 'bout that glock, thin mild steel versus .22lr rounds wouldn't be a contest I'd want to see up close and personal And if you'd anything larger in there, well, it wouldn't really be a contest!

Ammo cooking off outside the chamber of a weapon poses little risk other than of spreading the fire. Without the containment provided by a barrel pressures generated are very low and studies have shown firefighters protective clothing will stop the round before it does any harm.

Sparks

civdef wrote:

Ammo cooking off outside the chamber of a weapon poses little risk other than of spreading the fire. Without the containment provided by a barrel pressures generated are very low and studies have shown firefighters protective clothing will stop the round before it does any harm.

Yup, SSAMI did some studies on various kinds of ammo (they have a video detailing this which was produced for firefighters). Thing is, ten thousand rounds cooking off is a bit of a different prospect than solo rounds - even with solo rounds it was found that dependant on crimping and load, some rounds could be rather energetic when they let go. Centerfire rounds, for example, if crimped tightly would blow their primers out rather explosively.

Still though, there's always one - so I wouldn't want to witness any of this personally