New planned town in west dublin

kilman

I hear that in order to progress the peace process in the North unionists are pushing for the next SDZ town to be called Paisleytown to balance the Adamstown been built in West Dublin.

Flukey

The Adamstown development is good except... it is in the wrong place. It should be well away from Dublin, like west of the Shannon. There is nothing wrong with Dublin's transport infrastructure per se; we just have too many people using it. Adamstown will only add more to it.

Even the Laois developments seem to be building places to sleep for people who work in Dublin. The best thing we can do for Dublin's transport gridlock is to encourage more people to live and work outside of Dublin. Adamstown therefore should be built somewhere in the regions with an employment infrastructure around it so that people can live and work in the area. Similarly the developments in Laois should be built only if people can live and work in those areas. Proper regional development will benefit the regions and Dublin.

ishmael whale

Clearly the stuff about “There is nothing wrong with Dublin's transport infrastructure per se; we just have too many people using it.” is bunkum. Looking at through the right end of the telescope, what you are really saying is Dublin’s transport system is inadequate, unless you intend to institute Year Zero and order us all into the countryside for political re-education.

However, you have a point about the need to adopt the Adamstown approach in the regions. As I understand it Adamstown is simply meant to be an area where high density housing development proceeds in tandem with delivery of necessary services – i.e. schools, transport etc. The fact that housing is high density aids the provision of services. This represents an improvement on just building houses here and there and hoping for the best, a la recent Laois county plan.

The present approach to planning in the West seems to be allow lots of one-off houses scattered throughout the countryside and then express amazement that the resulting population distribution can’t be served by public transport (or, worse, express incredulity that central government won’t fund rail services). An Adamstown approach to development would address this. But it would mean that some place would have to be the centre for development, and others not. There just doesn’t seem to be the political will in the West to take that kind of decision. They couldn’t do it over Hanly, and I honestly don’t seem them being able to do it on planning. Banging on central government for more resources is one thing, but taking decision that, say, Galway will be the main centre for development and Ballina won’t is quite another.

gurramok

Flukey wrote:

The Adamstown development is good except... it is in the wrong place. It should be well away from Dublin, like west of the Shannon. There is nothing wrong with Dublin's transport infrastructure per se; we just have too many people using it. Adamstown will only add more to it.

There is one flaw, most people who will live in adamstown will be desperate dubs who do not wish to move down the country.
I agree with Ishmael, it takes political will for anything to happen west of the shannon.

I wonder if this new housing development will
(A) - turn into another neglected massive housing estate with no promised facilities
(B) - have any affect on house prices as its bound to suck up a bit of demand ?

murphaph

I sincerely hope this project bears fruit. If done correctly (I know where we live!) it could be so successful. The whole thing hinges on access to a very high quality DART service to the city centre-that's right, the DRP/Interconnector is required for this thing to work. Plain and simple. There are successful examples of this type of thing elsewhere but we've seen such horrendous lack of respect for citizens from 'planners' in the past (especially in Lucan; Lawlor et al), that's it understandably difficult for people to be optimistic.

Flukey

It is only going to encourage more people to come and live in the Dublin area. My point about Dublin being overcrowded is valid. There are far too many people proportionately living in and around Dublin and working there. Many of the people living and working in Dublin would move "home" if they could. There is nothing for them where they were living, which is the problem. If the likes of Adamstown could be built well outside Dublin, it would be good. The Laois developments in their so-called county development plan, is more for people working in Dublin that for people in Laois. It is not developing Laois, if all they are doing is providing a place for Dublin workers to sleep. Some of that investment and development should be channelled into developing other things for the county, not just building houses. The local economy benefits very little. What is needed is for those people to be spending more than overnight in the area.

If you had half a dozen Adamstown type developments with places for people to work in those areas, then Dublin wouldn't be as overcrowded. It is not a simple solution and I am not claiming it is. Both of these developments, one on its doorstep and one a long way away from it, are both actually helping to make things worse in Dublin. The focus is wrong.

silverside

haha Dublin isnt overcrowded at all - very little high rise, many people living within 2 or 3 miles of the city have their own terraced houses with front and back gardens. There are transport problems granted but that is partly because the city is so spread out, partly because the proper transport infrastructure both public and private hasn't been provided as needed. People want to live around dublin because thats where the jobs and facilities are, if adamstown isnt build they would end up living in the greater dublin area anyway. It's better that they live somewhere where they have the option to commute by public transport.

Flukey

silverside wrote:

People want to live around dublin because thats where the jobs and facilities are

That's the whole point. We should be putting in more jobs and facilities in other parts of the country. It is not even true to say that people "want" to live around Dublin. A lot of them would much rather be living and working in the places they originate from. They come to Dublin because very little is being done in their own areas. If there was more being done, they'd be back living there like a shot. Dublin may be spread out, but meanwhile half the rest of the country is empty and getting emptier. That is where the focus needs to be.

ishmael whale

A lot of the problem with what you are saying is how you are presenting it. The ‘people want to be living down home’ stuff belongs to another time, if it was ever really true. The failure of the Government to find enough volunteers for the decentralisation is evidence of this.

Remember that, at the end of the day, Adamstown is not planned simply because the Government decided to lavish resources on the place. Its simply a fact that companies turn up wanting to set up in Dublin, and people come to work there and there is absolutely no reason why this should not be the case. The “Dublin’s too big” thing is just misty eyed hokum.

Consideration of the fact that providing the Limerick Ennis commuter service came with a capital cost per passenger six times that of the Luas illustrates that we can more easily afford to accommodate extra people in Dublin than in regional locations. But this is not to say that the regions should be ignored. Just don’t kid yourself that by promoting regional development you’re doing Dublin a favour. You’re not, because the resources won’t achieve as much.

If you are truly interested in this topic I’d suggest getting acquainted with the national spatial strategy. Yes, it has been ignored (apart from a brief citation to cloak changing the rules to let Ikea into Dublin). But I feel the research section you’ll find on their website is an immensely valuable resource.( http://www.irishspatialstrategy.ie/)

The essential picture is that promoting regional development involves promoting concentration in the regions. Putting it simply, indeed it could involve putting an Adamstown in Cork or Galway or Limerick. But it would also involve designating those places as centres for development and not investing much in Claremorris, Nenagh and a hundred other small towns. That’s the political issue that’s never been addressed, and the real reason the regions don't attract development.

murphaph

It's a nonsense to be saying that all people from the regions want to live 'down home'. I know loads of folks who couldn't wait to move to Dublin and much prefer living in a big city with things to do. Not just work, entertainment etc. All over the world people flock to cities to live/work/enjoy life.....isn't that where we get the civilisation from? Dublin is no different from certain big cities in large provinces of France or Germany, mostly rural with a big city or two. Stuttgart in Badem-Wurtemberg or Munich (and to a much lesser extent Nuremberg) in Bavaria. People all flock to these cities from the provinces. It's an economy of scale. Transport/communication hubs and links can't be provided to and within every piss-pot village so people have always congregated in cities (since civilisation). It's a very valid point that (Ishmael I think made) that The regions have been awful at picking places for real development because the politicians are afraid of leaving somewhere else out and all politics is local and you get higgledy-piggledy factories dotted around Ireland. I disagree with the notion that every factory that locates outside Dublin is great. Take one look at some pissy little town where that one factory has closed down and everybody and his aunt is fcuked out on the dole with no other job prospects for miles around. At least with cities there are other places to find work. The labour market is far more flexible.

Zaph0d

Flukey wrote:

If you had half a dozen Adamstown type developments with places for people to work in those areas, then Dublin wouldn't be as overcrowded.

There is nothing to stop county councils outside Dublin zoning new towns like Adamstown. Building Adamstown in no way prevents similar developments taking place around the country.

Dublin's problem is not overcrowding: 30,000 people living on 5,000 acres in Lucan is not overcrowding. Spending 2 hours in traffic to get from one suburb to another is the problem. If the city had been built at Adamstown densities along rail lines, every part of the city could be reachable in under an hour, door to door.

Metrobest

Nice to see the government milking the Adamstown PR for all it was worth. I have to say I'm a bit sceptical. With three development companies involved, I see greed becoming the dominant feature. All the lovely bits of promised infrastructure will probably fail to materialise and we'll be left with a sprawling miniature Tallaght. The government seems to think by planting a few schools in there, it will be a utopian place to live. When I see Adamstown, I see more sprawl, more ugly development, more demands on the road network and more drivel from the "socialist" Bertie government.

P11 Comms

"My point about Dublin being overcrowded is valid. "

Dublin is not even close to being overcrowded. For its size it is way underpopulated. Dublin is a small European capital with a small population.

Then again, I have heard Sligo being called " a large urban centre" by the Western Rail Corridor crowd...

Capt'n Midnight

any sign of major roads for it ?

10,000 houses = 20,000 Dinky cars *
Actually it's more if you remember that a lot of the properties will be rented and that people are buying cars at a younger age - probably hit 25,000 very soon.

According to this http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2360427&postcount=18 you only need 10,000 per day for a dual carraige way - the road beside adamstown will have about 40,0000 (out and back to work, never mind trips to shops & social and domestic), at present there is a single lane on each side of the road and if you turn right it a one-way canal bridge with lights so traffic from each side can only use it 1/3 of the time



*Double Income - No Kids Yet

Zaph0d

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

According to this http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2360427&postcount=18 you only need 10,000 per day for a dual carraige way - the road beside adamstown will have about 40,0000 (out and back to work, never mind trips to shops & social and domestic)

Here's a table of road capacities that the NRA uses in its Road and Bridge Design Manual

In the above table categories C, D and E refer to average traffic speeds. D is 80kph and C is 94kph. The numbers are average, two-way traffic volumes per 24 hours.

They also have an online short brochure about road capacity planning.

spacetweek

Zaph0d wrote:

Here's a table of road capacities that the NRA uses in its Road and Bridge Design Manual

When Captain Midnight quotd me it was the table above that I used to get the 10,000 figure from. The NRA use Level C as their guideline. Adamstown is near a city so you use Commuter. The numbers are the max number of vehicles that road type can carry. So, DC has a max of 45,000 vehicles per day. The next type down, wide 2-lane, has a max of 10,000. So, therefore, once the traffic goes above 10,000, you should be upgrading to the next best type of road. If Adamstown produces 40,000 vehicles a day, then with dual carriageways all over Lucan, the place is screwed.

On a side note, it's interesting to note that the max for a (4-lane) motorway is 56,500. The Red Cow section of the M50 apparently carries around 90-100,000 vehicles a day. It should already be 8 lanes (56,500 x 2 = 130,000).

Victor

spacetweek wrote:

On a side note, it's interesting to note that the max for a (4-lane) motorway is 56,500.

I imagine thats maximum uncongested, assuming a certain type of peak traffic flow.

If the road was used to it's full capacity 24 hours a day, it could probably have 200,000 vehicles a day. Note that HGVs and busses are counted as two vehicles in such traffic counts.

Flukey

P11, I know Dublin isn't overcrowded by international standards. It is a very small city with a small population as you said. I agree. It is just that it's population in relation to the rest of the country, is high. It is more a case that there are not enough people in the other parts of the country. There is room for plenty more. We have an imbalance. In that sense, Dublin is overpopulated and the rest of the country is underpopulated!

Murphaph, of course not everyone from the country originally, that lives in Dublin wants to go "home", but some do. There are also the people working in Dublin, but not living here, the commuters. They'd much rather be able to work locally than having to spend several hours a day going to work. Even those of us living in Dublin have to do that. As you said if the one factory in that town closes down, many people are in trouble, but that is why there needs to be more development there.

Government decentralisation, I don't agree with. You have to have all the government departments head offices together. Some of the more independent functions within the civil service could be moved out of Dublin, as many already are, but not whole departments. There is however a lot of businesses in Dublin that could set up or at least have more offices outside of Dublin. In this technological economy we have, many companies based in Dublin could operate anywhere. Not everywhere has it, but a lot of places outside Dublin do have the necessary infrastructure to maintain such businesses. Property like land or offices would be cheaper outside Dublin too im many cases. Some companies would gain by having bases outside Dublin.

There is too much focus on Dublin. I am a Dubliner. I love Dublin. I think it is great to see the new development in the city and once derelict and abandoned places coming alive. The change along the quays over the past 15 years or so is immense and long may it continue. We just need more of the same elsewhere too.

Other towns are growing, but things are disproportionately based on Dublin. Even the other cities don't come close and even if you total some of them together. If you ever listen to the daily national traffic reports, it takes longer to list the problems in Dublin than it does for the whole of the rest of the country, including the other cities. Those 5000 acres for Adamstown will have almost the entire population of county Leitrim. There is a lot of development going on outside Dublin, but as with the Laois developments, a lot of them are not really benefitting their locations. They are just houses for people who'll spend most of their day in Dublin. The local area only gets some of the potential benefits of them being there. They'll eat and buy food in Dublin more likely, than locally. While they may be living in it, they are not fully adding to the local economy.

Adamstown is great. They just should also be doing it elsewhere with the same sort of gusto. There is certainly scope for it!

Zaph0d

spacetweek wrote:

On a side note, it's interesting to note that the max for a (4-lane) motorway is 56,500. The Red Cow section of the M50 apparently carries around 90-100,000 vehicles a day. It should already be 8 lanes (56,500 x 2 = 130,000).

The pattern seems to be that the NRA predicts the traffic volume for the road and builds a road to handle that capacity at 94kph or 80kph. By the time the road is built, it is surrounded by car dependent housing estates and warehouse shops, eager to use the free capacity on the new road. Traffic volumes actually exceed predicted demand and a cycle of unsuccessful attempts at digging our way out of the car traffic demand hole starts.

With the increased car use caused by these roads comes congestion on the feeder roads, along with obesity, pollution, road fatalities, time wasted in traffic and plans for the next two lanes that will finally satisfy the demand monster.

Victor

Flukey wrote:

Adamstown is great. They just should also be doing it elsewhere with the same sort of gusto. There is certainly scope for it!

Note the "North Fringe" between Malahide Road and Baldoyle.

elivsvonchiaing

Quite honestly I think Dublin is underpopulated - we need more population density in suburbs - no other way can a metro be justified - think high rise should be considered in suburbs also. It is definitely over-populated with cars though. It is starting to look like a metro system would need a coup d'état to implement :mad:

murphaph

Flukey wrote:

Murphaph, of course not everyone from the country originally, that lives in Dublin wants to go "home", but some do.

Unfortuneately their local 'representatives' cannot agree on structured development of towns in rural Ireland. Everyone seems to want a small slice of pie and nobody is prepared to see the next town over becoming a business/resdiential centre for fear their own town will die. If the regions got their act together and really implemented the NSS we might actually see some balanced development.

Flukey wrote:

Those 5000 acres for Adamstown will have almost the entire population of county Leitrim. There is a lot of development going on outside Dublin, but as with the Laois developments, a lot of them are not really benefitting their locations.

Leitrim is a really bad example. Did you know that through the baby-boom of the 60's that Leitrim was the only county on the island to suffer a population decline?!

Zaph0d

Flukey wrote:

Those 5000 acres for Adamstown will have almost the entire population of county Leitrim.

Adamstown will cover 550 acres with a population of 20,000 to 25,000. Lucan covers 5,000 acres. Leitrim covers 392,000 acres

P11 Comms

"P11, I know Dublin isn't overcrowded by international standards. It is a very small city with a small population as you said. I agree. It is just that it's population in relation to the rest of the country, is high. It is more a case that there are not enough people in the other parts of the country. There is room for plenty more. We have an imbalance. In that sense, Dublin is overpopulated and the rest of the country is underpopulated!"


True, but millions of people are very contented to live and work in the GDR. The only way this will change is when people on the East Coast want to leave by their own freewill.

Parlon's Libenstrum masterplan along with the rantings of the likes of the IFA and the Council for the West being used as alternatives to changing the socio-economic dynamic away from the Gombeen Agenda is the real reason it has fallen so behind.

Dublin/East has moved on and the West wants to pull Dublin back rather than try to catch up.