Speeding ticket

Chipboard

I received a speeding ticket in the post yesterday called a non intercept (meaning they dont stop you), stating that my car had been detected doing 45mph in a 30mph zone around 5 miles away from where I live on over a month ago. Now like most people I cant remember my exact movements 5 weeks ago so I have to just accept that it probably happened and that I was driving (a friend of mine who lives two doors up regularly drives my car, and me his).

The issue I have is this. Around three years ago I was chased by a squad car with blue flashiing lights for doing 53mph in a 40mph speed limit. Not being one to get into an argument with a garda on the side of the road (especially as he was all fired up with his blue lights and everything), I took the ticket and resolved to go to court to point out that both me and the squad car had actually been in a 63mph limit at the time of the alledged offence (because of the position of the squad car it would have been pretty easy to prove beyond a reasonable doubt). I didnt pay the on the spot fine and was never summonsed to court, I suppose the garda must have realised his error afterwards and tore up the stubs.

My point is this - who's to say that the garda who clocked me 5 weeks ago didnt make a similar mistake. The letter only specified the road it happened on, not the exact location. It seems a bit unfair that an automated letter can arrive through my postbox 5 weeks after the alledged offence when its too late for me to put up any credible defence. If that garda had to stop me, I could have accepted or rejected the allegation according to the circumstances, but now I can do nothing but pay up and get another 2 points. The first 2 points I got were for doing 49 in a 40. I accept that because they stopped me and I know it happened but I'm less than happy to accept these 2 points. If I choose to go to court on this ticket, I will be convicted of speeding, get fined up to €1500 and/or 3 months imprisonment, get 4 penalty points and possible disqualification.

Am I the only one who thinks this is a bit unfair?

BrianD

There should be no delay in justice and it is unfair that speeding fines are taking so long to arrive.

If you are loaning your car on a regular basis you should keep a diary. I had a similar experience in work where I am insured to drive a colleagues company car. He was nabbed by a gatso doing 56 in a 40mph zone at Newlands X. I had to check back through my diary to see if I used on that particular day and it turned out that I didn't. It's a pain in the ass but it will prevent unfortunate arguements occuring in the future.

I suppose you should check the speed limit on the road from end to end. If it varies you might be able to consult the local station and ask where the garda was stationed on the road. I don't know if the Gardai keep this type of record.

On final word of advice, slow down!

DubTony

Chipboard wrote:

Am I the only one who thinks this is a bit unfair?

No you're not. And it's not a bit unfair, it stinks to high heaven.

When did we, as a nation, presume guilt before innocence. Speed cameras and fat-arsed cops who can't be bothered to apprehend speeders have become judge and jury.

The legislation allows those who are caught speeding to "cop a plea" and get a break on the "sentence". Instead of going to court and getting 4 points and a hefty fine, we opt for 2 points and a paltry €80 fine. So most people are happy to take the "plea" and get on with their lives.

But surely the real point to be made is this - What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty.

If your car was stolen and recorded speeding, there's a massive chance that you wouldn't get a fine. But if you lend it to someone who gets "caught" speeding, and you can't remember, after over a month, who was driving the car, that's tough.

A ... "well, it was your gun, so you must have killed him" ... sort of justice.

There used to be a time when the state would have to prove guilt. That's why the cop chased you in his car. So he'd know who he was going to charge. Not any more. Now he can stand on the side of the road and clock you as you go by. Why? So that he can catch more and more "scumbag speeders who are killing people all over the country".

Call it Conviction By Numbers

"Are you the owner of the said vehicle?"
"Yes, judge"
"GUILTY"

The sooner somebody appeals this sort of thing all the way to the top, the better. Although, in a nation of complacent people, who will allow the basic system of justice to be turned on it's head, it could be a long time before that happens.

Tony

BrianD

Those who speed are being caught. Stop complaining about quotas and numbers etc. If speed checks were more widespread you would be caught more often. The problem is that the speed traps are not widespread enough. There is a reasonable expectation that cop will be present on the N11 at Belfield. What we want is a reasonable expectation that there will be a speed cop on the R999 in the back of beyond.

Nearly all who challenge a conviction do so on a technicality just like the various challenges to breath tests etc. You don't hear people stating that they are innocent - I was not travelling at the speed you state or I was not drinking and driving. There should be no need for a printed receipt from a speed gun but there should better, more professional, more active and transparent policing.

I have come to the conclusion that 99% of the debate on this topic boils down to none other than one thing "I break the rules and I don't like getting caught".

DubTony

Brian, I didn't explain myself properly. When I said Conviction By Numbers I meant numbers, not amounts. Numbers like 03 D 78*** or 04 WW 32**.

The point I'm making is that people are being convicted without proper evidence. A camera takes a picture of a car and a person receives a fine. That's not justice. What I'm saying is that the system is wrong. Give me cops on the road any day who will follow me for a while and check my speed, or zap me with a laser gun. If I'm speeding, fair enough. At least I'll know where I was, how it happened, and that "I got done".

Again, Brian. My issue is not with the law being enforced. Bring them on. If they want to engineer cops with a laser gun in their right eye, I don't care. At least let me know when I do the deed that I'll be done on the spot.

I have come to the conclusion that 99% of the debate on this topic boils down to none other than one thing "I break the rules and I don't like getting caught".

I've already had a go at the "you did it so you should be caught" brigade on this forum. I'd rather not do it again. Comments like these bring nothing to the debate. I agree with many of the points you've made on these boards, yes we need more speed checks in rural areas. And absolutely, people need to slow down. But lets have reasoned debate about the topic and sometimes think before hitting that "Submit Reply" button

Tony

DubTony

Dundalk, Today, Saturday 5 February.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0205/rta.html

RTE web site wrote:

Gardaí say the jeep that was involved in the three vehicle accident outside Dundalk at*4am this morning had come to their attention earlier.

However, the garda in charge of the investigation, Supt Pat Magee, has denied reports that a garda patrol car was following the jeep at the time of the accident.

Maybe they were busy doing a NON-INTERCEPT speed check. Magee is basically saying that "we" didn't cause the accident. Maybe if his members had gotten off their arses and stopped the guy in the Beemer, two people would be alive tonight. I'll say it again. The system stinks.

Tony

Chipboard

Brian, in case you didn't actually read my post;

Chipboard wrote:

I accept that because they stopped me and I know it happened but I'm less than happy to accept these 2 points.

Does the above statement indicate that I am trying to get away with something I actually did. You are working on the assumption that a Garda cannot make a mistake and while this might have 'washed' ten or fifteen years ago, it wont wash now. Even you make mistakes Brian, if your man enough to admit it. So I'm going to make a huge leap now and assume that you accept that people (including Gardai) make mistakes (events in other parts of Co Louth yesterday proved that) and now I want to ask you, why should I have to pay an inflated insurance premium next october based on the whim of someone who is not infallible. A fair justice system is supposed to ensure that you only get punished if you committed an offence and absolutely everyone who believes they are innocent should get their day in court. I'm not destitute, I could hire a solicitor and go to court but I am not stupid and I know (and you know) that if I go to court I will get the book thrown at me because for political reasons the courts want to deter people from fighting these cases. Whether I was speeding or not is never going to come into it. I used to have a huge amount of respect for Gardai but as far as I'm concerned they are now nothing more than tax collectors. There are hundreds of people dying on the roads every year and I believe that a large proportion of these deaths are because of other factors like the bad condition of the roads and the lack of proper regulated driver training, but do you see the resources being poured into that. No, because targeting the speeder is revenue positive, putting a barrier along the median of the M1 or the M50 would cost money.

BrianD

I have read your post and I'm tired of reading them. I am tired of people who state "please read my post before replying". Usually, this is stated when you don't agree it. The next line is " you must work for them ..." Yawn.

It's all the same "I was caught speeding, is there any technicality I can get off on" and so on. Ask yourself the questions - what was the limit on the road and do I regularly speed. If yes, pay the fine and get on with it. I've often heard these discussions in the pub and all sorts of legal technicalities that can get on off the charge. It's hillarious ... "was he wearing his regulation boots, I know a fella who got off because ..."

Personally, I think the Garda is possibly one of the most unprofessional, inept and badly trained police forces in the world. I am a law abiding citizen who has "never been in trouble with guards" so it's not if I have some sort of personal vendetta. I just don't take them seriously any more.

The techniques used for the Gardai are used elsewhere in the world along with the same equipment. Oddly, the don't seem to have the same challenges as they have here. If you believe that there is an error then you have the option to challenge it but bringing every speeding ticket into court is a waste of time, resources and tax payers money. You are not guilty till proven innocent.

You don't need to be stopped on the day and handed a ticket but you do need to receive the ticket within a week or ten days. Justice should be speedy and 5 weeks for a speeding ticket is most unfair.

No, because targeting the speeder is revenue positive

Targeting the speeder is good and to be encouraged. We just need to get the Gardai to target them in more places. This is the annoying thing about traffic policing In Ireland and it is fair say that it is quota filling and revenue generation and not fair policing. Having said that, if you are doing 80 in a 60 at one of these popular locations you still speeding.

putting a barrier along the median of the M1 or the M50 would cost money.

Well I've made my views quite clear on this one. Please don't waste my money! Put the barrier money into a building a decent services area on the M1 that serves coffee and has a toilet!

Chipboard

Chipboard wrote:

targeting the speeder is revenue positive, putting a barrier along the median of the M1 or the M50 would cost money.

Irish Emigrant 6 Dec 2004
"For the second time in a month the National Roads Authority was criticised for its failure to install crash barriers on the central reservation of motorways. Last Sunday a car travelling south on the M50 crossed into the path of oncoming cars, between the Blanchardstown and Finglas exits. Three vehicles were involved in the ensuing pile-up and the seven occupants were hospitalised; two children were described as in a critical condition but a week later it was a 22-year-old woman, the driver of one of the north-bound cars, who died. An almost identical incident occurred on the M1 just north of Dublin Airport earlier last month. Three cars were also involved on that occasion and five people were injured, one critically. Criticism of the NRA over the absence of crash barriers is not new. Back in March 2001 a priest and two young men were killed within two kilometres of last Sunday's accident when the car carrying the two men crossed the central reservation. After the M1 accident the NRA finally accepted the need to retrofit crash barriers"

BrianD wrote:

Please don't waste my money! Put the barrier money into a building a decent services area on the M1 that serves coffee and has a toilet!

Speaking as someone who arrived on the scene of the March 2001 accident referred to above, 20 minutes after it happened, I think your coffee and Rich Tea biscuit is a little bit down the pecking order.

Did you ever think of running for public office Brian, you could be part of the I'm Alright, F**k You Party.

Victor

Chipboard wrote:

No, because targeting the speeder is revenue positive,

Nope. The state doesn't make enough money from fines to cover the cost of implementing speed checks.

Zaph0d

Chipboard wrote:

If I choose to go to court on this ticket, I will be convicted of speeding, get fined up to €1500 and/or 3 months imprisonment, get 4 penalty points and possible disqualification.

God knows what kind of transaction processing system takes 5 weeks to send a letter. Anything to do with the justice system always seems to take ages.

If you go to court, presumably the police will have to provide evidence to prove to a judge that you are guilty. If they manage this you will be fairly convicted, if not fairly acquitted. if you're not sure whether you committed the offence you are being offered a plea bargain to reduce your punishment.

If you contact the cops, will they provide you with the photo evidence? It might be worth ringing them in any case and discussing the 'other-guy-driving' story. The cops speed all the time themselves so I'm sure they'll feel sympathy for you.

Speeding is an offence, like cannabis possession or mp3 piracy, with a tiny detection rate, so those caught feel, rightly, that they have had bad luck. The detection rate is so low that the deterrent effect of the punishment is almost zero. Increasing the severity of the punishment has no effect when the chance of being caught is next to nothing.

The govt's current plan is to outsource speed detection to an agency that would carry out millions of speed checks per year to the point where drivers would not be surprised when they were caught speeding. At that stage, the punishment for infringing the speed limits would become a deterrent and change people's behaviour. I'd guess it will be 2 years from now before this takes place. Around 750 people will die in road accidents in the meantime.

DubTony

Victor wrote:

Chipboard wrote:

No, because targeting the speeder is revenue positive,

Nope. The state doesn't make enough money from fines to cover the cost of implementing speed checks.

Targeting speeders generates revenue that can go some way toward implementing speed checks. Anyway, how much does it cost to have 2 guys hide behind a bus shelter for a couple of hours. In the grand scheme. It actually "costs" nothing. It is part of their job. So in that sense, it IS revenue positive.

Having said that, the way it's handled in this country is akin to printing money. Cops who don't pursue - and camera vans left on the verge of busy freeflow motorway / dual carraigeway junctions. If it was about safety and saving lives on Irish roads, the speed checks should be, as BrianD has stated several times, on dangerous rural roads.

The state may not generate enough revenue from speed checks, but it sure is trying.

BrianD

Speaking as someone who arrived on the scene of the March 2001 accident referred to above, 20 minutes after it happened, I think your coffee and Rich Tea biscuit is a little bit down the pecking order.

Did you ever think of running for public office Brian, you could be part of the I'm Alright, F**k You Party.

Off topic I know, but safety barriers are nor a priority. Politician calls for them to be installed after a freak accident are as lazy and ineffective as our speed checks. It has been debated on these pages whether speed is a major cause of road crashes as its made out to be. I would say that fatigue is a factor and the opportunity to have a coffee, a rich tea biscuit would certainly reduce road fatalities and injuries more than any irrelevant crash barrier will do.

If I was running for public office I would be calling for more PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for your actions instead of blaming or asking the nanny state to give you a dig out (which ever is appropriate at the time).

Victor

So, is it better that the Garda spends time **personally** delivering the ticket to you (and having to speed to catch up with you) or is it better for him to use economy of effort and specialisation (look it up under "industrial revolution") to try to catch as many people breaking the law as possible?

BrianD

Victor hits nail on head in one fell swoop.

jhegarty

Victor wrote:

So, is it better that the Garda spends time **personally** delivering the ticket to you (and having to speed to catch up with you) or is it better for him to use economy of effort and specialisation (look it up under "industrial revolution") to try to catch as many people breaking the law as possible?

that would be fine , but why does the letter take more than 1~2 days to post ?

Victor

jhegarty wrote:

that would be fine , but why does the letter take more than 1~2 days to post ?

Maybe theres a backlog and they can't hire more staff?

Maybe an individual garda waits until he completes a ticket book before processing them?

Maybe the address on the vehicle registration file was incomplete and it was slow in the post?

DubTony

The Mind Boggles

Tony

BrianD

There should be no excuse for tickets ariving 5 weeks after the event (seems to be the norm now). You hardly see Gardai on the streets nowadays so one assumes that they must be doing the paperwork ... then again they must be doing something else!

jhegarty

Victor wrote:

Maybe theres a backlog and they can't hire more staff?

Their problem , not the drivers....

Victor wrote:

Maybe an individual garda waits until he completes a ticket book before processing them?

Their problem , not the drivers....

Victor wrote:

Maybe the address on the vehicle registration file was incomplete and it was slow in the post?

That would be the drivers problem , but I don't think thats happening in all these cases...

BrianD

So Chipboard, have you decided what you are going to do?

shltter

the problem i see with it is that they dont state where on the road you were
some rds have two or three different speed limits in different sections surely the ticket should say between junction x and junction y

BrianD

The ticket will state the road and the speed limit that is in force. This is the way it has been done for years. If you were to pursue this line arguably every ticket ever issued would be invalid. Given the Irish mentality of getting off on legalistic technicalities, I'm sure it has been tried before!

Chipboard

I am going to clear up a few things here and then never look at this thread again.

BrianD wrote:

I have read your post and I'm tired of reading them. I am tired of people who state "please read my post before replying"

Brian, the reason so many people say this to you, is because you put up highly disagreeable posts even when you agree with the core issue that the previous poster is commenting on. From reading your various posts I can see that you agree that I should not have to wait 5 weeks for a ticket. That is also my opinion. I dont have a problem with penalising speeding drivers; I hate to see people driving dangerously but dont try to tell me that you have never inadvertently broken a speed limit.

Secondly, Victor

Victor wrote:

Nope. The state doesn't make enough money from fines to cover the cost of implementing speed checks.

Even the Gardai dont have figures to accertain whether speedinge fines cover he cost of mounting speed checks. You would have to apportion costs of equipment, stations, uniforms, training, petrol, administration .... etc etc. Obviously its not possible to accurately apportion these costs (atleast until the Gardai purchase some very advanced MIS software (look it up under Information Technology) so dont just state that speeding tickets dont pay for themselves, in order to win an argument.

Victor wrote:

Maybe the address on the vehicle registration file was incomplete and it was slow in the post?

The address is correct to the letter. Its cant be a as a result of an individual Garda waiting until he has a full book of tickets as with non intercept speed checks, Gardai dont fill out books of tickets, it is a computerised system, which makes it even harder to believe that it would take five weeks for a ticket to arrive.

Victor

Chipboard wrote:

Even the Gardai dont have figures to accertain whether speedinge fines cover he cost of mounting speed checks.

Thats why the Comptroller and Auditor General did an audit to work these things out.

BrianD

Chipboard, was your original posting not about whether the Garda could have made a mistake about the speed limit at the point where he was able to ascertain your speed as being above the limit? Also that you should be pulled over and handed the ticket? The 5 week delay - making it diificult for you to recall who was driving your car - is periperal to the issue you raised.

BTW there is a bit of a typo in my text you quoted. I am not tired of reading your posts, I am tired of reading "please read my post" or you "must be working for them".

I am quite belligerent when it comes to these issues because Irish people can have a very twisted sense of logic and reasoning when it comes to escaping personal responsibilities. Someone else is always to blame or should be protecting them. Say you've got a speeding ticket and 9 out of 10 will tell how to "get out of it". Only one will say, pay up, take your punishment and learn from it.

Of course I have exceeded the speed limit and wouldn't have thought twice about it in the past. I was a person who could "safely speed" or so I thought. I found that driving in Australia for a year really modified my approach to driving and observing speed limits. Given the number of road deaths in this country, everyone can play a part by improving their driving and that includes obeying the speed limit. I don't believe that there are sufficient number stretches of road that need a speed limit review despite the hullabaloo about it. It's a smokescreen for poor driving skills and a very large red herring. Any upward reviews of speed limits will ultimately make very little difference in the time taken to complete a journey.

Chipboard

I was going to drop this but I saw something today that I just had to post up.

This is a photo I took today of a a pair of speed limit signs in the area I was caught in. I dont know if its where I was caught because the notice I received doesn't state the exact location.



Brian, to answer your question, if I was of the mind to waste a couple of grand I'd go to court, but I'm not. Even if I won, I would still have to pay my solicitors fees.

If the Gardai are ticketing people on this road, do they deserve the ticket. Don't waste too much time thinking about it - it doesn't matter, they will pay up and take their 2 points, because the system doesn't afford them any other option.

BrianD

Interesting photo. In this case, it might be worth your while going to court with this photo. Even if you were caught further down the road you could argue you were not aware of the change. If you were doing over 80Km/H (and I don't recall what speed you were nabbed at) you might have a spot of bother (I take it the road is a R road).

There is no excuse for bad positioning of signage. The signage on the N11 is appalling - especially on the famous Belfield stretch. Someboby else had signs mounted on a pole that would appear to conflict with each other (the school sign and the 100 km/h). It seems that one Dublin council has absolutlely no idea how to position signage at all. Is that a sign in front of the sign on the right??

You should go to your local Garda station with this photo and go to the local authority. I would.