Letter to the NRA!!

MT

I started a thread a while back about the state of traffic signs in Ireland. Can't remember who it was but someone mentioned doing something more than just complaining, and they're right. So I've written this letter and will post it to the NRA. But first any comments? Oh, and before anyone says it - yes, I'm never going to win the Turner prize...


Dear Sir,
Over the last decade much new signage has been erected on Ireland’s roads. The considerable increase in the number of signs used and their often improved design has been of extensive benefit to the traveller. This upgrade should be welcomed by all who care about the experience of driving on this island – tourist, trucker and commuter. Having stated this, there are inadequacies in the current approach to which attention should be drawn. These relate in particular to the condition and readability of modern road signs. Many are leaning to one side, have been knocked around or have had their aluminium plates badly bent out of shape.

Residing in Northern Ireland, yet travelling regularly in the Republic, I have been able to compare the signage systems on both sides of the border. One of several disparities I have noticed is the better condition of signs in the north as opposed to their more dilapidated equivalents in the south. Having investigated this matter I believe it exists for a number of reasons other than simply differing standards in maintenance. These are outlined below:

Aluminium plates. In the south the sheeting on a large number of signs is bent or distorted. In some cases this has made the information displayed ineligible. This deterioration rarely happens to anywhere near the same extent in Northern Ireland, except where a serious vehicle collision has occurred. Having questioned a number of northern sign makers on this issue I was informed that a different thickness/grade of aluminium plates was responsible. Signs in the south are constructed from less robust sheets and consequently suffer greater deterioration due to passing traffic.

Structures providing support. Again there is a difference between the two jurisdictions. Wherever possible in Northern Ireland signs are mounted on more substantial structures than steel poles. These include street-lights, gable walls etc. Furthermore, when nothing else can provide support at least two poles are used for displaying important signage – directional, warning and instructive. Obviously, this is imperative when using a system of circular poles and brackets: a single pole provides little resistance to stop a sign from swivelling to face the wrong direction. Together these methods ensure that signs are knocked over or around much less frequently than might otherwise be the case.

This approach compares favourably with that in the Republic. Here signs are placed almost without exception on nothing other than aluminium poles – sturdier street-lights nearby seemingly ignored as alternatives. Moreover, many important warning and speed limit signs have been erected on just one pole. Consequently, they too often face the wrong way having been struck by passing traffic.

To add to these problems many signs have been needlessly erected separately while in close proximity to each other. This contrasts with the approach up north of placing as many signs as possible together on the poles/structures used in the first place. This would clearly reduce initial costs of construction while diminishing visual clutter at the same time. By placing new signs on both existing poles and other alternatives the poles saved could be put to use by doubling the supports for warning signs etc. – solving at no extra expense the problem of rotation mentioned earlier.

Continuing this theme of signage flaws, comment should also be passed on night time visibility. Directional signs in the south would benefit greatly from the use of the reflective covering placed on their equivalents in Northern Ireland. This practice greatly aids the interpretation of the information displayed on motorway and primary route signs. I often find directions difficult to follow at night in the south as the signs are simply too dark to read.

The adoption of lights to illuminate signs on major routes should also be given serious consideration. Due to ever rising traffic levels it is increasingly necessary to drive for substantial periods at night with dipped head lights. This diminishes further the capacity of the motorist to read the information displayed on inadequately reflective signs. Lighting each individual sign is a common practice in other parts of the world and entirely eradicates this problem.

I firmly believe that if the ideas outlined above were adopted they would further augment the positive signage improvements previously enacted across the state. Though based on the simplest of logic they would help lift standards of signage in Ireland towards those of best international practice.

mobpd

Wow! sounds good to me. Also spotted a large number of directional signs that swivelled round in the last batch of gales - it's like wacky races if you ever have to rely on signs here to find your way to some place - either you come across some sign that swivelled to point the wrong way or of course the signs are just non-existant at those crucial T junctions - I always choose the wrong way!
Also maddening how they leave up signs for years that say eg "new layout ahead" - sure, there's one in Clondalkin that refers to a new traffic flow from 2001 - now, if people havent got the hang of it 4 years later !!
and all those signs put up by construction companies advertising themsleves during roadworks that never seem to be taken down.

Keep us updated if you get any response...

vinnyfitz

Suggestion: As a second line of attack, summarise it in one fifth of the same length and send it as a letter to the editor of your favourite national newspaper. You might well spark some debate.

MT

Hi, thanks for the positive comments.

and all those signs put up by construction companies advertising themsleves during roadworks that never seem to be taken down.

That's a good point mobpd. I think they really are getting away with what amounts to free advertising. Fair enough, they should be allowed to erect such signs while the project is under way and even for a number of months after completion, but years that's ridiculous. The government also does this with the NDP signs. Indeed, I'm surprised it hasn't raised heckles in the Dail given the fact that the signs amount to permanent buildboards around the country telling the voters what the current gov. has done for them... anyway, that's for another debate. From a signage point of view, they're just more road side clutter. I must check out the situation with regard to such signs in the UK. Up here they're usually taken down soon after the project has been completed. I'd surmise that the regulations are more stringent/stringently enforced.

I'll add that point to a list of bullet points I'm compiling to send as a follow up letter to this one. As a first attempt I thought I'd have more chance of an impact by sticking to a limited range of observations.

Suggestion: As a second line of attack, summarise it in one fifth of the same length and send it as a letter to the editor of your favourite national newspaper.

Good idea. I think that might be an interesting approach to take. However, feel free to take the points I've raised and have a go yourself. The more that raise the issue the greater the chance that someone in the sargasso sea of bureacracy might take notice.

jbkenn

and all those signs put up by construction companies advertising themsleves during roadworks that never seem to be taken down.

I could never understand that myself, I really dont care who built it, and, even if you are impressed by the quality of their workmanship, they are hardly likely to be interested,if you ring them up, "Hey, love the job you did on the M7, was wondering if you would be interested in quoting for the extension I am planning to build to my house".

jbkenn

BrianD

Overhead signage would also be very beneficial too!

Crossley

MT wrote:

The government also does this with the NDP signs.

I queried what the situation was with these hideous monstrosities with my local council last year and was told that they have to remain in position until the end of the NDP programme i.e. 2006.

Re signs in general, I agree with everything MT has highlighted but would also include the point that we badly need our roadsigns to be standardised to a European format. At present we have a mish mash of American and UK signage with many anomolies with those systems. The NRA seem to be making some sort of an effort as regards directional signs with colour coding of the backgrounds but even here we see motorway signs with green backgrounds etc.

highdef

Street signs in this country are also crap. Driving around Dublin city streets and looking for a street is a nightmare, if you don't know the area. There'll be a tiny, moss covered sign with tiny writing beside a window in a building somewhere near the corner. And that's if you are lucky enough to see the sign. How the hell is one supposed to get around? As you approach a junction, you're scanning away at the buildings on the streets to the left and right of you and if you can't see anything, you actually have to turn your head right round (as you continue driving!!) to see if the signs are on the far side of the road (again if you are lucky!). Why can't we do it like proper countries (Like the US or Canada and I'm sure numerous other countries)? As you approach a junction, there'll be a large prominent sign on the street you are driving on telling what street you are about to pass. Better still would be overhead signs at the centre of junctions but I'm sure people would moan that they destroy the streetscape or some crap like that. Or is it just one of those "Oirish" things we have that tourists love - not having a clue how to get around the city!!!

Alun

Crossley wrote:

Re signs in general, I agree with everything MT has highlighted but would also include the point that we badly need our roadsigns to be standardised to a European format. At present we have a mish mash of American and UK signage with many anomolies with those systems. The NRA seem to be making some sort of an effort as regards directional signs with colour coding of the backgrounds but even here we see motorway signs with green backgrounds etc.

Yes, what's with all these American style yellow diamonds? Also, my own particular bugbear is the non-standard No Entry sign with the crossed out arrow. Much easier to miss than the big red circle with the bar used elsewhere. It confused the hell out of me when I first moved here.

impr0v

MT wrote:

In some cases this has made the information displayed ineligible.

illegible?

MT

illegible?

Oops!

I queried what the situation was with these hideous monstrosities with my local council last year and was told that they have to remain in position until the end of the NDP programme i.e. 2006.

Crossley,

The problem I have with that approach is what if a 10 or even 15 year plan was put in place in the future? Would the accompanying ‘bill board’ signs remain up throughout these periods? It just seems to me rather unsightly government/EU advertising. Would I be too cynical in wondering if their removal will be delayed to coincide with the next general election? I still think they should be taken down after a period of 3 to 6 months from the projects completion. That would give ample time for all who use the road etc. to see what agencies had contributed.

…we badly need our roadsigns to be standardised to a European format. At present we have a mish mash of American and UK signage with many anomolies with those systems.

Personally, I would be against standardisation simply for the sake of it. Even if some signs in Ireland are peculiar, if they get the message across and drivers here have become accustomed to them then a change to Euro standards would cause confusion for no real benefit. I mean yellow diamond warning signs might not be found anywhere else in Europe but if they work, they work. Indeed, I believe that the warning signs used in Ireland are – with the exception of Europe – the most common across the globe.

Furthermore, if you’re looking for European standard signage just cross the border. UK signage does comply with EU standards which were imported wholesale by a government commission in the 60s. I think even the colour coded direction signs now used in Ireland too where copied from France. However, there’s no reason why an alternative system – even a combination of what’s available can’t work just as well. Despite this however, many of Ireland’s warning/instructive signs just aren’t consistent. So, in the face of the current incoherent system more Euro standards could be given consideration in some areas of signage.

Victor

MT wrote:

Oops!

Deny everything, claim the letter was typed by a sign-writer. *

* you wouldn't happen to be a sign-writer, would you?

MT

* you wouldn't happen to be a sign-writer, would you?

No. I haven’t any vested interests. Just an ordinary motorist, not looking for a place in the sign-writers hall of fame or anything.

My intention with this initial letter is to highlight the construction and materials used in Irish traffic signs. While I agree with comments on the design of the information displayed etc. I think it’s necessary to begin with the basics. If signs are not built to last but instead deteriorate beyond recognition or are knocked around the wrong way then it matters little what they display. The same goes for driving at night: if, through lack of reflectivity or lighting, a sign’s too dark to read then it might as well not be there.

In subsequent letters, and depending upon what response this generates, I’ll try to raise issues of design. Here again there are numerous flaws.

But certainly, there are other areas of placement/supports that I haven’t mentioned. As BrianD points out there could be much greater use of overhead signage. It’s very easy to miss a directional sign at the side of a carriageway – particularly a multi-laned one – in heavy traffic. Far better to have such signs erected on gantries above. My other bug bear is the positioning of many of the new speed limit signs on narrow rural roads far to close to the roadside. It’s only a matter of time before these are knocked over or around. Yet again, the problem of important signs erected on only one pole has been repeated almost everywhere.

mackerski

Plenty of good points have been raised, but here are a few additional thoughts:

Signing standards:

These are either flawed, non-binding or widely ignored. The UK has a comprehensive set of signage standards that are pretty well observed. These were derived in iterations based on experience of a number of generations of signing standards.

The current Irish signing model seems to have picked up on bits of the UK model, but lots of the more useful bits are either ignored or misapplied. These include:

* Main destination points: So the N3 from Dublin should be (and largely is) signed for Cavan on all main signage. It shouldn't occasionally substitute Navan, except as a local destination further down the sign. The intention of this system is that, if you don't remember numbers well, you can memorise one single waypoint and follow signs to it, even if you don't have enough local knowledge to realise that a sign for Navan or Virginia are equivalent. The UK system of key destinations is so well-observed that Michelin maps (possibly others) actually mark the key destinations specially.

* Always identifying the road you're about to join. Near the Blanchardstown Centre, there's a slip-road leading to the N3 for City-Centre and also leading to the M50. The sign is white, doesn't carry the label N3, but does carry the label M50 and doesn't put it in brackets.

* Watching your patching. The UK Guildford rules came up with a consistent standard for when and how to include a patch of different sign colour appropriate to a crossing road. These are applied somewhat randomly here. Examples...

* Clarity: Our signs often either pack too much info onto a sign or else provide far too little (M50, Southbound...). At the risk of being flamed, the bilingual obligation doesn't help here. It seems to be okay to drop the English versions of placenames in the Gaeltacht, even of distant, non-Gaeltacht destinations whose Irish names you mightn't know. Since it seems that there are rules being made to further deprecate the English-language names of Gaeltacht towns, perhaps it's time we considered carefully whether towns whose Irish names are retrofits rather than traditional might be more clearly signed in English only.

* Finishing what you started: If you start providing signs for a numbered route, provide them at every junction where there could be any doubt how to proceed. Provide the route number, the chosen waypoint name and use the correct colour and patching logic.

* Not erecting a sign if unnecessary, confusing or contributing to clutter. Some stretches of road in Fingal have small, square, plates fixed too high up a pole at intervals of a few hundred metres. They remind you, in small type, not to drink and drive. I assume you're supposed to pull in and park in the event that feel yourself to be the intended recipient of this message. Similarly, some Motorways in the Dublin area carry signs cancelling the urban truck parking prohibition (at a county-area boundary). Presumably the message is that you'll be OK to park once you leave the motorway. However, the signs are official urban spec (too small to read under motorway conditions) and only serve to distract drivers. In fact, I think they may be the reason the M50 is a 100-zone south of Scholarstown.

Dermot

MT

Good points Dermot.

* Clarity: Our signs often either pack too much info onto a sign or else provide far too little

This is a problem. Irish signs do tend to be very inconsistent in this respect. You either get a feast of famine. One problem, however, that all signs have in common relates to their bilingual character. This often results in a crowded layout simply because the signs just aren’t big enough. All directional signs should be increased in size to alleviate this problem.

The other fault found in all current bilingual signage is the font used for the anglicised place names. Upper case lettering is not as easy to read at speed as lower case. The vast majority of other countries have recognised this – Ireland and France being the exceptions that prove the rule. The strange thing is that the original justification for this policy no longer exists. Upper and lower case were necessary in the past to differentiate gaelic from anglicised. Now that italics are used for the former all information on signs could revert to the more readable lower case. A larger font size could be used for the ‘English’ spellings. Furthermore, in light of the plan to remove english spellings from the Gaeltachts why not give them prominence in the rest of the country – placing them above their Gaelic equivalents? Or would such a decision carry political baggage?!!

* Not erecting a sign if unnecessary, confusing or contributing to clutter.

Yes, the Republic’s roads are increasingly suffering from signage clutter. There seems to be a dichotomy between inadequate directional signage with an excess of warning and superfluous signs on the other hand. With warning signage, I feel you have to strike a balance. Not enough and you leave drivers at risk: too much and the impact is diminished. If you’re bombarded with too many yellow diamonds etc. along a stretch of road the average driver will just switch off. This problem is at its worst down south with the needless use of chevron signs on even the mildest bends on many roads. After a while it becomes impossible to ascertain whether you’re being warned of a truly hazardous bend or simply a gentle curve. The signs have lost their impact. I feel the UK strikes a much better balance. If the south isn’t careful it’ll end up like parts of Italy that have forests of warning signs along stretches telling you nothing of importance.

One thing the authorities are often poor at down there is taking down older signs that have been ‘replaced’. Surely when workmen erect a new sign they could remove what went before – not several years later if at all.

Tourist signs. New regulations are needed to control the placement of these. A forest of brown finger posts at every junction results in the crowding of important directional signage. Don’t those responsible for them realise that the driver can only take in so much? If I come across a dozen brown signs with differing typefaces – many advertising B&B’s and so and so’s pub – I just ignore them.

Where do you draw the line? If there are 15 B&B’s and 10 pubs down a road are they all allowed to put up signs at the nearest junction? In my view there should be a limit of two categories. The most important for national monuments, major historic sites etc. The lesser for important city/county features – big hotels, leisure areas and so on. Depending on its importance signs should only be displayed within a certain radius from the attraction. Outside of this catchment area, if it’s very significant, a sign could be placed at the nearest junction of a major route. There are just too many pubs, B&Bs and other minor enterprises to be included. Again, like warning signs, put up too many and all tourist signs become devalued. Finally, it goes without saying that finger posts should in effect be given the finger. All tourist signs should have at least two poles and a standardised font.

Don’t tourism chiefs realise that signage clutter is an eyesore that detracts from Ireland’s scenery? The very things supposed to aid the tourist just diminish the country’s natural beauty when stuck everywhere willy nilly.

Victor

MT wrote:

No. I haven’t any vested interests. Just an ordinary motorist, not looking for a place in the sign-writers hall of fame or anything.

It's OK, I was just doubly insulting you, not slandering.

MT

Victor wrote:

It's OK, I was ust doubly insulting you, not slandering.

Yeah, given the standard of traffic signs in Ireland calling someone a sign-writer would amount to an insult.

Alun

Here's an interesting site I found on this very subject.

http://peterjordan.castlebar.ie/roadsigns.html

Seems like MT isn't the only one writing to the NRA !

MT

http://peterjordan.castlebar.ie/roadsigns.html

I had a look through that site a few years back. He raises some good points - thought the photo journal really hit home. The point about a national embarrassment is certainly an issue. I mean, how many other countries in the rich world find the simple task of signposting directions and road hazards such a challenge. What must foreign investors think. Would you locate a high tech research facility in a town that can't even cope with the task of directing traffic through itself. Finger posts 'blown' in the wrong direction hardly inspire faith in Ireland's technological competence.

Silvera

I'd agree with most of your letter points above MT.

Road signage in the Republic is dire !

I drove over 4000k's last year around New Zealand, and I didn't have to stop once to ask for directions - the signage there is that good !
(Literally EVERY ROAD in NZ is signposted, and the signage nationwide is logically laid out with plenty of advance signage).

Try doing that in Ireland !!

The signage arounds towns in Ireland is bad enough, but try finding a particular country road in an area you don't know - impossible ! ........the only way is to call into the nearest house and ask for directions ?!!

The likely excuse in the past for the bad signage was 'lack of funds' - we can't claim that any more, Ireland now being the third richest country in the world !

Indeed, regarding funding, I wrote to the Minister for Environment & Local Government a few years ago, suggesting the introduction of cherished/private car reg plates, and I suggested that the money raised through selling such plates could be used to fund improved road signage !

MT

Alun wrote:

Also, my own particular bugbear is the non-standard No Entry sign with the crossed out arrow. Much easier to miss than the big red circle with the bar used elsewhere.

I think you make a good point there. The current sign simply lacks distinction. When there are a number of crossed out signs in close proximity - no parking, no right turn and so on - the current no entry sign is difficult to pick out. Particularly so when you only have time for a quick glance or if the sign's been slightly obscured from view. All important traffic signs should be easily distinguished from one another.

Furthermore, when an international standard is recognised by virtually every other nation why try to reinvent the wheel. At a stroke you're needlessly confusing international visitors while making life a bit more difficult for Irish drivers.

spacetweek

MT wrote:

http://peterjordan.castlebar.ie/roadsigns.html

I thought your man's photojournal was a bit hysterical at times - there were many signs which he described as bizarre but I could see nothing wrong with them e.g. "why is ballina written in brackets" - has he never seen brackets used on road signage before? It's a convention used worldwide, implying "indirectness". Plus he doesn't seem to understand the concept of the "control city" - in his case, Sligo. Under this system, the town at the end of the current road is used as a reference point towards which you drive, turning off or stopping at your destination at some point beforehand. Again, this idea is used worldwide.

However, he was of course correct about everything else. The main areas needing improvement are:

1. Cutting back plants and trees - Ireland's lush vegetation and narrow verges are a problem here.
2. Reminder signs - such as small signs at intervals telling you the name of the current route, signs listing upcoming towns and distances, and signs explaining the upcoming route structure e.g. N4 (N5) (N6).
3. Ensuring signs are up to date - the final sign he shows, obscured by foliage, dates from when the N5 ended at Castlebar. Old signage must not be allowed to remain in operation.
4. Consistency - If a sign says (N6) Westport, there shouldn't be sign 500m down the road saying (N6) Castlebar. Stick to the one control city.
5. Fingerposts are OK on a tiny local or regional road, but they're a joke on a National Route. These are particularly common in town centres - lack of space on the footpath should not be an excuse.
6. Removal of old-style pre-1980's signs - These are the famous black and white cast iron ones that still show miles and the old T and L route numberings. The fact that any of these at all are still around is frankly ludicrous.

I suspect that many local authorities around the country are slow to put up hundreds of new signs due to the massive number of road upgrades going ahead on national routes nationwide, since they'd have to take them all down again. This is a dodgy excuse at best. :mad: