Tracking and balancing?

Guy:Incognito

anyone have a rough idea how much it costs to have the tracking and balance done? In a quick fit or similar. Cheers.

bazz26

I recently got both done together for €40 but I don't know what Kwik-Fit change. Get the http://www.goldenpages.ie out and give them a call.

marls

Balancing is inexpensive - most places charge between 5 and 10 per wheel.

Tracking depends on the type of car/wheels. Some cars need a special machine to track them Eg: Alfa 156 but most do not.

Do some ringing around - they vary a lot.

Best quote I got the last time was from Advance pitstop.

Ratchet

got job done in advance pitstop and would highly recommend it

FAB24

I got my Alfa 156 Tracked today(...off Naas Road) for Euro60. Needed special camera setup. They all don't do it. Great Service.

lomb

FAB24 wrote:

I got my Alfa 156 Tracked today(...off Naas Road) for Euro60. Needed special camera setup. They all don't do it. Great Service.

i wouldnt let some monkey screw around with it for no reason. the only reason cars can go out of track is wear in rubber suspension parts. the type of metal they use in suspension parts just doesnt bend unless exposed to EXTREME abuse. i would personally leave tracking alone.

bazz26

I have found that tracking can be knocked out of alignment by potholes/poor roads, constant parking on footpaths or those hidious speed ramps.

I have it checked every 12 months and the suspension is fine. It can be only out be a milimeter or two but that is all it takes for the car to start pulling to one side or wear the tyres out unevenly.

highdef

What about rear wheel drive cars? Do they have to get all four wheels done?

lomb

bazz26 wrote:

I have found that tracking can be knocked out of alignment by potholes/poor roads, constant parking on footpaths or those hidious speed ramps.

I have it checked every 12 months and the suspension is fine. It can be only out be a milimeter or two but that is all it takes for the car to start pulling to one side or wear the tyres out unevenly.

suspension does not bend, if anything its rubber busings wearing. the cause of pulling left which i have experianced numerous times and sorted out numerous times on many cars is wonky tires. they actually warp physically.new tires have always solved my problems. i would never let some monkey screw around with my tracking. it is an urban myth that potholes can knock your tracking out but they could and do warp your tyres.

Our man in Havana

Got my tracking done on monday and cost €45. Took about 30 mins to do and was done using a computer. The results were impressive. Drving into potholes and speedhumps don't help at all.

DivX

ntl Technical wrote:

What about rear wheel drive cars? Do they have to get all four wheels done?

Not generally unless there is alot of wear in the bushings or you changed the suspension geometry through lowering the suspension.

Laser wheel tracking system is the more accurate way to go. You will find that the small garage owner typically uses the optical/mirror variety, and probably wouldn't be as good.

mike65

I got mine computer tracked yesterday (mercedes 190e) as I'd had a new track-rod installed and it cost all of €30 at a good tyre/wheel outfit (NOT a chain!) was pleasently suprised.

Mike.

stratos

I don't believe there is no need to get tracking checked periodicly ,or if you see tyre wear. The wheel alignment will change over time due to the forces of the toe out of the wheels. Some vehicles even mention it as service elements.

lomb

stratos wrote:

I don't believe there is no need to get tracking checked periodicly ,or if you see tyre wear. The wheel alignment will change over time due to the forces of the toe out of the wheels. Some vehicles even mention it as service elements.

on what basis does the toe out change? all i know is on 3 cars i/parents had all suffered at some point with pulling to the left. all were sorted with front tire replacement. if u mess with the tracking of course ur tyres will have odd wear patterns. then u go to have it retracked and so the cycle continues. it is a known urban myth that your tracking can go out if you hit a pothole, how?metal does not bend unless their is extreme abuse. bushings do wear but very slowly. if my tyres were uneven at 30000 miles on a new car that was factory aligined, i would replace the tyres and observe. 9 times out of 10 the problem will be corrected with new tyres. the structure genuinely does warp ive seen it many times. of course suspension work will need tracking im not denying that for sure.

stratos

When your car is at rest the front wheels should point inboard slightly.(not noticibly btw). The foward thrust of your car makes the wheels want to splay and they do slightly, so when moving the track corrects itself. This force will cause minute stretching of the track components over time.

lomb

stratos wrote:

When your car is at rest the front wheels should point inboard slightly.(not noticibly btw). The foward thrust of your car makes the wheels want to splay and they do slightly, so when moving the track corrects itself. This force will cause minute stretching of the track components over time.

i dont deny the forces but would say it would warp your tyres minutely over time. my father bought his corolla new in 1997 and towards the end of life of his front tyres in 99 they showed uneven wear. however on replacing the tyres the wear pattern was 100% and recently replaced this second set again and the wear was even. if i had tracked it back in 99 i would have screwed everything up. high tensile metal wont stretch, bushings do deform but modern rubbers are very durable. however the tyre carcass is metal wires and these do deform for sure.i see people tracking 2 and 3 year old cars and i personally think they are nuts. i can only persume each model is different and only a manufacturer would know where to set a track on a static bed. as you say the dynamic track varies anyway so the static track is not the correct one.

DivX

Wheel alignment should certainly be checked if they are signs of uneven wear or scuffing of the tyre face due. They can and do go out of alignment for a variety of reasons.

Generally wear on any of the suspension parts can affect the tracking, and there are lots of potential wearing parts such as tie rod ends, ball joints, kingpins, struts, rack & pinion or settlement of springs (would want to be old or drawing a trailer regularly.

It usually cheaper to correct small wear through an alignment than change the worn part which may still be with manufacturers tolerances and therefore presumably safe.

People hitting/jumping kerbs can also throw alignment out by moving suspension points (I’ve seen it happen).

lomb

DivX wrote:

Wheel alignment should certainly be checked if they are signs of uneven wear or scuffing of the tyre face due. They can and do go out of alignment for a variety of reasons.

Generally wear on any of the suspension parts can affect the tracking, and there are lots of potential wearing parts such as tie rod ends, ball joints, kingpins, struts, rack & pinion or settlement of springs (would want to be old or drawing a trailer regularly.

It usually cheaper to correct small wear through an alignment than change the worn part which may still be with manufacturers tolerances and therefore presumably safe.

People hitting/jumping kerbs can also throw alignment out by moving suspension points (I’ve seen it happen).

do u mean by physically bending metal. would want SERIOUS abuse imho

also u are assuming that the trackers can dynamically track a car on a static rig. i very much doubt that personally. and certainly not for 30-40 euro.

DivX

stratos wrote:

When your car is at rest the front wheels should point inboard slightly.(not noticibly btw). The foward thrust of your car makes the wheels want to splay and they do slightly, so when moving the track corrects itself. This force will cause minute stretching of the track components over time.

As far as i remember front wheel drive cars are toed-out while the front tyres of a rear wheel vehicle are toed-in (front of tyres are closer togeather than the back of the tyres.

You'll see saw tooth like wear on the face of the tyre if the tracking is out, if the saw tooth effect on the tread is faced in to the centre of the car there is too much toe-in, while facing out means too much toe-out...

lomb

DivX wrote:

As far as i remember front wheel drive cars are toed-out while the front tyres of a rear wheel vehicle are toed-in (front of tyres are closer togeather than the back of the tyres.

You'll see saw tooth like wear on the face of the tyre if the tracking is out, if the saw tooth effect on the tread is faced in to the centre of the car there is too much toe-in, while facing out means too much toe-out...

is it not possible the tyres and the tread surface wall is warped in relation to the beading seat area and it is not the tracking. after all if something goes it will take the path of least resistance ie the tyre.

DivX

do u mean by physically bending metal. would want SERIOUS abuse imho

No i agree i couldn't see the metal physically bending metal either if you look at some cars where the suspension parts are attached to the car body, the parts are sometimes mounted on elongated holes. This is to allow for adjustments to be made to the suspension before the bolts are tightened home fully.

also u are assuming that the trackers can dynamically track a car on a static rig. i very much doubt that personally. and certainly not for 30-40 euro.

No not assuming or suggesting it either. My local tyre specialists have a computerised system whereby they input the car year/make/model into their computer database and get the manufacturers recommended settings for camper/caster and toe-in/toe-out. Their laser units are then hung off the wheels and the suspension adjusted according to the tolerances set out in the program/manufacturer, all this for €30.

Ideally the car should be driven again and rechecked after the adjustments but i couldn't see this happening for €30...

lomb

DivX wrote:

No not assuming or suggesting it either. My local tyre specialists have a computerised system whereby they input the car year/make/model into their computer database and get the manufacturers recommended settings for camper/caster and toe-in/toe-out. Their laser units are then hung off the wheels and the suspension adjusted according to the tolerances set out in the program/manufacturer, all this for €30.

Ideally the car should be driven again and rechecked after the adjustments but i couldn't see this happening for €30...

that all sounds fair enough to me. i can see how tracking can be out, but not on the average 3 year old car. more like after 70000-80000 miles. its def the wearing busings in most cases that cause dodgy tracking. still my experiance on newer cars is warped tyres. thats my story and im sticking to it

DivX

lomb wrote:

is it not possible the tyres and the tread surface wall is warped in relation to the beading seat area and it is not the tracking. after all if something goes it will take the path of least resistance ie the tyre.

Yes i've seen this happen before, on a new car with only 10K miles on the clock.
All four tyres were deformed slightly giving a slight vibration in the steering.

The main dealer made out that it was apparently due to the tyre canvas getting damaged when the car was off loaded too fast at the port, all four tyres were replaced foc. (might have been a bad batch of tyres though?)

Oh and on that point if a garage was found not to have seated a tyre correctly and fitted it to the car, i'd never buy there again!

lomb

DivX wrote:

Yes i've seen this happen before, on a new car with only 10K miles on the clock.
All four tyres were deformed slightly giving a slight vibration in the steering.

The main dealer made out that it was apparently due to the tyre canvas getting damaged when the car was off loaded too fast at the port, all four tyres were replaced foc. (might have been a bad batch of tyres though?)

my experiance is this is not uncommon particulary on cars driven on rough roads. i also think this is very very difficult to measure. my mums golfs fronts originals michelin energy were causing the car to pull strongly left and created vibes and also created uneven tyre wear. this carried on for a while and one day i drove it and insisted there was something wrong. took it down to get them balanced. yer man showed me the tyre and no joking it when looking end on you could see the casing was warped. this was extreme warping but minor warps would be undetectable causing supposed out of track conditions. my opinion is to replace the tyres b4 tampering with factory settings that are carried out by people in white coats.

byte

About 2 weeks ago, I had 4 alloys put on my car (Corsa). The front two tyres are new Dunlop tyres. But, I've noticed that the car pulls to the left (it did slightly with the steel rims but more so with the alloys). More worrying, is that if I go above approx 60mph the steering starts to judder. Would this not be tracking issue? I need to get it sorted before it starts wearing my new tyres unevenly

lomb

byte wrote:

About 2 weeks ago, I had 4 alloys put on my car (Corsa). The front two tyres are new Dunlop tyres. But, I've noticed that the car pulls to the left (it did slightly with the steel rims but more so with the alloys). More worrying, is that if I go above approx 60mph the steering starts to judder. Would this not be tracking issue? I need to get it sorted before it starts wearing my new tyres unevenly

nah the judder is def tyre or wheel related. either your new alloys are warped or your tyres are. but tbh low profiles on alloys prob dont warp as easily as normal tyres on steel rims. it is not the tracking trust me. vibration can only be caused by a rotating part. oh and check tyre pressures. pulling to the left is often caused by deflated tyres and or warped wheels/tyres. i have experianced this on numerous cars and not once has it been tracking.

DivX

lomb wrote:

my opinion is to replace the tyres b4 tampering with factory settings that are carried out by people in white coats.

I wouldn't replace the tyres until i got them on the tyre balancing machine, you should be able to see any irregularities in the tyre while it is spinning on the machine (and buckled in the rim/alloy)

Of course there is always the possibility of the tyre only deforming when there's a load on it.

I see that in america they sometimes balance the wheels while they are still on the car, there's dynamic balancing for you, discs and all

lomb

DivX wrote:

I wouldn't replace the tyres until i got them on the tyre balancing machine, you should be able to see any irregularities in the tyre while it is spinning on the machine (and buckled in the rim/alloy)

Of course there is always the possibility of the tyre only deforming when there's a load on it.

I see that in america they sometimes balance the wheels while they are still on the car, there's dynamic balancing for you, discs and all

yeah but there could be an even buckling on the tyre surface all the way around that a rotating tyre on a machine wont show. how can i explain it - the tyre contact area is angled in relation to the vertical tyre all the way around by say 1.5 degrees due to warpage caused by the static track ie being parked up over time. no machine would pick this up.

DivX

byte wrote:

I've noticed that the car pulls to the left (it did slightly with the steel rims but more so with the alloys).

Check the tyre pressures are even all round, a half flat tyre will cause the car to pull to one side.

byte wrote:

More worrying, is that if I go above approx 60mph the steering starts to judder.

Sounds like the wheels are out of balance, get the front one balanced first.

Garages usually use stick on wheel weights on alloy wheels so as not to scrath the alloys, one of the weights may have fallen off. (maybe power-washed off?)

DivX

lomb wrote:

yeah but there could be an even buckling on the tyre surface all the way around that a rotating tyre on a machine wont show. how can i explain it - the tyre contact area is angled in relation to the vertical tyre all the way around by say 1.5 degrees due to warpage caused by the static track ie being parked up over time. no machine would pick this up.

Honestly i couldn't see an even buckling of a tyre all the way around, unless the there was a weird manufacturing defect or something.

If the car was parked up long enough with half soft tyres (couple of years maybe), a deformed part might form but it wouldn't be all the way around, just in the spot that was near the ground and then only the side walls, if it was there that long anyway, the tyre would probably be perished and need replacing.

byte

Hmm, the wheels were balanced when the tyres were replaced. I shall check the pressures though. They seem hard though, unless over inflation causes the same problems as under inflation?

BTW, they're not low profile tyres. Quite the opposite!

lomb

byte wrote:

Hmm, the wheels were balanced when the tyres were replaced. I shall check the pressures though. They seem hard though, unless over inflation causes the same problems as under inflation?

nah unless one tyre has more air in it than another. still the vibration would not be caused by under/over inflation. ur wheel or tyre is either warped or unbalanced for sure. are they branded alloys?

stratos

Yes front wheel drive cars need toeing out, the effect is the same though, the steering components become compressed. Also and I know someone else said this, general wear and tear will cause play in steering parts which is easier/cheaper to dial out with track adjustment, whilst keeping well within safety tolerances.

lomb

DivX wrote:

Honestly i couldn't see an even buckling of a tyre all the way around, unless the there was a weird manufacturing defect or something.

If the car was parked up long enough with half soft tyres (couple of years maybe), a deformed part might form but it wouldn't be all the way around, just in the spot that was near the ground and then only the side walls, if it was there that long anyway, the tyre would probably be perished and need replacing.

suppose thats true cant really say, all i know is went from seriously uneven wear on the first set of tyres to normal wear on the second. my experiance is not to play with the factory settings. this doesnt just apply to cars...........

also everytime i have noted front tyres get old the cars i drive start pulling left. on replacing tyres in 3 or 4 seperate instances this is cured. this cannot be a coincidence. i am def of the opinion to replace the tyres first. if this does not fix it then onto more drastic measures. once u start playing with ur suspension settings they will never be the same again.

DivX

byte wrote:

Hmm, the wheels were balanced when the tyres were replaced. I shall check the pressures though. They seem hard though, unless over inflation causes the same problems as under inflation?

BTW, they're not low profile tyres. Quite the opposite!

Check first that the correct pressure is in the tire, the car manual should give that to you or it could be on the door pillar.

Still think the wheels could be unbalanced. Were they balanced when the new tyres were fitted,(were they right at any stage after fitting the tyres?) a tyre wheel weight could easily have fall off also or not balanced correctly.

stratos

Just on wheel vibrations. there are 2 types of wheels, nut centered, and hub centred. if you don't use hub rings with hub centred wheels you will experience vibration at speed. no balancing will cure this.( mainly it applies to after market alloys).

byte

Hmm, I guess I'll have to return to the tyre centre. I'll check the pressures but I don't think they're the problem.

Stratos, funny you should mention the hub centreing. The alloys do have a small gap between the hub centre and the inner edge of the rims. Perhaps this has something to do with the judder, though it still wouldnt explain the drifting to the left. I might swap the rims around to see what happens?