Why are we not Schengen signatories?

murphaph

As in Ireland and the UK? Any reason why we've opted out?

Victor

Because the UK and Ireland are already a free travel area. Additionally, there might be the issue of national ID cards, which the two governments haven't yet come to grips with.

Capt'n Midnight

AFAIK the UK have some travel arrangements with the commonwealth etc. so they aren't in it.
The only country we share a land boarder with is the UK and the place where most travel to is there and you don't need a passport.

GerardKeating

murphaph wrote:

As in Ireland and the UK? Any reason why we've opted out?

'cause the UK won't sign, they want to retain passport controls with the mainland, poportadly to prevent illegal immegration.

If we signed up, we would have to give up the common travel area with the UK

murphaph

Interesting, so if we signed we'd see checks by HM Immigration all along the border!

It's a damn shame really, Schengen is so handy. Carrying your stupid passport around everywhere is a PITA.

maxheadroom

murphaph wrote:

Interesting, so if we signed we'd see checks by HM Immigration all along the border!

Not only that, but as a shengen country mainaining a land border witha a non-shengen country we'd be required to maintain immgiration / passport control checks at the border for entry into the shengen zone. Essentially we'd have to create a strip of no-man's-land across the entire border with the north.

robinph

GerardKeating wrote:

'cause the UK won't sign, they want to retain passport controls with the mainland, poportadly to prevent illegal immegration.

If we signed up, we would have to give up the common travel area with the UK

I think that signing up might also effect the rules for movement of animals as well. So there wouldn't be anything to stop rabies etc from making its way across.
Although being on Islands is admitedly a pretty good defence against that so far.

GerardKeating

murphaph wrote:

It's a damn shame really, Schengen is so handy. Carrying your stupid passport around everywhere is a PITA.

Most/All of the Schengen countries have national identity cards, so you just trade one for the other..


gerard

murphaph

GerardKeating wrote:

Most/All of the Schengen countries have national identity cards, so you just trade one for the other..

The ID cards I've seen are all credit card type though, much easier to carry around and in general much cheaper to replace should you lose it. Remember also that if if an Irish/British National emmigrates to Germany, the german auhorities will NOT issue you a german ID card and technically as a non-Schengen foreigner you MUST carry your passport AT ALL TIMES even if you live there! (contrary to popular belief a german national is NOT required to carry his ID card in germany at all times either btw.) Now Schengen starts to look more enticing...

Blackjack

Not sure that signing up to an International agreement for the convenience of not having to carry a passport while abroad is worthwhile.
What's the big deal about having to carry a passport as opposed to a Credit card sized ID card?.

I don't buy the issue about easier to replace if you lost it etc. Your passport is an important document, and you should treat it as such, ideally by looking after it and not losing it, or leaving it in your Jeans in the wash etc.

murphaph

Blackjack wrote:

Not sure that signing up to an International agreement for the convenience of not having to carry a passport while abroad is worthwhile.
What's the big deal about having to carry a passport as opposed to a Credit card sized ID card?.

I don't buy the issue about easier to replace if you lost it etc. Your passport is an important document, and you should treat it as such, ideally by looking after it and not losing it, or leaving it in your Jeans in the wash etc.

On the contrary, Schengen is all about convenience! Do you carry your passport with you every day? probably not, but by german law, a non-Schengen national in germany MUST carry their passports at ALL TIMES even if you live there! Now the odds of losing/damaging/wearing out said passport (which won't fit in your wallet like a standard Schengen ID card) increase dramatically.

Blackjack

I was referring more to the problem of Free Travel area between Ireland and the UK changing if we did sign. I do go to the states quite a bit, and when there, I have to carrry my passport at all times, and to be honest I don't find it an inconvenience.
I expect if I had to do this day in day out where I live I might find it an inconvenience, but I don't, so it does not bother me. Is Germany the only country where this is the case, or are there others as well?

murphaph

Hi Blackjack,
Sorry, I didn't realise you meant that if we were to sign and the UK not. I think the Ireland/UK free travel area is probably more important to us even today than Schengen (especially as we share a land border). I don't know about anywhere other than Germany but I assume they all act the same as they must have a common immigration policy to be Schengen members. It would be ok if the german authorities would issue non-Schengen nationals an ID card, but they won't! So we have to hope the UK signs Schengen, we'd have to then.

robinph

From here

The British authorities feel that, to join the Schengen zone, they would need to impose continental European style registration laws and make all people carry official identification at all times.

So things could change once they manage to force through the ID cards in the UK. I haven't heard if the replacement for Blunket is as up for the ID card things though.

mackerski

murphaph wrote:

(contrary to popular belief a german national is NOT required to carry his ID card in germany at all times either btw.)

That belief is very popular - Germans tend to believe it too. The rule, as I know it, is that everybody is obliged to have valid ID on his person. "Valid" here means an EU (or some other countries') ID card or a valid passport, possibly with Visa.

As has been noted, this applies in all sorts of places, even the "Land of the Free" (for foreigners, but clearly it takes some doing for them to know the difference). And in no country I'm aware of is it only non-Schengen citizens who are subject to this rule (I doubt the EU would allow it). In Germany, I've known many people to be asked for ID they didn't have on them. If you are a registered resident, they just radio in your name and date of birth and compare the details they get back with whatever you claimed. Not a big deal.

Of course, if you were differently coloured, or unconventional of appearance, you might find them more inclined to impose whatever small fine applies in this case. Since my passport has to last 10 years, it's a risk I always found worth taking.

Dermot

murphaph

Hi mackerski,
When I said;

murphaph wrote:

....by german law, a non-Schengen national in germany MUST carry their passports at ALL TIMES even if you live there!

I was referring in particular to the passport, naturally non-national Schengen citizens would be obliged to carry their own Schengen ID card. Sorry for any confusion.

sliabh

robinph wrote:

I haven't heard if the replacement for Blunket is as up for the ID card things though.

He is. It's full steam ahead there with the project. But it raises all sorts of interesting questions about what will happen here, and to Irish people that are in the UK.

robinph

sliabh wrote:

He is. It's full steam ahead there with the project. But it raises all sorts of interesting questions about what will happen here, and to Irish people that are in the UK.

Yeah, kind of defeats the point of it unless they then bring in somthing saying that all foreigners then need to carry id at all times too. Which maybe any French and Germans visiting the UK currently do have to anyway, although I'm sure none of them do.
But Irish would certainly not have to under the current rules seeing as you can freely travel between the contries with no proper id, on the ferries at least.