Getting engaged whilst getting a divorce

Dr Spock

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Hi I am wondering are there any of you out there contemplating your second marriage?? I have been with my partner for three years and they have been separated for five years. They are going through the process of a divorce. My partner wants us to get engaged and whilst I am thrilled I was wondering has anyone else shared this experience?

Beruthiel

Dr Spock wrote:

undefinedundefinedThey are going through the process of a divorce

me too
I have been with someone else for over 5 years now, and wouldn't even contemplate getting married again!
once bitten, twice shy is me
fair play to your soon to be mrs for giving it another go!

BEAT

Considering the crap divorce laws there I wouldnt think twice about it, anywhere else your partner would have been divorced by now and free to get married. Get engaged, be happy and goodluck!

Dr Spock

Thanks Beat. I think a lot of the family laws in this country are crap. What is it about Ireland that it still wants to be oppressed and miserable. Isn;t it time the laws started to reflect society's values??!!!

MojoMaker

Why did they wait the extra year to start divorce proceedings? Did one or other of them not 100% want it? Any children from her first marriage btw? Makes it a hell of a lot more straightforward if there isn't. Also your future wife will lose all entitlements (quite rightly) to anything from her first husband once she remarries.

What does she feel about the church angle on all this?

Dr Spock

Well Mojo my partner is male ( I'm female!!!!) As reagarding the church angle I am not sure what you mean. IS it the churchs view on divorce or the fact that you can't remarry in a church? Personally I do not invest a lot in the church or its views.

MojoMaker

I have some experience in this area. For some people (mainly females) the bit about never being able to be married in the eyes of the church holds some significant weight. I've seen it become an issue years later, although thankfully it is on the decline. I was curious, for some people the idea of having to forego the "big day" all dressed in white, flowers at the church, blessing of the rings etc etc can be quite depressing once it sinks in. However like I said thankfully this is on the wane, although less so outside of Dublin where it would still be important to some families that the local Parish Priest was 100% behind each and every wedding.

I agree, the church laws have to change pronto.

nesf

MojoMaker wrote:

I have some experience in this area. For some people (mainly females) the bit about never being able to be married in the eyes of the church holds some significant weight. I've seen it become an issue years later, although thankfully it is on the decline. I was curious, for some people the idea of having to forego the "big day" all dressed in white, flowers at the church, blessing of the rings etc etc can be quite depressing once it sinks in. However like I said thankfully this is on the wane, although less so outside of Dublin where it would still be important to some families that the local Parish Priest was 100% behind each and every wedding.

I agree, the church laws have to change pronto.

I would agree that things are a fair bit more backward in the country at times, but in alot of areas it has caught up with the cities. For instance, being a single parent isn't even close as bad as it was 20 years ago, the same with the idea of divorce and being seperated. It isn't the big family secret bull**** that it was not that long ago. But there is still alot wrong in the country, thus why I moved to the city.

BEAT

I myself wouldnt worry about getting married in the church,
when I was younger it was definitley what I wanted...but now as an adult I have a different picture in my mind.
For me I would want to be in the woods surrounded by trees near a creek so you could hear the running water. What better decoration that what nature has to offer...set up some chairs for the guests a few flower stands and you are ready to go
What is more, nature is god's most perfect creation so it is just about better then being indoors in a quiet church...and seemingly closer to God

Victor

Less with the off-topic church bashing. This thread isn't going to change the church's position, so just don't bring it up, take it to Humanities.

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Spock, it's up to you. I imagine you want a number of things:

(a) to get on with your life

(b) you don't want your new relationship to depend on a "successful" divorce, in this way an engagement makes sense now

(c) that said, an "unsuccessful" (disputed / delated / drawn out / second thoughts) divorce makes an engagement potentially painful. If you get engaged now, but you want to draw out the divorce for a particular reason, say, you want a better deal, then you risk ending up in the position where your new partner resents you for holding out for that better deal.

This is not something you should take lightly and you should take further advice on it (solicitor, counsellor, family ...). Ultimately, you must live with the decision you make, don't let others make your decision.

The Corinthian

On the topic of the Roman Catholic Church, I would suggest people get over it. The Roman Catholic Church (like pretty much all established religions) is not a democracy. So, if you want to have a religious service for your second marriage, take it up with God or change religion and stop whining about it to us.

As of the barriers to divorce, they are there for a reason. The greater the ease in attaining a divorce, the greater the number of divorces. As such, not making it that easy is a good way of discouraging people from rushing into marriages that they know they can rush out of again if they’re not happy.

pickarooney

But doesn't everyone get married in the belief that it will last forever, thinking divorce laws and pre-nuptials don't apply to them?
Like a criminal assumes he won't get caught, so harsher sentencing laws don't prey on his mind.

Not that I want to draw any parallels there.

The Corinthian

pickarooney wrote:

But doesn't everyone get married in the belief that it will last forever, thinking divorce laws and pre-nuptials don't apply to them?

Everyone gets married in the belief that it almost certainly will last forever, thinking divorce laws and pre-nuptials almost certainly don't apply to them.

Even an ‘almost certainty’ will make people think twice (with the possible exception of complete idiots).

Dr Spock

The Corinthian wrote:

On the topic of the Roman Catholic Church, I would suggest people get over it. The Roman Catholic Church (like pretty much all established religions) is not a democracy. So, if you want to have a religious service for your second marriage, take it up with God or change religion and stop whining about it to us.

As of the barriers to divorce, they are there for a reason. The greater the ease in attaining a divorce, the greater the number of divorces. As such, not making it that easy is a good way of discouraging people from rushing into marriages that they know they can rush out of again if they’re not happy.

I was not aware that anyone was whining on this thread! I have no nterest in a church service for any marriage. Regarding divorce ...your views are quite simplistic and condescending...easy divorces means more divorces???? Nonsense. The truth is the people who obtain divorces do so because their marriage has broken down ..not simply because someone is unhappy!When divorce was not available in this country people simply separated....the lack of divorce did not hold marriages together and likewise the availability of divorce does not mean we are lemmings who rush forth for a divorce simple because we can!
Come on none of us are that thick!!!

The Corinthian

Dr Spock wrote:

Regarding divorce ...your views are quite simplistic and condescending...easy divorces means more divorces???? Nonsense.

Except that it’s exactly what happens. For example, in countries that introduced no-fault divorce (making already existing divorce easier to attain), most saw marked increases in the divorce rate, in some cases up to somewhere between 15 and 25 percent, in the same period. In Australia, for example, the Family Law Act of 1975, which introduced no-fault divorce, saw an effective doubling in the divorce rate (after the initial backlog was dealt with).

The truth is the people who obtain divorces do so because their marriage has broken down ..not simply because someone is unhappy!

Now who’s being quite simplistic and condescending? There are a myriad of reasons why any relationship, marriage or otherwise, breaks down. Don’t confuse the end result for the reasons.

When divorce was not available in this country people simply separated....the lack of divorce did not hold marriages together and likewise the availability of divorce does not mean we are lemmings who rush forth for a divorce simple because we can!

Yet the figures repeatedly disagree with you. People will indeed take the road of least resistance and if it is easier to divorce or separate or divorce then they have less of an incentive to stay together.

Come on none of us are that thick!!!

Some are... believe me, some are...

Dr Spock

Thanks for the links Corinthian I will check them out! Your name suggests a religious interest or am I being simplistic?!

I think that statistics are interesting but they can be interpreted in many different ways depending on the argument one wants to present. The truth is the choice to remain in or leave any relationship is a personal choice. No one has the right to force any person to stay in a situation they find that is damaging to them emotionally, spiritually or physically. I am conscious of the pain that divorce brings to all involved and yet pain is part of the process of any separation. Making the separation process more difficult legally or otherwise it only adding further pain to what already is a very painful process.
There are those who believe that divorce should not be allowed ..that people be forced to remain married. I hope and pray that we are all a long way out of the darkness that destroyed so many peoples lives in this country. Yes marriage should be for life if thats the vows you make. But no one knows only the couple involved what the story of their marriage and decision to separate is. Few people leave marriages for fickle reasons so anything that makes the process easier I am all for it. There is enought misery in the world without adding to it!!

The Corinthian

Dr Spock wrote:

Thanks for the links Corinthian I will check them out! Your name suggests a religious interest or am I being simplistic?!

Optimistically simplistic, I suspect.

I think that statistics are interesting but they can be interpreted in many different ways depending on the argument one wants to present.

While statistics are often open to wide interpretation, it’s very difficult to ignore a sustained increase in marital break-up in countries that have liberalized divorce or separation law. I’m not making a moral judgment and have at no stage said that either divorce or separation are detrimental (that’s frankly another argument), but on the face of the evidence I’ve presented there would appear to be such a correlation. You’ve refuted this to date with no evidence, statistical or otherwise, and an anecdotal fuzzy feeling is hardly a rebuttal.

The truth is the choice to remain in or leave any relationship is a personal choice.

Again, I’ve not denied this or even made a moral judgment on it. I have simply pointed out that our choices are often subtly influenced by indirect factors.

Making the separation process more difficult legally or otherwise it only adding further pain to what already is a very painful process.

No doubt on an individual basis, but if one accepts that liberalization of divorce encourages marital breakup then one must weigh up the pain of individual cases against the effects of such an increase to Society. This would be the argument against such liberalization, which is not really pertinent to this discussion.

In the end, Society is full of restrictions that are ultimately for the greater good, after all.

But no one knows only the couple involved what the story of their marriage and decision to separate is. Few people leave marriages for fickle reasons so anything that makes the process easier I am all for it. There is enought misery in the world without adding to it!!

Of course, feckless behavior can also contribute, directly or even indirectly, to misery in the World, so being in favour of it might be a little irresponsible.

Victor

Dr Spock, no need to be defensive. We’re here to discuss points, not win.

pickarooney wrote:

Like a criminal assumes he won't get caught, so harsher sentencing laws don't prey on his mind.

However, it discourages opportunistic as opposed to systematic(?) criminals form engaging in such behaviour.

Skipping back for a moment.

As reagarding the church angle I am not sure what you mean. IS it the churchs view on divorce or the fact that you can't remarry in a church?

The Roman Catholic Church does not allow remarriage while your (ex-) husband / wife is still alive. I don't know the exact line, but the church is strongly against divorce, but is more strongly against the re-marriage. You might be able to get an annulment (there are both civil and church annulments), but the criteria are rather strict.

Other religions have different criteria.

---

I imagine you will find few who would condemn someone to live with an abusive partner (I can only presume this is not your case and I imagine most divorces are down to the couple just not getting on for other reasons), but that situation isn't solved solely by a divorce.

Dr Spock

Corinthian - "anecdotal fuzzy feeling" as opposed to fuzzy logic supported by a weak scaffolding !!! LOL your posts are certainly entertaining!! Thanks.

Victor thanks for your posts. I believe the church don't allow remarriage except if the marriage is annulled. However I do believe that a registrar will come to any location deemed dignified for the occasion to marry a couple.

I have not been to a wedding where it was a couple’s second marriage so if any of you have what setting did they use?

The Corinthian

Dr Spock wrote:

Corinthian - "anecdotal fuzzy feeling" as opposed to fuzzy logic supported by a weak scaffolding !!! LOL your posts are certainly entertaining!! Thanks.

I'm heartened that my giving you opportunity to speak in clichés entertains you. It remains, however, that while I may have presented statistics here, you have presented no more than your opinion as evidence to your arguments.

Nonetheless, if you do choose to marry again I hope it works out for you. Given this, I would be a little more cold-blooded and empirical this time around about your choice, if I were you.

Dr Spock

Nonetheless, if you do choose to marry again I hope it works out for you. ]

Thank you for your kind wishes. However if we get married this will be my first marriage ( I thread carefully but warmly when it comes to committments) but my partners second.

I wish you the best of luck should you ever venture into the domains of the heart.

MojoMaker

Did you even read the opening post Corinthian?

The Corinthian

MojoMaker wrote:

Did you even read the opening post Corinthian?

Sure I did. And I slightly misread it too, it would seem. Not that the original post was terribly pertinent to the rest of the thread, in the end, however.

Dr Spock

The original post is always pertinent as that is what people post responses too! Whilst you went way off beam because of lack of clarity or misreading I have found others posts from those who took the time to read the original post correctly ,helpful, informative, and relevant .

Beruthiel

back on topic please!
B

The Corinthian

Dr Spock wrote:

The original post is always pertinent as that is what people post responses too! Whilst you went way off beam because of lack of clarity or misreading I have found others posts from those who took the time to read the original post correctly ,helpful, informative, and relevant .

I gave a general commentary on divorce which was not in itself particularly off topic, although, as a result of you insistence disagreement, continued discussion on it was simply because your situation was not pertinent to it.

If you consider what I said irrelevant to your situation then ignore it by all means, but don’t entertain the discussion by trying to disprove it and on failing to do so then cry ‘off topic’.

Nevyn

Dr Spock wrote:

However I do believe that a registrar will come to any location deemed dignified for the occasion to marry a couple.

No, there is a special license that has to be applied for to allow for civil ceremonies to take place out side the registrar’s office. This venue must comply with a long list of requirements from health and safety to seemingly fitting for the occasion. So no remote mountain tops ect

And you will in the majority of cases NOT find a parish of what ever denomination offering the church up for renting out for such use.
Hotels that cater weddings are starting to see this as a trend and some are starting to have an option to have the civil ceremony in the function room
for a pretty fee. We have yet to reach the stage of 'wedding centres' that do it all like in the usa.

Dr Spock wrote:

I have not been to a wedding where it was a couple’s second marriage so if any of you have what setting did they use?

Not surprising as often if it is the second wedding of either party it is usually a low key affair not wanting to upset parts of the couples family or the family and the ex spouse. We don’t have the same tradition of having your new partners children from the previous marriage attending the wedding and the elder members of the family often refuse to acknowledge the new marriage never mind sending a second wedding gift, or only attending to upset people.

Plus there is often not a lot of money to be spent on a second wedding after
the sorting out of the divorced persons assests.

The registars office in Dublin is not as bleak or gloomy as people think.
They are pretty flexible http://www.oasis.gov.ie/relationships/marriage/civil_ceremony.html