Dublin Bus - Bus Tickets

zoro

Something that's been bothering me for quite a while now ...

If a company in Ireland started giving customers change in small pieces of paper that wasn't legal tender, would there be legal worries for said company?

If so, why is it legal for Dublin Bus not to accept their own form of change as tender when using their service?

If not, this is a kinda pointless thread

kenmc

i've wondered about that too... it's a sure fire way of them making money, cos who's gonna spend a 1.45 return to go into oconnell street to get 5 cent or whatever change was left from a previous journey.
Cept I used collect them all and give them to me bro so when he was in and about college he could go and get them and not let the thieving ba$tards away with it.
But at the least they should accept their own ticket things back in as payment - how the hell is it any different than a credit note from a shop? I mean you don't have to go to head office of Roches to use a credit note....
good topic - lets see what happens - maybe we can get some politician on to this one (ha!)

Gilgamesh

I kinda agree with the whole thing, actually started a huge row with a Bus Driver because of this, because I only had a teener on me otherwise, and wasn't willing to give it to him so I get a 'IOU' paper from him, went on for five minutes and eventually he let me Drive for free.
I personally think they are told to keep their heads down on this matter, so that no one gets answers that could make the Bus Service Stick out and make people start asking questions.
Dont' know how they do it, even the Dart gives you change.
Never seen another country manage their bus service like this.
Total ripoff, no wonder so many people still drive cars and block off roads, because they don't want to at 'a minimum of 1.65 EUR' from Town center to Blanchardstown.


Also I would like to add, that I would like to see where the money from the Bus service actually goes to?
I have never been in a Bus what has been AOK.
One time when I had to stand in the bus, the bus braked hard, I grabbed for the metal Pole, and had the whole f***ing pole in my hand, I questioed the Bus driver about this, but he just kept quiet, and just kind of said 'good grief, you were lucky' felt like battering him with the pole I just obtained.
Also seen tons of buses where the benches were broken.
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

zoro

The reason I asked, is that if I have a 2e coin and nothing else, can I DEMAND legal tender from the driver from the 1.30e fare?

Don't they have an obligation to provide the customer with change?

Obviously, I know that they no longer have those change machines - but I feel it's both unfair and illegal to do what they're doing at the moment without accepting their own change-slip things as a fare.

Gilgamesh

totally agree, but have no time to consult a lawyer in this matter.
if there are any hre, Would be greatful for an answer aswell

Andrew Duffy

A trader is under no obligation whatsoever to give you change, unfortunately.

zoro

Andrew Duffy wrote:

A trader is under no obligation whatsoever to give you change, unfortunately.

I was afraid of that - they just do it to prove that they care about customers or whatever. *sigh*

Do you know about the legal tender/crappy change slip?

kenmc

Andrew Duffy wrote:

A trader is under no obligation whatsoever to give you change, unfortunately.

So what *are* they obliged to give you?? If I buy something for 20 euro and hand over a 50, are they legally entitled to keep the 30?? surely not.

Chalk

unfortunate situation happened to 2 of my mates recently.
only had a 2eu coin between them for the bus.
one went first and said "2 nineties please"
driver gave him one 90c ticket and a 1.10 receipt.

the 2 just walked on without checking the tickets.
next thing the driver is out of his box and shouting about not payinf etc.

mates explined what happened
driver accuesed them of trying to evade the fare.
mates had no money except the 1.10.
eventually the driver gave up and let him go for free.

anyway its things like that piss me off.

that and drunk bus drivers / smoking bus drivers / drivers who wont let you off

ehh, dublin bus in general

zoro

eventually the driver gave up and let him go for free.

But should the driver accept the change slips?!

daymobrew

The drivers have NO access to the cash. These machines were brought in to protect the drivers from numerous attacks for the cash. It probably has an additional benefit of reducing any chance of driver's pocketing the cash (I don't if this was every a problem but not it's not even possible).

Dublin Bus are not permitted to keep the refund money for themselves - and they admit that have a nice amount.
In Trinity College there is a box to put refund receipts in. The tickets are cashed and the money goes to charity.
Dublin Bus would rather people used prepaid tickets, even though *they* removed the 10 journey tickets (I'm still waiting for a reply from them on that topic - letter posted 2002). The Travel 90 tickets are slightly cheaper than full fare though they are only useful for those travelling more than 9 (or is it 11) stages.

Yes, it's inconvenient, but you can thank the skangers for this.

zoro

daymobrew wrote:

The drivers have NO access to the cash. These machines were brought in to protect the drivers from numerous attacks for the cash.

I know this - It's a shame that it was needed, but it's understandable.

In Trinity College there is a box to put refund receipts in. The tickets are cashed and the money goes to charity.

There's also one 2 floors below me here in DCU Library.

My question is that if they give these slips as change, are they legally obliged to accept them as tender? Are there any lawyers on boards that can help with this? It's really annoying me when I don't have the exact correct change

Gilgamesh

Andrew Duffy wrote:

A trader is under no obligation whatsoever to give you change, unfortunately.

sorry for the question, but do you have any links to prove this statement?
it would be the first timeI woudl have heard of this.

Andrew Duffy

It's a basic principle of legal tender - if you are indebted to somebody, you must provide legal tender to the value of the debt. Your debtor offering change is merely a courtesy. In the case of the bus ride, you haven't actually incurred the debt until the bus starts moving, so the driver, acting on behalf of the company, is entitled to refuse to do business with you, but if he accepts your money he must allow you to travel. Again, the change ticket is a courtesy.

This nice textbook from 1898 describes the basics of money law very well:

http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/socl/economics/EverybodysGuidetoMoneyMatters/chap1.html

Don't worry about the age of the material - a hundred years wouldn't be that old for a legal book.

A.S.H.

So does that mean if I go to the shop and buy a pack of chewing gum and give the guy a tenner he can go ta very much and serve the next customer leaving me with no change?

seamus

ash wrote:

So does that mean if I go to the shop and buy a pack of chewing gum and give the guy a tenner he can go ta very much and serve the next customer leaving me with no change?

Yes, technically.
But more correctly no. He would be breaking the law if he charged you a price above what is marked on the shelf. However, he can just refuse to sell the gum to you until you provide the exact amount. Retailers don't do this obviously because having change means people canbuy something once they have any amount on them.

What Dublin Bus are doing is not illegal. They are under no obligation to provide you with change, but they do provide you with a means to claim back your change. That is, by getting on a bus and not providing exact change, you are entering into an agreement that your excess is redeemable upon presentation of a receipt. If you don't agree with that situation, you pay exact fare or don't get on the bus.

John R

What a truly pathetic moan.
There is a very good reason for no change being given on city buses; the drivers were being regularly attacked by skangers and junkies for the cash.
Accepting these tickets for travel would be an unbelieveably stupid idea, enough time is wasted already at stops waiting for idiots to root around for money, you want another delay while they hand over half a dozen tickets and a handfull of coppers which the driver then has to count out?

All the money accounted as change goes into a seperate account that DB do not touch except for paying out change.

In any other city that I know uses exact fare only there is no facility to get change at all. No exact fare = tough luck.

There is no time limit for cashing in the change tickets, although the ink tends to fade after 3 or 4 years. Put them in a box and change them once a year or whenever there is enough to be worthwhile.

If getting change tickets bothers you so much then use pre-paid tickets. The 2 journey tickets did not increase along with the cash fares so they are now cheaper. there is a whole range of other tickets that would be cheaper for most people to use than cash fares.

daymobrew wrote:

Dublin Bus would rather people used prepaid tickets, even though *they* removed the 10 journey tickets (I'm still waiting for a reply from them on that topic - letter posted 2002). The Travel 90 tickets are slightly cheaper than full fare though they are only useful for those travelling more than 9 (or is it 11) stages.

Yes, it's inconvenient, but you can thank the skangers for this.

You can thank the skangers for the 10journey tickets being removed, there was a high occurrence of tickets being damaged on purpose for fare evasion.

John R

Gilgamesh wrote:

I kinda agree with the whole thing, actually started a huge row with a Bus Driver because of this, because I only had a teener on me otherwise, and wasn't willing to give it to him so I get a 'IOU' paper from him, went on for five minutes and eventually he let me Drive for free.
I personally think they are told to keep their heads down on this matter, so that no one gets answers that could make the Bus Service Stick out and make people start asking questions.

Aren't you a hero. How many other people on that bus or waiting further up the road for it did you inconvenience because of your selfish attitude? TBH If I had been on the bus I would probably have kicked you off myself.