Advice please! Law/Legal Studies and Business Studies

the smiley one

hey, I am currently in 6th year and getting close to filling out the CAO form (got a date for it today - ahhhh!), anyway, I'm looking for advice on the law course in UCD and also the business studies and legal studies course there.
What are the advantages of doing one over the other; is there a significant amount of econmics in it; is there an optional language course you can take; just general info of the satisfaction of the courses that I can't get from the propoganda filled prospectus (I'm not just singleing out UCD - EVERYONE'S doing it!!!!)

Also, and I'm going to try and broach the subject with care.......erm..... what's the benefits of doing a legal course in UCD over those in Trinity? why should I pick one over the other - an objective a view as possible, please?!

(I have also started a similar thread on the trinity forum asking about law and german which I'm also really interested in; does any one have any ideas as to which course; law&german, legal studies and business studies, pure law; would be better and why (i.e. for what type of person etc.)

So any info or advice would be much appreciated....thankin' y'all for your time!

evein

Hi.
I have just graduated from Commerce in UCD. B and L is an excellent course. You basically do half a Commerce degree and half a law degree. So it's good if you are not sure what to do. I think you have lots of scope to pick different subjects in third and fourth year also (you'd have to check it out though)
As for question in relation to TCD or UCD. The UCD quinn school of business has lots of technolgy in it. Everyone has a laptop (which you have to pay for). And this is good preparation for 'going out into the workforce'!! Also your classes could be small enough in UCD. Most (business) classes only have 50 people in it. I took one course that only had seven people in it. So I even had a few lectures who knew my name. It is also a great way to get to know people.
I sound like I am trying to sell the course. Well I am cos I did it and it was great fun and you have GREAT job prospects after. Good luck anyway.

evein

Remember you can change your CAO choices after you hand them in. Well that was the way when I did my leaving in 2000. You could change them up until around May. (Check it out for yourself though)

uberwolf

this horizons thing being rolled out makes UCD more attractive as well. Some, don't be misled - it won't be too extensive, flexibility so that you can pick from any course in UCD to compliment that which you have to do.

www.ucd.ie/horizons

Sangre

I would have posted in Trinity but they didnt *get* my post modern self-depreciating humour.
Business and Legal is a well liked course which seems friendly enough, the law they do is enough for the professional exams but not much else. Don't know about the business side but it takes up most of their course hours wise afaik but not content wise. I believe they have 2/3 subjects in law for 4 years. Don't do it if you don't like business/accounting/economics. Also since loads of people have a chip on their shoulders about rich/d4 people, I suggest if you do stay away, I'd say at least 90% of this course is the private school type.
Now on to pure law, I'm in 2nd year law atm (BCL). It is a 3 year course (minimum) with 5 subjects a year. In first year they are all mandotary, in 2nd/3rd two are and you pick the rest. All your professional exams are covered by the mandatory subjects except Company law which 95% of people do in 2nd year anyway.
We have our own faculty in Roebuck Castle a bit of walk from the centre of campus, which means most people hang around together and since the class is about 120 including Law & French people there is generally a good atmosphere and people mostly know everyone else. There is also the convience of having all the lectures in the one place. There is an off campus Spar 2 minutes away which is good for food and there is a small kind of cafe in Roebuck which is great for hanging out, the common room is also good. A big downside about Roebuck is that there are no lockers for books etc., so you have to go all the way to the Arts blocks for them.

There is quite a large selection of optional classes, from media law to labour law to international business, it goes on. Sizes can vary from 100-10, usually about 20/30. List of classes are online, there is really something for everybody.
In 3rd year you can apply for international (canada, america, australia) or european (loads of places) to study law for a year there, it is an extra year to the course and meant to be a great experience if you can get it. Have applied to Chicago myself this year (put places in order of preference).

Basically I really enjoy my course, great friends, great atmosphere and great subject. 1st year subjects were better imo, the 'glamour' subjects of Tort, criminal, contract, constitutional and legal systems (unless you do french law). There is also the added bonus that even if you do not wish to pursue law professionally it is a really practical degree to have, highly recommended over something like Arts if you don't know what you want to do.

There are a few differences with Trinity law but not much. Our degree is 3 years with 5 subjects a year, they do 4 years with 4 subjects a year. Same hours per week for each subject. I believe they do one/two subjects over two years so while they might go more in depth (I can only assume) they don't cover as many subjects or the same. Trinity lecturers always are more likely to have take a socrates approach to lecturing. Since a degree can be only the start of a legal career educational wise 4 years can be a bit much for some. Trinity also does not have its own separate faculty so I don't believe they are as close. Since the points are a lot higher in Trinity there is a lot more study-study people who are going at it from the word go, which is not necessary because law is a very, very easy subject to pass. They seem to put a lot more pressure on themselves to do well. There is also a lot of people from the North in the year aswell as a lot of north dubliners, while ucd is more south dublin/non-dublin (this isnt really a pro/con but it can make it easier to make permanet friends depending on where you're from).

Think that is all for now, ask if you have any more questions.

bunnicans

hey,i'm currently in 2nd year B+L. got to admit i love the course. only about 140 people in the year,classes are small and the atmosphere is brilliant. i think i read in another post that it is full of d4 types. this may be true to an extent but there are plenty of "northsiders" and country people!plus the d4 crowd are lovely people!
i was also considering doing a pure law degree but opted against it as i feel the broad scope that B+L offers would be of great benefit. i intend on going to on to become a solicitor and i find what i am learning on the business side will be an advantage.
if your worried about economics dont be!you will do it in first and second year but the exams arent hard if you keep up with work and do a bit of study!

the smiley one

thanks for all the comments and help!

Just on the B+L thing - I actually love economics (it is the only one of the business subjects which I'm doing for the LC); I can do accounting and business but I find them really really tedious. I'd much prefer to doa language with the course as I find them easier and much more interesting, HOWEVER I realise that B+L could be a very valuable course when looking for employment; also with B+L can you lean towards law very heavily and take little or no business subjects? and do you know if it would look better on a CV if going for a job here in Ireland or abroad

Sangre - all the info is much appreciated! I went to the UCD open day last year and to the law talk so I saw the faculty at Roebuck Castle and quite liked the fact that it was smaller than the arts block! I go to a private school *da da da duh* but am def NOT a d4 type, am actually from just outside Dublin; not sure if it would matter that much to me if there were many of *those* in my class really.
The northern acents in trinners might attract me though........
Oh, and I hate to sound all ignorant 'n all but could you explain to me the socrates thing?
thanks again!

Sangre

Im pretty sure its half/half business/law in B+L, as in, you do a certain amount of each subject a year but sometimes you can pick the law subject or something along those lines.
With regards to career wise, I would say a pure law degree at this time is looked more favourably at because B+L is quite new but there is great employment on the business side (whether justified or not).
Socrate/erasmus is just the name of the program that you can you do abord in europe for a year.

Also Im not saying these people arent really nice or D4, its just thats how they're perceived, there seems to be quite a high proportion of wealthy people in the course.
Also open day for me in ucd was gack, so boring. Although I think it was better this year (I was involved after all). I may have even spoken to/shouted at you.

I think economics is just one subject of many business type ones they do, from what I can tell they only do it in 1st year, unless it changed name (I know a LOT of people in B+L)

bunnicans

you do economics in first and second yr! you can also choose to do a language in second yr(french,german,spanish).erasmus takes place in third year.
you can choose to specialise in either law or business in forth yr.
B+L has been around for a good five yrs so its pretty well established at this stage!!!i wouldnt be worried about employment opportunities at all! in fact we've been told there will be great demand for us B+Lers!as for whether or not the employment opportunities on the business side of things are justified....we do exactly the same subjects as commerce so i'm sure we are just as qualified by the end of the four years.
good luck in choosing for your CAO.it can be tough but i'm sure you'll make the right decision.

Evilution

bunnicans wrote:

only about 140 people in the year...

You make that sound like a good thing.

the smiley one

ah!!! *hyperventilates* All the courses sound really good!! in UCD and Trinty - ahh!so basically now all I have to do is chose which one I want as my first choice - law, law and german, b+l with the new horizons thingy, or psychology (a late runner)......
oh dear

Neway, thanks a million for all your help! It really means a lot!

Sangre

bunnicans wrote:

you do economics in first and second yr! you can also choose to do a language in second yr(french,german,spanish).erasmus takes place in third year.
you can choose to specialise in either law or business in forth yr.
B+L has been around for a good five yrs so its pretty well established at this stage!!!i wouldnt be worried about employment opportunities at all! in fact we've been told there will be great demand for us B+Lers!as for whether or not the employment opportunities on the business side of things are justified....we do exactly the same subjects as commerce so i'm sure we are just as qualified by the end of the four years.
good luck in choosing for your CAO.it can be tough but i'm sure you'll make the right decision.

Its actually a really shorttime in the employment world, only one year of graduates so how can you tell as oppossed to a well establish subject like law.
Also I said that law is looked on more favourably because of its reputation and the people hiring you probably went there themselves. I said this was justified or not because maybe B+L is just as good.

You'll easily get employment with any of these courses. I think after a year or two 99% of law students were in education or employment with only 1% looking for work.

Oh, you can do those language courses in law (where do you think they got the idea )

Sangre

Also you're surrounded by nice 18th and 19th century buildings instead of the urban wasteland they have in Belfield, you start college in mid-october..... <insert standard reasons TCD is better then UCD>

Saw this on the Trin board, actually the law faculty in UCD is quite a good bit older than Trinity, around the 17th century I think.

Also the smiley one, the language course thing mentioned isnt to do with horizons which comes in next year, its a course you can do in 2nd year. Its to help you if you're going away for a year but anyone (places allowing) can do it.

besty

well im in 2nd yr b+l too and i would whole-heartedly recommend it. theres a great mix of people in the year and the mix between business and law subjects keeps it fresh. im just interested to know who bunnicans is.....hmmm

Elaine83

Your were wondering what to choose for your CAO first choice....
Well only you can ultimately decide but Im in BnL now and its an excellent course that leaves you with plently of options and a solid degree when you finish.
Ive only posted a reply to say please do not take advice on doing BnL from a law student that clearly has no actual or factual knowledge about the degree.
BnL is looked upon very favourably by employers particularly abroad as it offers them something different from the norm-theres only 140 graduates from business and legal each year and its the only course of its type in Ireland-we do just as much law as the law students, they just do less hours-and think about how many standard law graduates there are each year with nothing to differentiate themselves from each other.

If you decide to go to Trinity, Law and German is a great option-my cousin is in her fourth year and loves it-very small class so you make great friends witht them all.

Sangre

Elaine83 wrote:

Your were wondering what to choose for your CAO first choice....
Well only you can ultimately decide but Im in BnL now and its an excellent course that leaves you with plently of options and a solid degree when you finish.
Ive only posted a reply to say please do not take advice on doing BnL from a law student that clearly has no actual or factual knowledge about the degree.
BnL is looked upon very favourably by employers particularly abroad as it offers them something different from the norm-theres only 140 graduates from business and legal each year and its the only course of its type in Ireland-we do just as much law as the law students, they just do less hours-and think about how many standard law graduates there are each year with nothing to differentiate themselves from each other.

If you decide to go to Trinity, Law and German is a great option-my cousin is in her fourth year and loves it-very small class so you make great friends witht them all.

You have a serious chip on your shoulder.
You would have thought I insulted the course or something...jesus.

I think if you actually read my posts properly you wouldn't go into such a spasticated rage.....of course what should I expect from a B&L student.

the smiley one

children children.......!

Neways I've totally gone off the whole BnL thing - not because of any of the comments, just because I actually don't like business that much and would prefer to do law.

Btw just filled in my CAO today
1st: Law in TCD
2nd: Law and German in TCD
3rd: Law in UCD

(BnL was 6th-ish i think)

Although I have a good chance of switchin the 1st n 2nd around.........
I'm sorry I feel really bad only putting UCD 3rd but the general greyness and the distance turned me off

Thanks again for all your help and advice, it was invaluable!

Cecilia

A few words before you post that CAO Form.
UCD is the best law course in the country, and renowned for being so. It is far better than Trinity (despite being lower points), and proof of this can be found in the fact that every single Attorney General and Chief Justice in the history of Ireland, did a law degree in UCD.
Furthermore, the majority of current high court and supreme court judges, with most of the Senior Counsel Barristers too went to UCD.

Regarding B&L the top five law firms in Ireland recruit more people from B&L at UCD than any other course/college in the country. All the top five firms are commercial/business-oreintated law firms so they love B&L students.

Anyway, good luck!

Sangre

Ucd law isn't grey and depressing its in a castle for cripes sake!

BleedingHeart

albeit a grey and slightly depressing castle!

I'm a ucd law grad and i think choosing your course depends on a lot of different factors. I chose ucd over trinity cause i visited ucd on an open day and thought it looked more fun - which it was, i spent three of the best years of my life there and another on erasmus- a great opportunity which shouldn't be missed. I wouldn't advise going to ucd if you were going to do a course like Arts because its huge and almost impossible to get to know anybody. Law is different, the class is small and in your first year all your classes are together so you get to know everybody very well. plus there are usually alot of fun class parties and class trips away.

The UCD law faculty claims to be the best in the country. It is true that many of the top legal professionals in the country are ucd grads. However the teaching staff in the law faculty are also very distinguished, take for example Professor McCauley who teaches criminal law to first year, who is the director of the institute of criminology (based in ucd) and has recently chaired the expert group on codification of the criminal law.

Chosing between B&L and a straight law degree depends on what area of law you are interested in, for example if you wanted to go into corporate law then it would be a prudent choice. B&L allows you to choose a lot of law courses and you can specialise in law in your final year.

Finally a piece of advice. If you really want to work as a lawyer, or especially a solicitor, then i would consider not doing a law undergrad degree. Law graduates have to sit the same exams as other grads to get into Blackhall place to train as a solicitor. There are many preparatory courses for these exams e.g. in griffith college. Many employers might consider it more appealing if you have an undergraduate degree in another area. Of course this is also of personal benefit to you. Becoming a barrister is somewhat different, as those without a law degree have to first complete the King's Inns diploma before going on to do the BL degree. Don't do law just because you have the points for it, chose a course that you know will interest you.

Good luck with the Leaving and enjoy college whatever decision you make!

bunnicans

140 in the year is good when you consider other degress have far more plus there are only about 40 people in a class.