Raising with small to medium pocket pairs...

DeVore

Just an interesting question thats arisen out of the Q3 thread.

I've seen a lot of people get themselves screwed on mid and small pocket pairs by trying to get heads up with someone or take the pot uncontested.
I know this is almost a point of religion but its worth the discussion to see where people stand.

My position (and I'm giving away far too much of my play book on this forum!) is that I'll limp with 22-88 even to a small raise but it would want to be small! With 99, TT it will depend on the table. Anything higher and you cant really call it a small-to-medium PP.

Now, I keep seeing people go super big on 33 UTG and what I consider crazy plays like that. Yes, provided someone doesnt have a PP you are ahead, but against any caller at all it will be ~ 50/50. Ok fine, you probably wont get called by 44-99 (though then again I've seen that a lot too!) and in fact you probably will only get called by big cards or TT-AA. This play may double you through or may lose you your stack. Depending on the folding equity of the table, you may pick up the blinds but you risk all your stack on a veritable coinflip which is as +EV as the folding equity. Ugh!

I find a far better way to play them (and I cant take credit for this, Joe O'Neill sat me down one day and explained all this in small words and big gestures to a wided-eyed n00b ) is to limp and draw to a set. Cagey play then can get you a considerable amount more chips and at far greater odds in your favour.

Holding 55 and seeing KQ5 is nothing short of tasty. You are highly unlikely to be facing KK QQ but theres plenty of people who will pay you off or will stuff it all in (KQ being you're best mate in this scenario!). There is still danger but you should have a good idea where you are and you have masked your hands strength which makes your opponent play very far away from how he would if he knew you're cards (a very good thing according to our friend Sklansky).

You'll lose your call 7 times in 8 but that 8th time will more then pay for that.

Anyone else want to detail their standard approach to PPs?

DeV.

Hectorjelly

No need to thank joe, its standard practice, limp in with small or medium pps and try and hit a set. You can call a raise with them as long as its less than 1/10 of either your or your opponents hand. This is where a lot of the profit comes at deep stacked nl or pl poker, call a raise with 99 and bust somebody who wont let go of an overpair.

Hectorjelly

There are times when you need to play them aggressively, when the blinds are big for instance. The Q3 hand was a perfect opportunity for that guy, its a great place to push with almost any PP. Even if you get called its probably by two overcards, and with the famous overlay its a great move.

DeVore

Aye, its standard play for most of the players I consider decent, (Joe didnt have to educate me though and there are many who wouldnt). Thats why I'm surprised when I see people pushing pocket pairs less then <88 when the other way to play them has so much going for it AND doesnt risk a lot of your stack...

DeV.

Dub13

Low Pocket pairs are my nemeses over the last few weeks....what do you do with a big raise..?I had pocked 8s last week and folded to a bet of 2000 and two 8s come up on the board :eek: I have also binned pocket 9s that would have made me a house.

The question is what do you do when you have pocket pairs and a big raise comes in....you have to put any callers on over cards,so if they hit anything (and they have a much higer chance of hitting) you are drawing to one card for the set.

DeVore

Hectorjelly wrote:

There are times when you need to play them aggressively, when the blinds are big for instance. The Q3 hand was a perfect opportunity for that guy, its a great place to push with almost any PP. Even if you get called its probably by two overcards, and with the famous overlay its a great move.

Aye, though his mistake was that he should have pushed harder! All the same, with that many players in if he DOES fluke a 7 (and he will , what, one in eight times?) then he's certain to get action from the table because so many will have seen the flop. His problem is that he's so short stacked that after the flop its hard to stop anyone drawing. Even if he puts in 1100 off the bat all it takes is for TPTK to call and then the flush drawers and straight drawers will be in like a shot. The way some of them play in the fitz, the drawers would be reraising hahah..
I agree with you that he might have pushed all in in that situation but if he does he'll probably pick up 600 chips. Not bad... on the other hand he can chance his arm and maybe pick up a big pot. Either is good (and in fact the push is probably a better EV move over time as he doesnt have enough chips to get paid a big pot from one person and several opponents means scary draws). What he actually did with them was bad because it was neither fish nor fowl.

DeV.

Hyzepher

Yeah the fish was in the other hand

hyzepher

Jaden

PP are evil, esp low pairs, ie <77. I too will ruin my playbook just for the hell of it.

With 22 - 77 I will limp in pre flop (I might call a 2 x raise if I feel so inclined), and lay down to any decent raise post flop. With 55,66,77 in late position I will raise if there are limpers, as the pot size will swell to make this worthwhile.

88,99,TT,JJ I will raise preflop (3xBB) and call the same. I will again lay down if there are 2 overcards on the flop and I get raised more than 3xBB .

QQ,KK,AA I will come out fighting. Big raise, or re-raise preflop. Bet out post flop. If you have a decent pocket pair, don't let it get to the turn.

The thing with PP is that the odds are stacked against you improving your hand, so the fewer cards people see, the better. Like Dolly says: "If you think you are ahead, bet big".

That aside, online small stakes stuff requires that you lay down less than 77 to a 3xBB raise preflop, and flat call with anything bigger. This is because online you should play gently until the flop, and go mad if you hit a set post flop or turn. Some muppet will always call with 2 pair, even all in.

Face to face I would stick to a more conventional approach, as outlined above.

The hardest thing in the world to do is lay down a PP. I have only recently learned to put down KJ to a raise pre-flop, but as of yet putting down PP preflop is difficult, even though I know it's the right thing to do.

Right, that's me screwed next time in the Fitz, unless I'm playing Amp, cos he's crap.

DeVore

Dub13 wrote:

Low Pocket pairs are my nemeses over the last few weeks....what do you do with a big raise..?I had pocked 8s last week and folded to a bet of 2000 and two 8s come up on the board :eek: I have also binned pocket 9s that would have made me a house.

The question is what do you do when you have pocket pairs and a big raise comes in....you have to put any callers on over cards,so if they hit anything (and they have a much higer chance of hitting) you are drawing to one card for the set.

mostly I'll fold. It obviously depends on the situation (like so much of poker). If you are short stacked and desperate, well there's a reason we call it gambling!
If you have a read or from past experience think you might have the best of it then either call or reraise. I dont recommend this approach personally but then I dont trust my reads too often or that strongly.

(I played a guy once who consistently shoved all in utg with low pocket pairs declaring that he hated them and wanted the hand over. Later in the night he did it again and holding 99 I thought to myself... you my friend, are a moron. 33 vs 99 = double through for me.)

My personal nightmare is holding say 99 and the board comes 257 rainbow and someone reraise my raise. Now, have they played A7 and think their boat has come in? Have they played 34,46 or something drawing or do they have a pp that might be bigger or smaller then yours! Ugh.

btw, one word of advice... it doesnt matter what happens on the flop after you toss them. Paris Hilton could burst forth from the deck and screw the winner senseless, you are still either correct to drop them or not, the resulting board is merely a specific case of a general principle and shouldnt be paid much attention.

DeV.

Hyzepher

DeVore wrote:

Paris Hilton could burst forth from the deck and screw the winner senseless,
DeV.

Ah the good old days...

Hyzepher

Dub13

DeVore wrote:

btw, one word of advice... it doesnt matter what happens on the flop after you toss them. Paris Hilton could burst forth from the deck and screw the winner senseless, you are still either correct to drop them or not, the resulting board is merely a specific case of a general principle and shouldnt be paid much attention.

DeV.

I am starting to come around to this (at long last),if I fold them I no longer get into the whole "I would have won that pot" thing,in this game it would drive you mad if you do the whole "if my granny had balls she would be my granda" thing.I do however come on here from time to time and rant about what I folded,I look on it as my therapy.


Tom,
I do like the Paris Hilton idea....(anybody see her "home move" ).Would your dreams be coming out here...?

DeVore

Never seen Paris Hilton (naked or otherwise). Not really a blonde long-legged supermodel kinda guy to be honest. Now, yer wan from the French version of Nikita or Lola from Run Lola Run ... they're hot!

Getting vaguely back on topic, I used to only watch the board to see if I was regularly putting down hands that have some value I might not have seen before... right now I dont even do that as I'd have to see the hand hundreds of times to decern any flaws in my play of it given that I think I've knock most of the big kinks out of my preflop hand selection. There is certainly room for improvement but what I'm saying is that observation isnt going to highlight them for me. I think reading books and examining the probabilities solution space is a better way to educate myself.

On that point I've recently loosened up a bit in certain situations (please, no Q3 jokes ) and have mixed it up a bit more and been less afraid that everyone I'm up against has big cards or has hit...

Dont get me wrong I'm as bad as the next guy (or worse!) for saying "Jesus christ, I dropped 47 on that 774 board fs!" but its just that I dont reevaluate my starting hands or chide myself for not playing it.

Pocket pairs have to be the most consistently misplayed hands I've seen, that and AT (which I admit to being a sucker for occasionally!)

Now, one area I'm not sure about is in the middle of the tournie, say BB is at 400 or 600 and you get 77 and have 4K and it gets to you with 1 caller... those are the sorts of hands that make me frown and go in the tank simply to curse my indecision. Half the time I'll toss this hand, particularly in early position half the time I'll go big and try to take the blinds but I hate both moves and I think limping is worse again!

DeV.

Iago

22-55 I'll limp in, if I'm in late position with only 1 or 2 callers I might put in a min raise to see if I can the blinds or drawing hands out, and increase the size of the pot. I fold these PP's to almost every raise unless I know the player and can read them.

66-99 and sometimes TT, I'll limp in from any position and see what the flop hits. Depending on the betting post flop I may fold, call or raise. Depends on cards and the players I'm up against.

JJ-QQ raise preflop, 2 or 3xBB

KK-AA Depending on my position I'll either raise these or limp in. e.g if there is only one caller after the blinds and I'm last or second last to act I'll limp with either of these PP's

pretty standard I think..[size=-12]/me waits to be crucified by DeV or Hector [/size]

[size=-12]Disclaimer:All the above completely dependant on stack size and or stage of a tournament, as well as the angle of the sun in the sky and the colour socks I'm wearing [/size]

DeVore

sounds good to me, though I would always put in some kind of raise on AA or KK unless I was the SB or button and even then I will probably try to pretend I'm stealing to induce a call or reraise.

Jacks I would put in a stiffer raise then 2xBB to force out KJ, KT, AT, QT and maybe KQ. Also, I know that on a J-or-worse flop thats not too scary I'll be trying my best to shut the pot down there and then so I want SOME value for the hand. NB: I hate jacks almost as much as I hate TT.

DeV.

Lafortezza

PP 22-55 limp if there's several callers, if I'm button or close to it and there's been no raise I'll raise to take the blinds. I've begun to fold 22-55 these days too. I've started to recognise the I need some value in the pot if I'm to profitably limp to try to hit a set.

66-1010 I've either call or raise depending on the table and current position/stacks/blinds. Often with 99 or 1010 I'm happy to Stop-and-Go by calling a biggish raise preflop then betting any board that I think my opponent has missed. If the flop is all royalty then I'll see what happens.

I never ever slowplay AA-QQ preflop, always raise even a min raise, I can't stand when you let 74o in to hit 2 pair on a raggy flop.

Every hand/situation is different though.

DeVore

Ok, I admit I stole Paddy Hicks blinds last night with 55 but thats only cos they were Paddy's and well, their the nicest blinds to steal!! (Great crack with Paddy last night!)

DeV.

Dub13

DeV,What did you make of the Double Chance idea..?do you think it will catch on..?

DeVore

I liked it but I think it would be close to the same as a 50-euro , 3000 chip game. I split the money last night and then got bored playing for the change and tossed it in on QJ suited. Pity cos then I rememebered there are league points for where you place.

DeV.

Dub13

I may give it a try next week.How are you getting on in the league...?

^edit^ on second thoughts The other half is due any day so I may not get a chance next week.

DeVore

I dont know how well I'm doing in the league yet but I have a first, a third and a fourth since the new year, plus you get points for entering tournies too.
I'd hope to be in the pack with those results (god knows its not going to stay that good hahahah).

DeV.