Scores of Ineligible archers

Aryzel

Thanks to everyone getting back to me confirming the eligiblity of your archers before christmas.

The way things now stand, the scores from another archer from ucd should not be counted this year. Unfortunately removing his scores changes team results from the DCU intervarsity. Maynooth would have beat UCD and come 3rd except for this archers scores.

I will be talking to ucd to wednesday but i'd like to check if everyone else is ok with this. Basically my suggestion is that if someone is found to actually be ineligible to shoot then their scores will be removed and the results redone. If this means that medals must be returned and awarded to another person or team then that is an unfortunate concequence, but is basically the ultimate punishment for the team that made the mistake.

While this can seem quite harsh it is really the only fair action. If a team can make a mistake about who shoots and yet gets to keep medals won as a result of that mistake, it is unfair to teams that didn't make a mistake.

If a score should not have been counted then it should be removed and not be counted. The same will apply to people who accidently shoot as a beginner when they should have been advanced.

If people have questions, comments or objections please voice them now.

Renegade_Archer

Agreed.


Regards


Ewan

trig

Sounds reasonable.

halenger

Harsh, especially on the innocent team members (ones who wouldn't be involved in running the club etc), but it's the only fair way unfortunately.

I'd be gutted though. "Just a medal" to some perhaps but others not necessarily. Hopefully this will be a once off.

Aryzel

UCD are not quite happy with the ideal of the scores been removed. Or rather with their scores been removed.

Therefore once ucd get a chance to talk amoung themselves, i'll present the situtation to the club captains at the carlow competition, then UCD will present their case (if they decide to do that), but there will NOT be a formal discussion of it at carlow, because people need time to think about it and some clubs will only hear about it at carlow. Rather everyone will have two weeks and we'll sort it out at UCD intervarsity.

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There will be two parts to be decided.

First. What to do in the case of future mistakes, the suggestion is that the scores in question will be removed and results recalucated. This is pretty much the only suggestion as letting people off means its worthwhile to make mistakes.

Second. What to do about UCD mistakes. I suggest the above should apply, UCD disagree. To be presented at Carlow IV and discussed and decided at UCD IV.

trig

Have they got any alternative suggestions bout how to deal with a situation like this?
Whats their argument for not getting docked?

halenger

I have to agree with your assessment there Dermot. It it, as I previously said, muchly harsh but it sure as hell isn't gonna happen again.

Unfortunately this means that some bitterness could come about - this will happen either by just the suggest or the outcome. I think the UCD people would find it rather tough if the rest of the colleges voted to agree to your second point (where as they intended to vote against). That said perhaps not all colleges will agree to this.

It is a nasty situation. It might be worth considering a "from here on" policy. I mean it's possible that if we dug back through the records it could effect other years. But anyhow that wasn't my point. I think the governing committee should have a sit down and make sure that all these rules are hammered out in stone. A concrete and clear set of guidelines that would help avoid this sort of situation. Now I don't mean a very explicit and detailed list as trying to cover every possibility is not being realistic. Basic but clear guidelines and a simple "mail committee@..." if you are unclear on any point. That'd allow it to be talked out between the committee members.

That's all gone a little waffly for my liking. This is a delicate matter. We don't want to alienate UCD or the team members who stand to lose medals. Yes it's just a medal but it can mean a lot to some(/most/all).

Aryzel

UCD committee haven't talked about this amoung themselves yet, so the UCD position isn't finialised.

However also think about other clubs affected. What about the team that would have won the medals, should they lose out on medals because another team basically cheated, by accident in this case, but the effects are the same.

Also gmit counted two people as guests at Maynooth iv, if they had made the same mistake as ucd they would have come 3rd instead of 5th. Also gives UCD extra points overall for the league.


I'm making up a full set of rules for the league atm, should have them ready for carlow. Anyways its best to leave this until UCD figure out what they are doing.

Also removing the scores just means your returning the results to what they would have been if no mistake had occured. If its possible to rectify the results then that is the obvious solution.

Reku

Start as you mean to continue on, in other words whatever you decide should be the penalty for future cases of clubs using inelegible archers should be applied to UCD equally, otherwise you'll just have the next lot it happens to whine even more about it and keep citing this case.
Besides I'm sure UCD can do better than 3rd.

halenger

That's a good point alright. There'd be no room for argument if UCD are punished. We'll see how it goes sure.

Aryzel

Anyways, its best to leave this topic until UCD make time to talk about it amoung themselves, it might get worked out without too much fuss.

Chriswx

the fault is not with ucd but with whoever was running the maynooth intervarsity. it was their responsibility to check student cards for all competetors!
also rules changing this can easily be brought in but cannot be backdated.

i think that the position should stand and have to question hether it was a coincidince that it happened at maynooth were the home team had a chance to get a medal and not any other intervarstiy...

halenger

That's a bit conspiracy theorist in fairness. It's not like they've mysteriously just won the entire event!

As for ID checking well it's never been done anywhere. Think it's been an honour system until now and that has worked. I'd rather see it continue as an honour system and not bring IDs into things. What if I forget my ID? That makes me ineligible to compete? That'd be pretty crappy in my opinion.

Aryzel

Responsibilty for archers shooting in the correct category and are eligible belongs with each individual club. As does the responsibilty for knowing the rules.

Its not medals that are been disputed its the fact that staff shot for UCD at the DCU and Maynooth IV. I found out about it because i train with UCD and was talking to them in the bar afterwards, otherwise it would never have been known. The medals are a side affect of trying to fix the mistake.

If i found out someone at maynooth shouldn't have been counted i would have suggested their scores be removed aswell. Actually, at the maynooth intervarsity i did make a mistake, 3rd place beginner was given to someone from maynooth by mistake, it should have gone to someone from GMIT, and i've got the trophy here to give to her at carlow. Also i consider UCD my club also, always have, always will. So an idea that this is a consiparacy to get medals is total bull****, you obviously don't know me well.

This matter is causing far more trouble than is appearent on these boards and i'm having nothing more to do with it after this post. My final suggestion for the overall long term good of the league is that in the future if it is found that someone shot in the wrong category or shouldn't have shot at all, then the mistake is fixed by removing the scores and the results recaluclated. No matter how the mistake occurred. However what to do in case of a mistake wasn't defined before this, and because its causing so much trouble, let the UCD scores stand.

I'll have a set of rules ready for Carlow and ye can do what ye want with them, but i'm having nothing more to do with this or anything else. I'll maintain the results and awards until the end of the season but i will not be helping out in anything else again.

My last word on this. For each club, its your own responsibilty to know everything. If you don't put in the effort to find something out, why do you compain that someone else didn't put in the same effort to tell you?

halenger

Don't let one incident sour your whole experience Dermot. You've done a lot for the IV league, a hell of a lot, and I'm sure everyone appreciates it as much as I do, even though I've not been around all that long.

trig

I have to take the unusual step of agreeing with halenger on this one. It's not up to you to decide whether this is over Aryzel. We all appreciate all you've done for the IV league, despite what Chriswx says, although I think he/she is probably only joking about the conspiracy theory thing.

Its really a matter all the clubs should have a say in. What have UCD said in their defence? Its hard to think of a reason they should hold on to their medals. But I really would like to hear from them before we pass judgement on them.

You'd think they'd have had enough of bronze medals at this stage!

halenger

It'd really be a matter for the current college archery committee (whatever the name is ) to decide on. Perhaps their first big decision, so to speak?

Aryzel

I didn't say this was over, just that i'm having nothing more to do with it. Of course it still have to be delt with by the clubs.

However, i mean what i say about not taking part in other things. I'll maintain the results, take care of maynooth and shoot for myself, thats all i intend to do. Although i'm very bad at the not helping people bit so i probably will end up doing more than that.

But i'm definitely not going to meetings anymore or organising anything. I guess that means i'm no longer secretary of ISAA.



New years resolution:
"Be less helpful and generous to people"

Renegade_Archer

Well thats just great you sh*theads, youve lost us our secretary - the guy who was ideally suited to the job, and was doing a great job of it whats more.


My proposal is this; at the end of the Carlow IT inter, we get one representative from each club in a room, and have a show of hands as to whether UCD should have to give the medals back, and if UCD dont want to give the medals back, a show of hands whether they should be disqualified for the rest of the academic year or not.

Either way, from now on, Im proposing the compulsory showing of ID cards at intervarsities, you asshats obviously cant make a go of the honour system, be it accidental or not.

halenger

There's no need for that sort of crap now Ewan. Bit more cop on in fairness. It's clearly been tough on him and he alluded to there being a lot of off boards discussion about it with UCD so you coming on here cursing/name_calling/whatever_the_fsck the lot of us doesn't help the situation whatsoever.

I think the student ID think is quite crap to be honest. That's just my personal opinion. I do have my ID on my all the time anyhow (thus not effected) but as I said, opinion.

Reku

Also there's the whole big problem of the fact that once it becomes compulsary to show your student ID at all events the year's grace thing goes out the window (colleges don't tend to issue you a student ID when you're no longer a student strangely enough ).

halenger

Well one would assume that your final year student card would be accepted but these things do get lost and so forth. Not like your college would re-issue you with one after you've graduated!

trig

Originally posted by Chriswx
also rules changing this can easily be brought in but cannot be backdated

but has a rule been changed?
I mean it was always the case that non students could not shoot unless on a years grace. There is no change of rule here and I don't think anybody is disputing that a rule was broken by UCD, albeit unintentionally. What does seem to be in question is the punishment for breaking the rule. Is that a fair assessment?
If we can all agree on that fact, then it becomes a question of who decides the punishment for breaking the rule, and what the punishment is, if any.

Who ever said it was the host's responsibility to check the student IDs Chriswx?

Aryzel

Does nobody ever listen, there seems to be some deep abyss between peoples ears and their brains....

There are two separte issues here, what to do in the case of future mistakes and the UCD issue. Keep them separate. Deal with the future mistakes rule. There is no need for the ID checks, it impractical and just plain stupid. The current system works fine, what happened with ucd was due to a lack of knowledge on their part.

---

To prevent and deal with future mistakes:
(1) Inform each college of the rules (i'll have them at Carlow), Also when Gavin is calling everyone he should ask them to confirm that all archers are in the correct categoy and are either students or on their years grace. Staff can't shoot and Post-Docs are staff.

(2) Also tell them that mistakes with archers, will be fixed by simply removing the score of the archer in question. If the score should not have been counted then the obvious solution is to remove the score, noone can possibly complain about this once they are aware this is what happens if mistakes occur.

(3) While every effort should be made each year by the ISAA committee to inform all incoming committees of each club of the rules, make clear to each college now, that it is each clubs own reponsibity to know the rules, and to pass them along to new members in their club. Once known to the club once, a club should never complain that they didn't know the rules, its their own reponsibilty to pass them along to new members.

(4) When a mistake does occur, and it will eventually. If the score should not have counted, then it should be discounted. Simple. No matter how honest a mistake, it is the only action that is fair to all clubs in the league.



UCD mistake
Two choices here:
(A) Apply the above rule and remove the scores that should not have been counted.
(B) Accept that as nothing was fully defined before this that the rules applies from this point on.

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Of course someone can always suggest a different course of action in the case of mistakes, i just can't think of a better one. Also whenever a mistake occurs there might be a valid reason not to remove the scores, i can't think of a reason here, but if necessary exceptions can obviously be made by what ever ISAA committee that have to deal with the situation.


Also, ye can't really work this out at Carlow, simply because some clubs don't even know about it. GMIT and NUIG in particular not sure who else, so everyone should be informed of the situation at Carlow, and then deal with it at UCD, that gives everyone time to think about it.

For however is going to run that meeting, bring a big stick And keep the UCD issue separate from the future mistakes issue.

Finally after this very long post, its fairly obvious i'm really bad at not getting involved in stuff, so if ye want i'll stay on as secretary. i'll even help with the issue of future mistakes, but i'm leaving the room when it comes to the UCD issue.

trig

Aryzel wrote:

there seems to be some deep abyss between peoples ears and their brains

Guilty as charged.
OK, that makes sense. And good to have you back! Would it make sense to have a poll about the two UCD choices i.e.

(A) Apply the above rule and remove the scores that should not have been counted.
(B) Accept that as nothing was fully defined before this that the rules applies from this point on.

or is it better left till Carlow?

halenger

Poll seems like a bad idea. Leave it to a meeting in person with reps from each club. That seems like the best idea to me.

Reku

Better chance of fair representation of all clubs if it's done in person at an IV, too small a fraction of the archers use this site. It'd also give UCD a chance to plead their case/let us know how they feel about what's going on so it'd be better in that respect too.

Obviously be better to sort out the "next time this happens" aspect in person at an IV too.

Aryzel

You can't do a poll, first only a few clubs use this site, also its down to a single rep from each club, not 5 people from one club, ect.

Also it can't be decided at Carlow as several clubs will only know this is going on then, inform people of it at Carolw, decision on it at UCD.

trig

I didn't want to make a decission with the poll, just wanted to know how people felt on the matter. I'm stupid, but I'm not that stupid.

halenger

I know you didn't mean decide by poll. I just felt it'd be a bit inapporpriate.

That's a very good point Dermot. It's a shame everyone doesn't use here so people wouldn't be outta the loop so to speak. Bit of a sit down and discussion at Carlow will do it. Just once people refrain from accusations etc it should be fine.

Reble_archer

i leave ye alone for one week and all hell breaks loose, secretary resigns and chairman starts cursing! glad ur staying dermot, and i dont think there should be much issue wit taking back the medals, if they didnt deserve them, why should they have them?

sgtdiesalot

basically, were the rules to mean anything, they should be applied from the start. It might seem harsh to take the points of ucd but what about the other teams, not fair on them if its not done ( one rule for all).

may the fleas of a thousand camels infest the crotch of the person who screws up your day and may their arms to short to scratch :eek:

baggins

Someone who has a few days to spare really should go back to the beginning of this thread and read it from then till now. it is an awful lot like a bunch of old women giving out (no offence to the aged female contingent, if there is one). i'm pretty sure aryzel has repeated some things up to four times, yet still peaople are havin a go. it's gonna be a long day in UCD, and i think a shotgun may be needed. Some people dont comprehend logic for some reason. anyway, it'll be great fun.

Just out of interest:
Podge, when did you change your signature?

sgtdiesalot

handbags at 3 paces is always fun to watch

halenger

baggins wrote:

Just out of interest:
Podge, when did you change your signature?

Week or 3 ago, why? It automatically changes all my posts - so I've always the one signature whereever you look.