Derren Brown and Belief - C4

Myksyk

I wonder did anybody catch Derren Brown's recent programme on C4 exploring belief and why we should be skeptical. I think it was called Messiah or something.

What was the gist of the programme?

landser

i watched. it was ok.

he tried to pass himself off as having various gifts e.g. that he could convert people to religion by touching them, that he was psychic, could talk to the dead, that he was an alien abductee and could diagnose ailments as a result and that he had invented a dream reading machine.

he then met with various exponents of such matters and tried to get their endoresemnet. once received heput the gifts it into practice.

it was good insofar as it examined how we are all susceptible to manipulation and how the whole mystical stuff (especially talking to the dead) is mainly just proffering generalisations which recipients then manipulate to fit their lives.

BTW, is he the poshest man on TV?

davros

Ah rats, I missed it! I knew there was something I had intended to watch on Friday before the wind took out my NTL connection (TV + internet gone in one fell swoop - what else is worth doing on a Friday night?)

BrendanBurgess

I think the most interesting and frightening bits of the programme was where he invited an audience of non-believers and skeptics to a talk on Christianity and managed to convert all of them to theists. Presumably he used some form of hypnotism?

Brendan

pH

Of all the things to be Skeptical about Hypnotism should be right up there. In my opinion it is the most prominently held 'untrue' belief. Even very skeptical people who have nothing to do with UFOs, ghosts and faeries believe that a Human being can Hypnotise another as seen on various Stage shows and TV programs.

With Derren before you go attributing magical powers of mentalism and Hypnosis, you have to 100% discount the alternative (and much more mundane) explanation that the subjects are Stooges and are in on it.

Penn & Teller - BullSh!t is returning to FX289 for series 2, and includes an episode on Hypnotism.

pH

Myksyk

Is that channel available on Sky?

pH

Yep Fx is channel 289 on the Sky EPG

It's not a freeview channel, you need a Sky subscription to watch.

Series 2 starts Thursday 13th January 2005
Time: 22:00 to 22:35

pH

Myksyk

Apart from Penn and Teller which I would love to see, what kind of stuff is on it ... is it worth it??

BrendanBurgess

pH wrote:

Of all the things to be Skeptical about Hypnotism should be right up there. In my opinion it is the most prominently held 'untrue' belief. ...


With Derren before you go attributing magical powers of mentalism and Hypnosis, you have to 100% discount the alternative (and much more mundane) explanation that the subjects are Stooges and are in on it.

pH

Hi pH

Interesting point to which I have never given any real consideration. I had thought that hypnosis/brain washing/mesmerism was a fairly well established practice. Is it not? The Skeptics Dictionary thinks it's overhyped, but doesn't deny the existence of hypnotism.

Usually I would look for the stooge explanation first. But there would really have to be a massive conspiracy if that programme was a set-up. He made total fools of so many people who had reputations in their fields. Is there any serious documented evidence that Derren Brown is a fraud?

Brendan

pH

BrendanBurgess wrote:

Is there any serious documented evidence that Derren Brown is a fraud?
Brendan

No more a fraud that any magician who misdirects us.

Take the UFO scene where he diagnoses the UFO researcher either:

A/ He can diagnose ailments if they lay hands on him.
B/ He had access to her medical records/other information
C/ She was tricked into being complicit in making the program to further her own career in UFOlogy.

People can go on all they want about 'tells' and 'body language' and in certain situations a skilled reader can make use of them but they do not apply to diagnosing removals of a thyroid gland 40 years ago.

Maybe there is an alternative explanation I'm missing?

pH

BrendanBurgess

That was the whole point Derren was trying to prove. He was not claiming to diagnose medical ailments. He was showing how gullible people could be. He doesn't claim to be using magic or to have any special spiritual powers. He kept telling us the audience that he was conning these guys.

Brendan

pH

I understand the point of the show, what I'm asking is in context to your 'Fraud' question:

Given Derren did tell this Woman about an operation 40 years ago (without using special powers) what possible explanations are there for him knowing this, and of those explanations which would you consider to make him a fraud?

pH

sliabh

I didn't see the program myself and I caught about the last 10 seconds on the E4 repeat during the week. If anyone knows (or spots) another repeat can they post details here. I'd like to be sure I catch this one.

pH

After reading a bit more, especially people responses on various boards on the net, my opinion of Derren has dropped even lower. He appears now to be only one step above Geller, doing tricks but passing them off as something else. Even worse as part of 'debunking' various ideas, he leads people to believe he's doing it using NLP and Psycology, when in fact he's doing standard tricks.

for example here's some typical responses discussing the show :

Link

By using well-trodden psychological tricks (cold reading, NLP etc), he was able to do as much, if not significantly more, than the so-called genuine people could.

Even I knew some of the remote viewing pictures. Here's a quick example: Derren said to the lady: "Make it simple; don't go overboard" and she drew a ship. These are the dead simple NLP tactics anyone can use to make people think you can read their minds.

Did you not see the program where he explained many of his 'tricks'? The remote viewing has a lot to do with suggestion, someone has already given a possible explanation for the religious conversion and the dream machine sequence presumably had a lot to do with Derren sitting in the subjects chair and translating objects she sees all day every day into dreams. Can't figure out the alien abduction one yet though!

People believe that Derren 'Suggests' or somehow forces the drawer to draw what he wants.

Also see explantion of dream machine and positing NLP.

The Medium Session was far to good for cold reading.

In general I think think that exposing the way Magic Tricks are done is bad form, but in Derren Browns case, he's managed to convince the public that he can 'push' thoughts into other people's heads (See other shows where he makes a taxi driver forget where the London Eye is, and famous man on tube scene). I think Derren's tricks are therefore fair game.

It's now well known the Russian Roulette was a trick, and Simon Singh has challenged him on other matters. See Here for a critical view.

landser

the alien abduction thing is quite easy. the woman is clearly in her seventies. most people will have an operation in their lifetime. he never actually said it was 40 years ago. he said that it was a long time ago and used 40 years as an example per se of a long time ago.

she had a wheezy cracly voice and some scarring on her neck. ergo she had a throat op a long time ago.

as for the medium session. you throw out a couple of names, tell the person they had a very strong relationship with the deceased, that they didn't see eye to eye and they never got to say waht they wanted befor ethey died. if you said that to me, it would fit almost every person i know who has died.

Brown works on psychology and statistics. we all behave the same within certain perameters and most are suggestible. that's how he makes his £.

debunking all this hocus pocus bollix is great fun.

pH

the alien abduction thing is quite easy. the woman is clearly in her seventies. most people will have an operation in their lifetime. he never actually said it was 40 years ago. he said that it was a long time ago and used 40 years as an example per se of a long time ago.

I'm not so sure. DB would not rely on being able to pick up this in the moment. This woman has written a number of books, and probably takes part in discussions etc. I would be amazed if DB did not know her medical history before walking into the room.

as for the medium session. you throw out a couple of names, tell the person they had a very strong relationship with the deceased, that they didn't see eye to eye and they never got to say waht they wanted befor ethey died. if you said that to me, it would fit almost every person i know who has died.

Still the information was too good for a cold reading. That session was definitely a hot reading.

BrendanBurgess

Given Derren did tell this Woman about an operation 40 years ago (without using special powers) what possible explanations are there for him knowing this, and of those explanations which would you consider to make him a fraud?


Ph - I can't understand why you describe what he is doing as fraudulent. If I walk into Arnotts and cash a cheque and walk out with the money, that's fraud. If I tell the manager of Arnott's that I will show him how easy it is to cash a cheque in his shop, then that's not fraud. Brown told his TV audience that he was going to deceive these people to expose them. That's not fraud.

I think he has managed to deceive you if you think he did a hot reading. It was fairly standard cold reading stuff. "He's talking about a Charles or a Peter...that's not his name, that's someone else's". And of course she knew someone called Charles. Of course he could have done a hot reading, but he had no need to.

Brendan

pH

Ph - I can't understand why you describe what he is doing as fraudulent. If I walk into Arnotts and cash a cheque and walk out with the money, that's fraud. If I tell the manager of Arnott's that I will show him how easy it is to cash a cheque in his shop, then that's not fraud. Brown told his TV audience that he was going to deceive these people to expose them. That's not fraud.

Yep that's not fraud. I didn't mention Fraud. All I said was Derren does go out of his way to make the TV audience believe that although he is not using 'Mystical' powers - he uses his own superhuman powers of Psycological Reading and NLP to achive.

Take the scene where he remote views. He's clearly heard saying things just before she draws the boat like 'Sail through .. go overboard". This is here to reinforce the belief (that many hold) that Derren uses the power of suggestion to achieve the remote viewing trick. The tape is cleverly edited and in fact this is overdubbed and not part of the original scene (is this fraud?).

The medium session if most definitely a hot reading. Yes some aspects are made to look like a cold reading. This is deliberate, as Derren states on the show he's doing a cold reading (is this Fraud?), and is using Hot reading to make his apparent cold reading all the more incredible.

People are ready to explain the Conversion scene to Hypnosis. Before the scene shown the convertees are given the usual when I say the word 'X' you will now believe fully in Jesus Christ our Lord. When I count to three you will wake up ....

This is impossible, hypnotism is a sham, everyone you've ever seen on TV or stage imagining they're a hen laying a square egg or are a Chippendale are PRETENDING!! - it's a bit of fun where they go along with the hypnotist. Under no real sense are they under his control or are their conscious minds actually experiencing these illusions.

BrendanBurgess

pH wrote:

All I said was Derren does go out of his way to make the TV audience believe that ... he uses his own superhuman powers of Psycological Reading and NLP to achive.

...
The medium session if most definitely a hot reading. Yes some aspects are made to look like a cold reading. This is deliberate, as Derren states on the show he's doing a cold reading (is this Fraud?), and is using Hot reading to make his apparent cold reading all the more incredible.

I have never heard him refer to himself as superhuman. When he does explain things, he speaks about tricking people - no magic, no spirits. I haven't heard him refer to NLP either, but perhaps he does.

If the medium session is a hot reading and he says it is a cold reading, then it is fraud. But you are simply asserting that it is a hot reading. It can be simply explained by cold reading. There is no need to invoke fraud to explain what he did. What evidence do you have that he had information about the people beforehand?

davros

BrendanBurgess wrote:

If the medium session is a hot reading and he says it is a cold reading, then it is fraud.

"Fraud" is the wrong word here. Fraud is a crime whereby someone is misled into parting with money, etc. If Derren Brown says it's one thing but is really doing something else, that's just classic magicians' misdirection. The only outcome is entertainment. We expect that magicians will try to deceive us - that's the point.

But it can be a tough line for them to tread. Many magicians abhor the charlatans who claim paranormal powers for financial gain. And yet they can't reveal how their own tricks are done in order to prove that they are not really mysterious at all. I thought Keith Barry looked very uncomfortable recently when doing a trick with Gerry Ryan. He was trying to say that he couldn't really read Gerry's thoughts without spoiling the effect. But he had asked Gerry to think of a dead person and Gerry had mentally picked his father. Keith Barry came up with a few remarkable details about the father and Gerry genuinely seemed shaken. Barry's hinting that is was just a trick didn't seem sufficient to me in this case.

pH

BrendanBurgess wrote:

I have never heard him refer to himself as superhuman. When he does explain things, he speaks about tricking people - no magic, no spirits. I haven't heard him refer to NLP either, but perhaps he does.

Maybe superhuman is the wrong word, but he does claim his tricks are done using extrahuman abilities. He tells us that his shows are achieved using psycological techniques. This is taken to mean his uncanny ability to read peoples thoughts, and his ability to use the power of suggestion. He has already reinforced your belief in Hypnotism as a plausible explanation for some of the tricks.

BrendanBurgess wrote:

If the medium session is a hot reading and he says it is a cold reading, then it is fraud. But you are simply asserting that it is a hot reading. It can be simply explained by cold reading. There is no need to invoke fraud to explain what he did. What evidence do you have that he had information about the people beforehand?

Hot Reading eveidence is as follows and I'm only going to use the first few seconds of the scene, there is so much more I just dont have the time.

Start of Scene
Derrne Brown
"Old Lady ... But with black hair"
pause
"Tied back"
"Yea?"

Note the camera is already on the mark to catch her shudder when he says tied back!

Subject "Mnnhuh"

Derren
"OK? alright ahhhh"
"Lily or Lucy or something like that ... Yea? .. No? "

Subject "Say it again"

Derren "Lily or Lucy or Li ..."

Subject Interupts "Lucy"

That is a hot reading, there is no cold reading technique to get the name once the target has been identified.

Sure a cold reader could throw "Lucy/Lilly" out to the audience and see who bites but the person has already bitten on "Hair tied back" (and the cameraman knew who he was looking for!)

BrendanBurgess

I can't remember the specific case, but "old lady, tied hair" is very, very general. Possibly applies to every younger person in the group.

Lilly, or Lucy or...

Cold readers will hit it very lucky from time to time, they throw out so many suggestions. I don't know how popular the name Lucy is in that part of America. If she hadn't interrupted him, would he have tried another few names? Or maybe just said "No" and he would have moved onto something else. What did surprise me was that he called out names like Charles which I thought would be more appropriate to an English audience.

Brendan

pH

Like I said before cold readers get 'lucky' by chucking out a name into the whole audience. Once identified the chances of guessing the name right are too small to risk. Like I said before it's hot reading with some fumbles to make it look like a cold reading - he was being observed by a 'medium' at the time.

I guess we'll agree to differ on this point.

BrendanBurgess

The key point of the programme was that he showed how easy it is to fool people. If it was a hot reading, he fooled me. If it was a cold reading, he fooled you.

I see from the Irish Times that he is performing in the Olympia on Friday 8 April. It's called the "Something wicked this way comes tour".

Brendan

daggeredge

in response to "is he the poshest man on tv?" I'd say he's a dead heat with Jeremy Clarkson and David Dickinson!

Myksyk

Go to James Randi's site for some comments on the show:
http://www.randi.org/jr/012105the.html

tuxy

does anyone have a torrent for this or any of his other stuff?
in pm if its not allowed to be posted on these boards

davros

tuxy wrote:

does anyone have a torrent for this or any of his other stuff?
in pm if its not allowed to be posted on these boards

Right, don't post that info here. Cheers!

tuxy

davros wrote:

Right, don't post that info here. Cheers!

just out of interest why not?
links to torrents of programs that were on tv seems to be allowed on the politics board
why not here?

davros

I am under the impression that it is a long-standing Boards policy not to facilitate sharing of copyrighted material. I tried to find somewhere in the FAQs that explicitly said that but I couldn't. Am I wrong? I'm a bit surprised to hear about Politics. I'd have thought folks would be wary of those with deep pockets who are inclined to make an example of file sharers in the courts.

Besides Boards itself, The Irish Skeptics Society would be happier, I presume, not to be associated with encouragement to break the law.

Turley

Derren Brown is an entertainer. He is a skilled magician.

A mentalism or hypnotism show requires that the performer pretend to have special powers. If the entertainer stated up front that he or she was a magician performing tricks the show would become a guessing game of how it is done. Unlike a magic show, mentalism and hypnotism, offers the audience an explanation of "how it is done." It is a false explanation, but this is what makes the show work.

The fact that some people actually believe a mentalists or hypnotists unbelievable effects are due to some extraordinary power demonstrates how easy it is to fool the public. DB does not have the ability to read minds but he can't admit this to his fans.

I do not see any need for skepticism about the "mind reading power" of the magician/entertainer Derren Brown. It is a very good show but it just a show. One could also be skeptical that a theatrical play is not real because the characters are just acting.

BrendanBurgess

I hadn't really thought much about hypnotism before until this thread. I gather from reading skepdic.com that there is no altered state of consciousness - that it is just a state of high suggestibility. I did not know that so I have learnt something - thanks for pointing it out to me.

Assuming that Derren Brown is not cheating, he has managed to manipulate the suggestibility of his subjects to convince atheists to believe in God. That is in itself an extraordinary skill, although it is not of course a paranormal power. I have never seen Derren Brown claiming paranormal powers.

How does he manipulate people's suggestibility like that? I would have thought that it would have been obvious to the viewers. Could anyone read a book on this area and start converting people from atheism? Could I as a skeptic and atheist be converted by the likes of Derren Brown or by attending an evangelical religious ceremony?

Turley

BrendanBurgess wrote:

How does he manipulate people's suggestibility like that? I would have thought that it would have been obvious to the viewers. Could anyone read a book on this area and start converting people from atheism? Could I as a skeptic and atheist be converted by the likes of Derren Brown or by attending an evangelical religious ceremony?

Brendan-
You have raised some interesting issues. If you would like to know how hypnotism is done Ormond McGill is a leading author on hypnotism. There is a lot literature available if you search online. You might enjoy performing.

It is an interesting point that you thought it would have been obvious to the viewers. I think most people would agree with you. Most people do not think they are easily fooled. But they are, and they are especially vulnerable when they are self-confident.

Everyone that studies the art will not be as successful as Mr. Brown. There are many magicians and not all are as successful. Derren Brown began his career mastering magic (sleight of hand), mentalism and hypontism. He is talented and creative using new methods of combining the three arts.

It is interesting to ponder that masses of people can be led or misled by men. We can be misled to accept things that are false as true, evil as good. We can be misled to war. It is wise to know we can be fooled by men.

It would be prudent to be skeptical of those men we know have fooled us before. If God is the infallible eternal Truth that can neither deceive nor be deceived, Derren Brown is a clue to where men should place their complete trust.
-Turley

Myksyk

Turley wrote:

Derren Brown is an entertainer. He is a skilled magician.

A mentalism or hypnotism show requires that the performer pretend to have special powers. If the entertainer stated up front that he or she was a magician performing tricks the show would become a guessing game of how it is done. Unlike a magic show, mentalism and hypnotism, offers the audience an explanation of "how it is done." It is a false explanation, but this is what makes the show work.

The fact that some people actually believe a mentalists or hypnotists unbelievable effects are due to some extraordinary power demonstrates how easy it is to fool the public. DB does not have the ability to read minds but he can't admit this to his fans.

I do not see any need for skepticism about the "mind reading power" of the magician/entertainer Derren Brown. It is a very good show but it just a show. One could also be skeptical that a theatrical play is not real because the characters are just acting.

Yes ... I think pH was missing these points somehow. The trickery and deceit are part of the show - these are essential tools of the mentalist. Derren Brown does not believe he has supernatural powers but he will play up this possibility with his audience. He is an entertainer as you say and a brilliant one at that.

pH

What point exactly have I missed?

Derren Brown is a magician - pure and simple. He has no powers of Hypnotism, suggestion or Psychology. He performs very standard magic tricks using sleight of hand and technical devices.

No one on Derren's show has been hypnotised or suggested to do anything.

Derren does not need to 'read' someones body language to achieve any of his effects.

Since day 1 of mind control DB has gone out of his way to make his show look like anything but magic.

Under sustained pressure C4 removed his web site from their 'Science' section and placed it back where it belongs under 'Entertainment'

Derren has consisently used Camera edits and Audio dubs not to achieve the effect, but to misinform the Audience as to how the trick takes place.

If Derren presented himself as a straight magician then he would not have a TV career. How many magic shows are on TV these days? Compare this to all the cold-readers, haunted houses, proof positives etc. It's clear to see what a magican need to do to get on TV.

I think we probably agree with all the above. The only difference is the conclusion we draw. You say that all the above if fair for a TV mentalist, I kind of agree!!

Fine if he's doing a TV magic show like Mind Control or Russian Roullette. But when he produces a 'Skeptical' documentary he needs to be open and scientific.

Turley

pH wrote:

Derren has consisently used Camera edits and Audio dubs not to achieve the effect, but to misinform the Audience as to how the trick takes place.

Not unlike television news.

pH wrote:

If Derren presented himself as a straight magician then he would not have a TV career. How many magic shows are on TV these days? Compare this to all the cold-readers, haunted houses, proof positives etc. It's clear to see what a magican need to do to get on TV.

You could look at it another way and ask if a TV news anchor presented hismself straight as an agent of the government he would not have a TV career either. How many CIA agents or MI6 agents are on TV these days? It should also be clear to see what a journalist needs to do to get a top job on TV.
;-)

A CIA agent once told me, "Nothing changes but the uniform, the weapons, and the transportation."

robindch

If God is the infallible eternal Truth that can neither deceive nor be deceived, Derren Brown is a clue to where men should place their complete trust.

Two logical fallacies in one day -- not bad! This one's referred to as 'begging the question' and a definition and example live here. Enjoy!

- robin.

Turley

robindch wrote:

If God is the infallible eternal Truth that can neither deceive nor be deceived, Derren Brown is a clue to where men should place their complete trust.

Two logical fallacies in one day -- not bad! This one's referred to as 'begging the question' and a definition and example live here. Enjoy!

Robin-
The begging the question fallacy requires that the truth of the conclusion is claimed or assumed in the premise. Specifically where is the conclusion, "Derren Brown is a clue to where men should place their complete trust" claimed or assumed within the premise "If God is the infallible eternal Truth that can neither deceive nor be deceived?"
-Turley

robindch

Specifically where is the conclusion, "Derren Brown is a clue to where men should place their complete trust" claimed or assumed within the premise "If God is the infallible eternal Truth that can neither deceive nor be deceived?"

Your final conclusion concerning where men should place their trust requires your premise that god exists as stated, thus begging the question concerning god's existence and his intention. Perhaps the circularity is easier to see if I rephrase it (equivalently, including the implied consequent) as 'If God is the infallible eternal Truth that can neither deceive nor be deceived, then we should trust [which implies a belief in the truth of the verb's object] in God who is the infallible eternal truth that can neither deceive nor be deceived.' Or, put more simply, 'If X is true, then we should believe that X is true'.

QED.

- robin.

Myksyk

pH wrote:

What point exactly have I missed?

Derren Brown is a magician - pure and simple. He has no powers of Hypnotism, suggestion or Psychology.

Of course he has 'powers of suggestion' ... we all do! You can suggest things to people and if you have set up the situation correctly and they are suggestible you may influence them in this way (how do you think the placebo works when used deliberately?). And of course he uses psychology (I'm not sure what you mean by 'powers ...of psychology') ... all magicians are familiar with and utilise fundamental psychological knowledge about areas such as perception, memory, influence, attention, conformity, social pressure, emotion, suggestibility etc etc. As a psychologist I can tell you that magicians I have met often know more psychology and use more psychology than the professionals!! I don't think he is saying that he 'has' unusual or special psychological powers; just that he uses psychology as a fundamental part of his act (he may ham this up to freak the audience out, believing that he has somehow reached into their mind ... but that's standard practice for a mentalist!!). Hypnotism is a different matter and may just fall under suggestion.

Derren has consisently used Camera edits and Audio dubs not to achieve the effect, but to misinform the Audience as to how the trick takes place.

If it's a tv audience he's trying to fool then why not use whatever tricks at his disposal .. if it freaks your mind out then he's done his job!

pH

Of course he has 'powers of suggestion' ...

I was originally using the 'Power of Suggestion' to cover all the NLP rubbish that is talked about.

If you're saying that DB uses any form of suggestion to achieve any of the effects in Messiah then please give me a clear example from Messiah of this.

If it's a tv audience he's trying to fool then why not use whatever tricks at his disposal .. if it freaks your mind out then he's done his job!

Absolutely not!!!!

For TV magic to make any sense there have to be ground rules. If you allow camera trickery then any TV magic instantly becomes meaningless.

- The camera (and audio!) have to be a fair representation of what a live audience member has seen.

- Members of the public have to be members of the public! I.e. the trick would have worked just the same if it has been you there checking the ropes were tight.

If these rules are broken anyone can make elephants vanish, read peoples minds etc. It's just mind numbingly pointless.

Turley

robindch wrote:

Perhaps the circularity is easier to see if I rephrase it (equivalently, including the implied consequent)

My original statement DID NOT include the implied consequent. You rewrote the sentence to satisfy your argument. You have employed two of the Seventeen Techniques For Truth Suppression. Number 4 (creating your own straw man) and number 13 (changing the subject) can be found at
http://www.dcdave.com/article3/991228.html

Turley

pH wrote:

If you're saying that DB uses any form of suggestion to achieve any of the effects in Messiah then please give me a clear example from Messiah of this.

It would be unethical to expose the methods of Derren Brown in this public forum, if anyone here knew his methods. If you are sincerely interested in how he uses suggestion he has written two books for magicians that you could probably purchase online, Pure Effect and Absolute Magic. These books may not contain all of his methods but they are a start.

pH wrote:

For TV magic to make any sense there have to be ground rules. If you allow camera trickery then any TV magic instantly becomes meaningless.

- The camera (and audio!) have to be a fair representation of what a live audience member has seen.

It only becomes meaningless if you admit to camera trickery. Cameras only have to appear to be a fair representation. It is all about appearances. The appearance of reality "is" reality to the television viewer. David Copperfield caused the Statute of Liberty to disappear in NYC on television. Of course he didn't really make it disappear but it looked good. Television is the great deceiver. The public believes what it sees on TV. It becomes reality. Even if something never happened, people will respond, "BUT I SAW IT ON TV!"

I remember a TV program I saw back in July of 1969 that was really out of this world.

robindch

My original statement DID NOT include the implied consequent.

'fraid it did. '...is a clue...' is the implier, with 'trust' (in god) as the implied consequent.

You rewrote the sentence to satisfy your argument.

Nope, I rewrote the sentence in successively clearer and simpler terms, so that you could understand it, as you did (you'll recall) ask me to explain myself

You have employed two of the Seventeen Techniques For Truth Suppression

Sounds absolutely frightful, but if you do take the time to understand my reasoning, you should be able to see that all I did was point out a rather obvious circularity in your argument -- nothing at all to do with supression of truth, but rather a search for it!

BTW, who's this dcdave chappie whom you continually refer to? Are he and you the same guy? Your writing styles (them again!) are different, but that's hardly a clincher.)

Happy to help!

- robin.

Turley

robindch wrote:

if you do take the time to understand my reasoning, you should be able to see that all I did was point out a rather obvious circularity

I'm getting dizzy.