Commemorations

TheAuditor

I see there's been some debate about marches commemorating the hunger strikers. How's about we organise marches commemorating the innocent people that some of the hunger strikers and their buddies murdered? Any thoughts?

bugler

In homes all over N.I I'm sure you will find people commemorating the innocent dead, their families.The villages, or sports clubs, or Orange lodges do also.If you know what innocent people the hunger strikers killed, please tell.

Reactionary thread, designed to provoke emotion.You could probably get a job in the tabloid press.

TheAuditor

Well, why were they in prison then? - For jaywalking?

bugler

Oooo you're a sharp one.Are all paramilitary prisoners in jail for murder,do you think, Auditor?

nesf

This thread has no point, what about all the innocents who were killed by security forces? Couldn't one thus apply blame on them as a catalyst for the vicious hunger striker's serial killings.

I agree with bugler btw

GreenHell

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by TheAuditor:
Well, why were they in prison then? - For jaywalking?</font>

rofl ya the RUC really clamped down on that.

TheAuditor

Yes, the innocent people murdered by the security forces deserve to be commemorated too, but not the terrorist scum who died fighting the so-called "revolution" against the forces of law and order.

pol

I think at this stage, this post is best locked.

nesf

Leave me guess, you're republican?

TheAuditor

I think Bugler's fudging the issue here

nesf

But their revolution can be justified. The "forces of law and order" are in the wrong country. The british have no right to enforce law on the island of ireland. Technically it's the same battle that was fought to get the republic, just the methods have changed.

As for bugler fudging? I think his first response summed up the thread very well. To explain why I'm replying, well I'm bored and in an argumentative mood today

solo1

Perhaps the problem arises with how you would define a 'political prisoner'?

bugler

Fudging? When I first read this threads opening post, the words that leapt to my mind were "boring", "over-simplified" and "rubbish". The innocent people who fell foul of paramilitary violence are remembered, so the thread could have been ended there there and then.You're a black and white kind of guy.The hunger-strikers are murderers and criminals, while on the other side we have the knights in shining armour, the "forces of law and order". Those same righteous fellows who discriminated against one side of the population, and served as the armed wing of those in the ascendancy(in the view of nationalists in the north). Those good decent types who did a fine job on Bloody Sunday.Or set up lawyers to be killed.Or whose soldiers illegally entered into the Republic of Ireland, violating our rights as a nation.Not to mention orchestrating bombings in Dublin and Monaghan, because lets face it, thats what happened.Or maybe those fine upstanding members of the B-Specials who ran amok through Catholic areas with Protestant mobs burning and destroying what they came across.Or it might even be those fine protectors of law and order who sprayed the Divis flats with bullets from their Browning machine gun hitting 9 yr old Patrick Rooney in the head, and leaving his father to scrape his brains off the wall with a spoon.I know, its easy to see who to side with here, isn't it?

You want to portray things in black and white, then fine.Because for every little statement you manage to muster(your black) I will have a response(my white).

Or you could get a clue, and realise that things can't be taken at such shallow value, and look at why things happened the way they did, try and gain some understanding.I realise however, that for someone as lazy as you (for thats what this thread is, a lazy, boring, lacklustre tabloid-esque load of tripe) that may be too much to ask for.

'Holier than thou types' have never been good for anything.They never solve problems or offer anything constructive, let alone offer an interesting opinion.

Is that clear enough for you?

[This message has been edited by bugler (edited 02-08-2001).]

bugler

Yes, Auditor is far too interesting a person to waste his time here.

pol

well put that man!

WhiteWashMan

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by TheAuditor:I see there's been some debate about marches commemorating the hunger strikers.
How's about we organise marches commemorating the innocent people that some of the hunger strikers and their buddies murdered? Any thoughts?</font>

silly.
its not a case of who did what, its a case of remembering people who died for a cause.
you will find people on different sides of different issues commemorate their dead, without the worry of whether or not it was right or wrong.
thats equally a stupid statement as say
'why should we commemorate those who died at omagh'
hows about we raise some money for you to be able to put a simple argument forward in a way that it may be discussed and not be found as inflamitary.
personally i feel that anyone cought up in a conflict, especially the one in the north, should be commemorated. im not perticularly interested in the wrongs or the rights of it. at this stage the issue is far too clouded for this sort of (as bugler says) 'black and white' type post.

TheAuditor

IT IS black and white - if there's marches for the terrorist scum then why not for the people they murdered? I mean, it's not as if they were fighting for any LEGITIMATE cause, as has been suggested, for even in their OWN community in the North they had a minority of support during the troubles (Sinn Fein polled 10% of the vote in the 1994 Euro Elections up north)

bugler

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by TheAuditor:
IT IS black and white - if there's marches for the terrorist scum then why not for the people they murdered?</font>

Go organise some then.I'm sure you're really really concerned about the innocents.Oh no, you actually couldn't give a shít and like using their deaths as a stick to beat SF with.Look at my very first post as regards this regurgitation.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I mean, it's not as if they were fighting for any LEGITIMATE cause, as has been suggested, for even in their OWN community in the North they had a minority of support during the troubles (Sinn Fein polled 10% of the vote in the 1994 Euro Elections up north)</font>

Of course you're right.Things were so fine and dandy in the great state that was Northern Ireland, until the IRA came along and started ruining everything! I think it's safe to say you weren't resident in affected areas of Northern Ireland during the troubles. You were no doubt pontificating about those evilfolk up there killing each other, and how if they were only like us things would be ok.And yes the Hunger Strikers were such pariahs and had no just cause, this was illustrated by Bobby Sands being elected as an MP.And a relatively small militant group managed to survive for 30 yrs against one of the most powerful armies in the world despite the fact that they had like no support from the community.Oh no wait, you're talking shíte again! SF are now the biggest Nationalist party in the North, I presume you think that the voting populace is very forgiving then, seeing as they wouldn't touch them with a bargepole a few years ago.

People like you, both North and South, are the biggest threat to peace in Northern Ireland.Finally, I don't think you registered on these boards just to post about this, now did you? If you did you're a worse case than I thought.Care to reveal your true identity? I think I know anyway.

Quote of the week:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by TheAuditor:
IT IS black and white</font>

There is no smoke without fire.And no civil unrest without cause.

TheAuditor

Bugler, that's horse****. Care to justify the Warrington Bombing, where your heroes murdered two boys aged 9 and 12?

Clintons Cat

Auditer have you looked into the accounts of Bloody Sunday?
I suggest you read Eye Witness Bloody Sunday by Don Mullen, Testements of ordinary people caught up in the violence.Maybe then you will realise the world is not Black and white or Goodies versus Baddies.Noble Authorities versus Terrorist Scum.
Have you any notion of what the hunger strikers were attempting to achieve or for that matter what they were imprisoned for?Do you even know why Roy Hattersly signed the order to commit British Military forces to Ulster?Have you heard of internment?Do you understand the basic tenets of terrorism?

Personally i hope both communities can reconcile themselves to their Bloody Past and move on together.As for commemorations well why not? In Britain we commemorate the dead of the two world wars of BOTH SIDES on rememberence day or had you forgoten?

bugler

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Care to justify the Warrington Bombing, where your heroes murdered two boys aged 9 and 12? </font>

Don't tell me who my heroes are you ignorant dimwit.I'm not here to justify any acts of violence.If you had the reading level of an 11 yr old you could see that, go on try it, read through the thread again.Tell me where I have expressed support for bombings etc.I'm not an IRA supporter, and I don't view the IRA as my heroes.I'd ask for an apology but I know you wouldn't give it anyway.I take exception to people telling me who and what I support.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I'm living in London and when I walk down Whitehall I see memorials to "The Glorious Dead" and statues of soldiers in the British Army. I don't recall seeing a statue of someone in the Waffen SS on Westminster Bridge Street, perhaps you can tell me where the memorial to the Wehrmacht is. </font>

Oh dear.Whitehall is in England.So is Westminster Bridge.The Waffen SS were German. You know, from Germany. Clintons statement was referring to the fact that there are two sides to the conflict in the North, those who consider themselves Irish/Nationalists, and those who consider themselves British/Unionist.Stop talking tripe.In Germany there are war memorials for Germans, in America there are war memorials for those killed in the US forces.Are you starting to see a pattern now? I suppose you're wondering why there are no memorials to the Viet Cong in the USA! Then again I suppose you think there are no memorials to the VC anywhere.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I never said that the British were holier than though, indeed the scum who massacred innocent civilians on Bloody Sunday should be sent to prison. I believe in Justice, not summary executions, as people like Bugler seem to warm to. There is no excuse for murder, be it state-sponsored or carried out by sectarian Marxist tossers acting against the wishes of the people of the State.</font>

This is great.You truly are the only decent person alive you know? If only everyone was like you.Where did those people go wrong in life.Lock them up and throw away the key, so decent folk like you are the only ones left!
And again, don't tell me what I support, so far you have accussed me of being an IRA worshipper, and supporter of summary executions, even though I have given you no reason to assume so, and I am neither.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I think the Pro-IRA members of this forum are attempting to distract attention away from the original post by claiming without any grounds that I am some sort of West Brit anglophile. </font>

I haven't seen a "Pro-IRA"(there you go again, proving your ignorance) member of note here in quite a while.I think this forum has very many people who understand that there were reasons for what happened in the North, and seen as they didn't have to put up with it or don't really have experience of such situations they won't be too judgemental.Such humility escapes you, however.The original post was a load of rubbish, as I have stated throughout and most seem to agree.Pure trolling, in my opinion.


Yuor closing few paragraphs are hardly worthy of any attention, except for the fact that you libelled me again, and you used a very poor example to claim non-violence should be used.I assume, you think that us Irish should never have fought for independence throughout the centuries, but merely have rolled over and kept pleading peacefully for freedom.I also assume you think that no-one should have opposed the Nazis in WW2, but have merely tried to reason with them, eventually the message would get through, right? You use the example of someone from a differnet culture and society, and different circumstances, and try applying it to the North, that won't fly.Also, I'm sure if people were all as decent as you they would have just kept quiet and suffered in silence hoping they'd be listened to.

[Sarcasm] I really can't wait for your next post.I'm sure it will really interesting and surprise me with its inoovative arguments and well thought out witticisms[/Sarcasm]

More likely it will be more slurs against me and "I am right and good and everyone else is evil" type rants.Learn how to debate properly, or at least how to make yourself look like something other than an ignorant idiot.

Clintons Cat

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">"Commemorate the war dead on BOTH sides" Clinton, that's rubbish. </font>

ok dont beleive me try this site
http://www.geocities.com/traditions_uk/poppyday.html

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">This fund is now administered by the Royal British Legion and supports ex-servicemen and their dependents, and the Poppy Appeal continues to raise funds for this cause by selling small paper or fabric poppies, which are worn in November by the vast majority of the British public to signify their support and as a memorial to the victims of all wars.</font>

Or perhaps this site http://www.thisislondinium.com/members/london/home.nsf/f3be101710d0da6b802569b4005a42cd/441d501104b0e27c802569b600433b3f!OpenDocument

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Wreaths of 'Flanders poppies' are laid out at war memorials including the Cenotaph to remember those who lost their lives during both World Wars </font>

not the British dead,or the commonwealth dead,or those who fought on the british side dead ,which incidently included many irish catholics.who fought in both world wars
Just The Dead.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I never said that the British were holier than though, indeed the scum who massacred innocent civilians on Bloody Sunday should be sent to prison. </font>

Then you will be aware of the findings of Widgery tribunal at the time that exonerated the British Military of all wrong doing then?
to quote Bishop Edward Daly "What really made Bloody Sunday so Obsene was the fact that people afterwards at the highest level of British Justice Justified it"
You know that in return for giving evidence to the second inquiry into bloody sunday the soldiers giving evidence were granted amnesty from criminal proceedings and annoniminty from civil proceedings.No one is going to face prison over bloody sunday,you knew that though didnt you?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I said I'm working in London for the summer, and when I see the Ealing Broadway bombing </font>

Welcome to London.
back in the early nineties,at the hieght of the last IRA bombing campaign which culminated with the Baltic Exchange bomb i was working in a wimpy bar at 172 Oxford Street London,which was blown up by a parcel bomb in a previous IRA campaign.Journeys home on the tube were frequently interupted by Bomb scares and evacuations from work were frequent.Needless to say management took unattended baggage as a serious problem,
<except for BB who would check if there was a bomb in an unattended shoe box by opening it>But so what? get with the program,learn to duck.Or maybe just maybe start appreciating the value of the peace process{/b]
I wont ask you if you can diffrentiate between the Real IRA and IRA/SF or for that matter UVF and The UFF.

OConnor

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by TheAuditor:
the forces of law and order.</font>

The forces of Occupation , in IRA parlance
Hey the guy may be a biggot, but i like his nick (you get it From the Discworlde Novels?)
btw, i too , agree with Bugler (he da' man)

TheAuditor

"Commemorate the war dead on BOTH sides" Clinton, that's rubbish. I'm living in London and when I walk down Whitehall I see memorials to "The Glorious Dead" and statues of soldiers in the British Army. I don't recall seeing a statue of someone in the Waffen SS on Westminster Bridge Street, perhaps you can tell me where the memorial to the Wehrmacht is.

I never said that the British were holier than though, indeed the scum who massacred innocent civilians on Bloody Sunday should be sent to prison. I believe in Justice, not summary executions, as people like Bugler seem to warm to. There is no excuse for murder, be it state-sponsored or carried out by sectarian Marxist tossers acting against the wishes of the people of the State.

The security forces must share some of the blame. The incidents such as internment, Bloody Sunday, Garvaghy Road and so on were completely unacceptable.

I think the Pro-IRA members of this forum are attempting to distract attention away from the original post by claiming without any grounds that I am some sort of West Brit anglophile.

I believe that if the Republican movement had followed the example of Mahatma Gandhi and avoided violence, despite the intimidation (such as the massacre of hundreds of people during the Salt Riots in India), keeping to Civil Rights marches and suchlike then the North would be a much better place, with a few thousand extra people LIVING in it today that aren't.

As I said I'm working in London for the summer, and when I see the Ealing Broadway bombing then I challenge Bugler and his IRA friends to justify placing a bomb outside a tube station.

I suppose he'll say that London Underground is an instrument of British Fascist Imperialism or some other bilge.

TheAuditor

Bugler you cretin, Clinton's Cat said that the British commemorate the dead on both sides of the 2 world wars. I sarcastically enquired as to where the Wehrmacht memorial in London was as I don't really see much indication that this is true. I am fully aware that the Wehrmacht were German, I got an A in both Junior and Leaving Certificate History but then of course I am purely ignorant of such facts.

As regards the person who posted about the immunity from prosecution of the paratroops who murdered innocent civilians on Bloody Sunday, well all I can say is that they should not be above the law and they deserve custodial sentences for their heinous crimes.

However once again we see Bugler and his chums fudge the issue. I never made any inference in my original post about any meting out of justice to anyone, merely I enquired should there be marches commemorating the innocent victims of the troubles.

Instead of people giving me reasons for or against my proposal I have all these idiots trying to justify terrorism, be it state-sponsored or otherwise. I believe that the provos, loyalists and the security forces all share collective responsibility for what went on. There can be no justification for what happened, and before our Republican revisionists start ranting again I refer you to my post about non-violent forms of resistance.

I challenge those of you who attempt to excuse the barbaric attrocities of the men of violence to give me logical reasons why non-violent methods would NOT have been preferable to the bomb and the bullet, and please no idiotic comments about Loyalists rampaging through Catholic areas, look at pro-independence East Timor if you want to see examples of mobs rampaging through other people's land, what happened in the North was inexcusable but pales in comparison (although I'm not saying it's insignificant, indeed it is not) with some of the other appaling conflicts of the world such as in the Sudan, where the SPLA (Sudanese People's Liberation Army for the uninformed) fight to save the Christian people of the south from being exterminated by the Islamic military Junta leading the country.

My question is really quite simple, and I ask for a simple, logical, coherent, non-emotional response from people --> would you agree, that given the multitude of marches commemorating the paramilitary dead, that perhaps the time is right for us to march in memory of the innocent victims of the troubles?

Perhaps such a march should be made by the relatives of the victims to Stormont to let the idiot politicians up there see the consequences of democracy failing the people.

Doc

To be honest I don’t know enough about ether side of the arguments in Northern Ireland and I think most of the people posting here don’t ether.
This is why I think this topic should end no ones point of view is educated enough and any post you put up here will aggravate someone.
The why I see it the hunger strikers probably did brake the law and deserved to be in prison. They protested the fact that they stopped being treated as political prisoners and the British government refused to give in to them to allow them to be treated as they once where despite the fact one of them was elected into government this resulted in there deaths. Tragedies on both sides but let it end at that nothing good can come from going on about it.

Chaos-Engine

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by nesf:
But their revolution can be justified. The "forces of law and order" are in the wrong country. The british have no right to enforce law on the island of ireland. Technically it's the same battle that was fought to get the republic, just the methods have changed.
B]</font>

I think u r forgetting what government teh MAJORITY of the ppl in NI want... Democracy is a ***** sometimes... I u want to change it try deporting all the Unionists... ffs. The only reason i take an interest in the north is because of Civil Rights and the lack of them... Once ppl r treated like ppl then things can get back to normal

---

"Information is Ammunition"
Choas Engine
Email: choas@netshop.ie
ICQ: 34896460

bugler

I don't believe anyone but you thinks anyone here is trying to justify the violence from the Republican movement during the troubles. Like it or not, it had its reasons, and its creators.Unfortunately, your rabid anti-republicanism has also left you with a persecution complex.Anyone who disagrees with you is "Pro-IRA", and I'm a supporter of summary executions who looks on the IRA as heroes. Meanwhile we have you in the midst of all "Bugler and his chums", standing alone, the last decent law abiding fellow left.Aloft on your moral high horse, boring everyone to tears.

You have no idea of the reality of what Catholics faced in N.I at the beginning of the Troubles.Discrimination in housing, in jobs, and not even to mention facing political apartheid due to gerry-mandering, ensuring that Protestants retained control of the institutions that matter.Interesting that you raise the issue of loyalist violence.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">and please no idiotic comments about Loyalists rampaging through Catholic areas, look at pro-independence East Timor if you want to see examples of mobs rampaging through other people's land, what happened in the North was inexcusable but pales in comparison (although I'm not saying it's insignificant, indeed it is not) </font>

There kids, is a lesson on how to say one thing, and then contradict it entirely in the same paragraph.Also known as trying to cover your own arsé.We are told that yes there was loyalists rampaging through Catholic areas,and yes it was significant, but it wasn't as bad as in other places, so we shouldn't pay too much heed to it.Well sorry, but I'm going to insist on making some 'idiotic comments' here.

Loyalists grew uneasy at what they saw as the potential for reform under T O'Neill, I mean evening things up just wouldn't do.

Fact 1: The 1st person to be killed in the N.I troubles was a Catholic, killed by the UVF.

Fact2: The 2nd person to be killed in the N.I troubles was a Catholic, killed by the UVF.

Fact3: The 3rd person to be killed in the N.I troubles was a Protestant, killed by the UVF.

Fact4 and I think I've gone on far enough) The 5th person to be killed in the N.I troubles was a Catholic, who died after a police baton charge.The inquest found he had been a bystander in a riot situation.


Now, when we couple these few facts, with the discriminatory nature in general of the N.I state, I find it hard to rebuke the Nationalist community for reacting.Not only have the proposed reforms that the Catholics need/wanted come in for flak(eventually fatal as it turned out, O'Neill got the boot), but now the community faces loyalist paramilitary killings.As for the rioting through Catholic areas, the forces of law and order, namely the B-Specials were very effective, at helping the rioters. Now I know, I know, if we were all as decent as you, we'd have just turned the other cheek, and taken our punishment.Does the phrase 'Croppy lie down!' mean anything to you?

Absolute toss.If the laws and the government that enforces them has no respect for your human rights, nevermind your entitlements under these same laws you should be obeying, you should not feel obliged to stay peaceful.And if you are also faced with violence along with this denial of rights, then resorting to violence is almost inevitable, and in my opinion understandable.
Peaceful protest is an ideal most often espoused by comfortable well bred types, who have probably never faced anything more discriminatory than being stopped from entering a club by the bouncers because they were too drunk.For as the people of Kosovo have learned, peaceful protest often yields little or no results.They campaigned peacefully for 10 yrs for a return of their autonomy, and failed.They resorted to violence for a couple of years, and in all likelihood they will have their own nation very soon, if they don;t already have it.

In conclusion, its very easy to sing the praises of peaceful means when the closest you have been to civil strife is on the TV, some get closer and still hold their beliefs.Very many however, resort to violence.I don't like it, but it is understandable and often necessary.I'm as critical of the way the IRA has conducted itself as anyone over the last quarter of a century, but the souring of the conflict and the methods used are another story.

As for your continued harping on about organising these marches,as I have said above repeatedly, I do not think there is any demand for it.Everyone feels sympathy for them, at a local and personal level they are remembered.The reason for marches in honour of the hunger strikers et al is that they represent ideals, which others admire and aspire to, whether we like it or not. The innocent victims, do not represent anything mostly, except misfortune in very many cases, the horrors of conflict, and how the reticence of those in positions of power and privilege to change things for the greater good can lead to deaths.

TheAuditor

Gandhi and his followers didn't fire a single bullet but got independence for what was at the time the most populous country on earth. If he could do that then I think that the tiny minority of Northerners (and it was a tiny minority, a few thousand at any one time at most) who took up the gun shouldn't have.

What the B-specials and loyalist paramilitaries did was unacceptable, and I feel that perhaps the north of Ireland should not be left to govern itself until the current political parties which are based on partisan (Unionist and Nationalist) lines are disbanded and ones based on cross-community, ideological parties are the only ones left.

I think that Unionist bashing is unhelpful as it's over-simplistic. Many Unionists were and are supporting of equal rights for Nationalists. As regards Bugler's post that I was clouded by my opposition to Physical Force Nationalism, well all I can say is that I can't be clouded by it as I am resolutely opposed to what the other side did as well.

It might have escaped your attention Bugler, but I amn't opposed to the PIRA exclusively, merely totally opposed to ALL enemies of democracy, and their apologists like you.

TheAuditor

Today the family of Jean McConville, mother of 6, murdered by the PIRA will go to Louth to try once more to locate her remains. Jean was a Protestant woman married to a Catholic. Her only "crime", as the PIRA saw it, was to tend to a dying British soldier who had been shot by the Provos. This act of human kindness resulted in 6 children losing their mother. I feel that we should remember such things, and not try to seek justification for the actions of terrorists. Bugler, if a British soldier was shot outside your house would you leave him to die alone or would you tend to him/her? This is not a political matter. It is simply a matter of compassion and humanity. Any group of people that would murder a mother for helping a dying man are scum, plain and simple. I feel that commemorating these terrorists is a matter for all of us to decide. Surely those of us with humanity would feel that we should educate people of the consequences of the actions of men of violence, and Commemorate the innocent victims of the Troubles.

GreenHell

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by TheAuditor:
I see there's been some debate about marches commemorating the hunger strikers. How's about we organise marches commemorating the innocent people that some of the hunger strikers and their buddies murdered? Any thoughts?</font>

Well instead of getting involved in the usual rhetoric above I think I'll just give my opinion of the question first asked.

Do you believe that organising more marchs and commemorations is going to make northern Ireland any less tense. It is people who aren't willing to forget the past are at this very moment trying to claw NI back to the days of the troubles. Just for a sec imagine what Northern Ireland would be like without all the biggotted *******s who stir up nationalist and unionist passions.

bugler

Well seen as you're ignoring my protestations about what you label me as I don't know if it's worth saying, but I'm neither an IRA apologist nor supporter.I merely seek to show that the troubles had their causes and roots, and unfortunately those roots were in the unfair and discriminatory nature of the Northern Irish state.I don't necessarily view the Ghandhi comparison with too much importance, it was a different era, different country, different problem.The poor of India aren't exactly laughing it up now either, and their caste system is still in place.

I despair at your continuance at pulling at emotional strings to try and gain leverage, I could merely reply stating the case of an unarmed man getting shot in his van by the British army and ask you if he deserved to die? The answers will be the same.It's boring and irrelevant.

As for your questions about my humanity or compassion, yes of course I would help.My best friend is English and a next door neighbour who I knew quite well growing up is an officer in the British Army.I don't view them as evil occupiers.However, using one example(or even several) is not a valid case for judging an organisation.Otherwise, I could merely judge the British army on Bloody Sunday and the Unionist community on their participation in gerry mandering, institutional discrimination or their general support of internment.