Derren Brown: Messiah

Jonny Arson

What did you think about Derren Brown: Messiah on channel 4 last night? Thought provoking or what!

Zillah

I don't know what the show was about, but Derren Brown himself maintains that there is no magic in what he does, he insists that he's just a very skilled person.

But feel free to discuss the show, as I said I didn't see it.

stormkeeper

I've seen him on TV quite a few times, namely RTE 2, or that was someone else, but I'm very impressed by what that person could do...

stevenmu

I missed the show, but I'm usually reall impressed by his stuff, if anyone knows if there's a repeat on at some stage coul they let me know ?

Chinafoot

yea i didnt see it myself but from what i have seen hes very talented.
our psychology lecturer last year reckoned its all basic cognitive psychology....derren brown is just very very skilled in it.

certainly entertaining if nothing else

GuanYin

Not sure this is suited in paranormal.

Derren Brown is a very very skilled behavioural and cognative psychologist. HE has never clained to be anything else.

If there is any tenuative link between the paranormal and Derren Brown, its perhaps that his exploitation of the subconcious, may point the way to what is actually behind certain paranormal events (ie. just subconcious perception)

Chad ghostal

I saw it arlight, thought it was extremely interesting...
although i thought it was extremely cruel that he did the reading of the dead thing...
I thought whole thing was extremely impressive.
The section where he changed the beliefs of the people in the room, was very unnerving.. the girl was nearly crying..

very interesting show..

Zillah

Chad ghostal wrote:

The section where he changed the beliefs of the people in the room, was very unnerving.. the girl was nearly crying..

very interesting show..

Must...see...evil magic man...

stevenmu

syke wrote:

Not sure this is suited in paranormal.

Derren Brown is a very very skilled behavioural and cognative psychologist. HE has never clained to be anything else.

If there is any tenuative link between the paranormal and Derren Brown, its perhaps that his exploitation of the subconcious, may point the way to what is actually behind certain paranormal events (ie. just subconcious perception)

There have been some things he's done that would class as paranormal, altough I can't remember exactly how he described them.

In his first TV series (I think), he demonstrated synchronicity. He would get a volunteer to sit in front of him facing away, with their hands on their legs. He would then raise his hand and the volunteers hand would raise at the same time. In the most recent series he did a trick where he got a volunteer to look out a window, focus on a random pedestrian and say 'stop'. The ped would then stop without knowing why, altough their could have been some external que that we couldn't see.

I think regarding synchronicity he claimed that it wasn't paranormal, it was a known but unexplained phenomenon. Depends on what you count as being paranormal I suppose, to me it definitly is.

humanji

Derren Brown himself claims that everything he does is illusion. And sometimes you can see how he does it. That thing stevenmu mentioned about looknig at someone out a window was quite simple. The person had a bright red hood and the gril looking out the window was drawn to the colour. It's simply mind manipulation and logic, though there really is no doubting that Brown is a genius at what he does.

Stark

Interestingly enough there was a guy on the other night on RTE2 (not sure if it was Darren or not). He was carrying out this "trick". I was listening carefully for any psychological tricks. So I was listening and I heard "Right so pick up the can of mace and slip it into your belt behind your back. Pick up the knife and put it in your right pocket. Pick up the gun and put it in your left pocket". Then he turned around and proceeded to guess that "the mace is in the belt behind your pack, the knife is in your right pocket and the gun is in your left pocket". The people on TV looked amazed, at which point I blurted out "what a load of crap, he knew they were there because that's where he told him to put them". Everybody in the room with me then told me he said no such thing and the instructions only specified to pick up the objects not where to put them.

Which got me thinking, could he have inserted some kind of hypnotic command at one point which I missed but everyone heard which would cause people to forget the instructions and make it look like he could read the guy's mind? All the other tricks the guy did looked like they'd be based on similar principles because all the other tricks revolved around people picking objects that he intended them to pick.

stevenmu

Or maybe you clairaudient and heard his thoughts in your head and just assumed it was him talking

It would have been interesting to see how he did that, the way you describe it anyway it sounds way too blatant to fool everyone.

stevenmu

jomanji wrote:

That thing stevenmu mentioned about looknig at someone out a window was quite simple. The person had a bright red hood and the gril looking out the window was drawn to the colour.

And presumably she (with the red hood) was in on it, altough he does say that he doesn't do any of that either.

Oryx

A magician will say whatever he likes but he wont give the game away. Didnt this guy do some magic bullet trick on one of the channel isles last year, claiming to use live ammo, but when they checked his customs clearance he hadnt brought any live ammo in? Maybe someone else knows about this too? I havent seen his recent show, but I saw an earlier one, and it really left you scratching your head.

GuanYin

KatieK wrote:

A magician will say whatever he likes but he wont give the game away. Didnt this guy do some magic bullet trick on one of the channel isles last year, claiming to use live ammo, but when they checked his customs clearance he hadnt brought any live ammo in? Maybe someone else knows about this too? I havent seen his recent show, but I saw an earlier one, and it really left you scratching your head.

It was Russian roulette and it was in the channel isles because the UK mainland had firearms laws preventing the stunt.

They had a quatermaster bring in the guns and ammo as far as I remember and it wasn't really so much a trick about the gun as guessing the right chamber, which he did (sorta).

stevenmu

It was repeated on E4 last night and I caught the end of it, the bits where he pretended to be an alien abductee who could tell people's medical history and a medium who could get messages from the dead. I can see ways of doing the medical history part but the mediumship part was amazing. He was using 'cold readings' which I've heard of, and knew they could be convincing but the details he was getting were amazing, very precise. It's actually much easier to believe that he's psychic in some way than to believe it was a trick, even though he admits that it is.

Sandy2004

I watched the 5 tricks/endorsements last night on "The Messiah"- Mediumship, Christian Faith, Physchic Drawing, Dream Catching, Guessing medical conditions etc and thought it was great viewing: what I didn't think was great was the fact that he dismissed everything methaphysical. I do believe he has some talents - hypnotist, physchic, magician etc. If you can guess exactly what a person has dreamt about as well as correctly guessing names of dead relatives first time on meeting, you have been given a gift - except it don't dismiss it!

Splash

I just want to know how he does it! I totally don`t in ghosts or gods or any of that crap, but I`d like to know how he can guess the names so accurately

Fobia

Although Derren Brown's tricks are thought provoking and interesting to watch, I don't really believe he is a "very very skilled behavioural and cognative psychologist". He is very skilled at what he does, yes, he is an intelligent man no doubt.....but some things have led me to think that not all of what he says is the truth...

I'm not great at explaining things, so I'll leave to to Simon Singh....the following are some interesting pieces written on Derren if nothing else;

http://www.simonsingh.net/Derren_Brown_Article.html

http://www.simonsingh.net/Derren_FAQ.html

Fobia.

[Jackass]

I have seen pretty much all derren brownes projects on TV, or at least all i've heard of, and without a doubt he is one of the most facenating performers out there! I have a great interest in what he does, and i would love to train in something like that, but i do believe it is a combination of psycological trickery to lead people, power of suggestion, hypnotisim, confusing people, talking fast, and showman ship thrown in to amaze us....some "tricks" (with want for a better word) i do find difficult to believe, for example, on his series before messiah, i don't recall the name, he would start the programme showing somebody answering a public phone, and then falling to the ground asleep almost instantly...you dont hear what he sais or what he does on te other end of the phone, but that is what i would class as his "showman ship"..start with something mind blowing like that, although it is probably fake. Another one i thought was possibly fake is when he manages to convince a man he has in a darkend room (bright enough to see infront of you though) that he (derren) is invisible by using a psycological build up ...He tells the man that when he (derren) re-enters the room he will be coverd by a black cloak, but when he removes the cloak the man will see straight through him... then leaves the room, re-enters coverd in a blake cloak (which the man can see) but as he takes off the cloak the man apparntly cant see him and derren makes a doll dance on a table which freaks the "victim" out because he cant see derren or his hands moving it (obviously we at home can see derren), but i suppose that could be hypnotisim. My favourite trick was when he went to the dog races and used losing tickets to claim money by using a string of suggestion and confusion methods to make the cashier payout!! You have to see it to know what im talking about, but the last one at least, there is no doubt in my mind is real!!
Im going to see him in the olimpia with my bro in march i think it is, (my bro is bringin me cause he knows i love that stuff, so i dont kow the dates off hand ) where i plan to be picked to go on stage or have a trick done on me, prob every1 else going too is planning that 2 , i dont know if its sold out...if not i would strongly recommend you check it out!! I'll post back aftr i go and let u know how i got on, and tell ya how good it was!!!!

stevenmu

Fobia wrote:

I'm not great at explaining things, so I'll leave to to Simon Singh....the following are some interesting pieces written on Derren if nothing else;

http://www.simonsingh.net/Derren_Brown_Article.html

http://www.simonsingh.net/Derren_FAQ.html

Fobia.

It's amazing how people who are sceptical about many things can read something by another sceptic and just accept it all at face value. As Derren said at the end of Messiah, whether people believe in the paranormal or are sceptical they invariably choose to believe whatever they want to believe.

I didn't see the poker trick Simon Singh describes but I did see a similar one where he would put envelopes on a table with money in one of them. He would then let the subject choose an envelope and each time somehow convinced the subject to not choose the one with the money in it. There are well known magic tricks to do this but they're all ruled out by the fact that each time he had the subject open the envelopes to see which had the money.

He has also done the 'not able to lift someone' trick a few times that I've seen, where the person trying to lift has stood right against the person to be lifted. I know the trick using the lever effect and I'm pretty sure I would have spotted it.

I actually know how many of his tricks are done (not that I can do them myself), and generally they use little phscyhological tricks, that most of us are already aware of but just don't see the application of them.

yulius

When you watch the beginning of "messiah", he says that he will use his knowledge as a psychologists, magician, shaman etc... to get endorsement from the 5 category of people.

So, NO!!, he did not only use psychological tricks but also supernatural powers to do his stunts. And saying this, he is just like the psychics he is trying to fool!! Both the ones in the school and the one who talks to the dead.

And also, in messiah, the Christian minister merely said that no one has ever done converting the way Derren does. He did not say that Derren brown is a truly DIVINELY gifted person to be able to convert people just by touching them. Why?? Because, the Christian priest is not a supernatural being, he has NO WAY of knowing whether Derren brown is only acting as a Christian. I believe, like all Christians, the minister is not gifted in for spotting scam artists. But, if I am the minister, I'd notice it immediately coz he never once use the name Jesus in his speech and is somewhat unchristian in his demonstration, just my feelings. But I can understand why the priest didn't say "you're faking it!!" Because he knows that only God knows for sure, the priest himself is just a normal human. And he is not allowed to judge. He doesn't want to offend the people who might be watching the video or Derren brown himself. Christians are known to do it the soft, gentle and non-judgmental way. But carefully listen to the way the priest spoke and you can sense that he is reluctant to say that Derren brown's demonstration is "approvable". Kinda like you are beautiful to someone who is not beautiful. As a true Christian, you just try not to hurt another's feelings, or you'll be in trouble with God.

In another one of his shows, derren said that he can influence people's minds to move things aroung the ouija board. Ok... that may be doable, but he didn't explain how he moved the ball up to the ceiling. I don't think there is a string, coz if there is, it would be noticed when the light was on.

And for another one of his show where he pierced a needle trhough a boy's hand but the boy can't feel a thing. He said that the effect is "perhaps" like when you got cut with a knife when cutting vegetable. Hmm, the latter doesn't have the cut person realizing that he was cut, but what derren did was make the hand DEAD!!

By the way, Simon Singh's challenge to make derren read his mind is stupid. Derren can surely read it psychologically or if the thing concerns his childhood, Derren can use his shaman companion "a spirit" to tell him what is going on in Simon's childhood. Many shaman's and medium can do that with the help of a spirit. But ask derren to tell the future and he won't be able to. But his spirits have the ability to make it happen though.

I wouldn't deny that his shows are interesting, but he uses Spirits as a shaman. there is actually another performer known as avalon or something like that who performs magic like derren brown but didn't relate what they are doing as psychological but honestly states it as spiritual. They are fans of ouija board too... I'll post again if I remember their name. the performers is a black woman and a white man.

aphex™

yulius wrote:

I wouldn't deny that his shows are interesting, but he uses Spirits as a shaman.

No, he is just a mind magician (a mentalist). He has written several books, one which deals with that topic. They're called "pure effect" and "absolute magic". One deals with traditional magic. Cant remember which.

Maybe u should read one of them.

SkepticOne

I missed the Messiah show, but I've seen some of the other stuff including the Russian Roulette programme. I think the reason Brown is so intriguing to people is that he says that he is merely using psychological techniques in his illusions yet seems to go beyond what could plausibly be shows using these techniques in his shows.

The audience are thus challanged to explain what he is doing in normal psychological terms, but always fall short. The only other alternative, then, is that Darran Brown must be psychic. Of course there are other explanations, but he has presented things in such a way that the audience do not consider these other alternatives.