Barging into queues in Sandyford

fenris

Does anybody know why after sitting a double line of traffic for 45 minutes, somebody would allow a gob****e who has whizzed down the outside, past a huge tailback, to barge in ahead of them ?

Am I the only one we finds this hugely annoying ?

fletch

fenris wrote:

Does anybody know why after sitting a double line of traffic for 45 minutes, somebody would allow a gob****e who has whizzed down the outside, past a huge tailback, to barge in ahead of them ?

Am I the only one we finds this hugely annoying ?

I find this REALLY annoying!!! But then again, we do have to remember that we are all human and from time to time make mistakes.....but I know the sort you are talking about who fly up the outside and at the last second try bully their way into the inside lane

weehamster

Its simple. I dont let them in at all and dont care if they start beeping their horn at me for the next few min's.
Wait in line like the rest of us. :mad:

daymobrew

You are not the only one who finds this annoying.
Possible explanations (not excuses):
- Queue jumper is aggressive and forces their car into a position where other driver has to let them in so as not to have their car damaged.
- Other (inattentive) driver didn't realise that queue jumper is a queue jumper and thinks that they are being nice.

Alun

It depends on the situation. If it's a case where one lane is temporarily blocked , say for roadworks, then I can't see any sane reason why all available roadspace shouldn't be used right up to the point at which the lane disappears, rather than some arbitrary distance before the obstruction. If people just did this, there wouldn't be a free outside lane for people to whizz up, and the whole queue would be shorter. Add the rule that applies in some other countries where you are expected to merge in turn, and we could get rid of a lot of the frustration and anger that occurs in such situations.

If, on the other hand, it's a queue, say, to turn left, and somebody storms up the straight ahead lane and then tries to barge in, it could be someone just chancing it, or just a genuine mistake from someone who doesn't know the area. I mean, it isn't exactly uncommon for lane indications to either be non-present, incorrect, or invisible in this country is it?

weehamster

Alun wrote:

It depends on the situation. If it's a case where one lane is temporarily blocked , say for roadworks, then I can't see any sane reason why all available roadspace shouldn't be used right up to the point at which the lane disappears, rather than some arbitrary distance before the obstruction. If people just did this, there wouldn't be a free outside lane for people to whizz up, and the whole queue would be shorter. Add the rule that applies in some other countries where you are expected to merge in turn, and we could get rid of a lot of the frustration and anger that occurs in such situations.

If, on the other hand, it's a queue, say, to turn left, and somebody storms up the straight ahead lane and then tries to barge in, it could be someone just chancing it, or just a genuine mistake from someone who doesn't know the area. I mean, it isn't exactly uncommon for lane indications to either be non-present, incorrect, or invisible in this country is it?

While I do understand your valid point, I have to totally disagree. Here’s an example.

My brother-in-law worked in the Aer Core in Baldonnell and every day from Tallaght he'd cycle to and from work along the Naas Road. He wore a reflector belt and a helmet. As usual with this road there was long tailbacks, but this didn’t bother him as he was cycling in the hard shoulder.

Then one evening when he was cycling home in the hard shoulder, approaching a junction when a car came up behind and hit him, sending him flying. He suffered major injuries including brain damage (even though he a bike helmet on him) He died a couple of days later, leaving his wife and 3 kids, family and friends behind.

When the Garda asked the driver why he was in the hard shoulder, he said that he couldn’t wait in the lane any longer and so drove on the hard shoulder. He though this would be ok as he was turning off the road at a junction ahead.

As you can see, this is a classic example of what impatience can do.

Alun

weehamster wrote:

While I do understand your valid point, I have to totally disagree. Here’s an example.

My brother-in-law worked in the Aer Core in Baldonnell and every day from Tallaght he'd cycle to and from work along the Naas Road. He wore a reflector belt and a helmet. As usual with this road there was long tailbacks, but this didn’t bother him as he was cycling in the hard shoulder.

Then one evening when he was cycling home in the hard shoulder, approaching a junction when a car came up behind and hit him, sending him flying. He suffered major injuries including brain damage (even though he a bike helmet on him) He died a couple of days later, leaving his wife and 3 kids, family and friends behind.

When the Garda asked the driver why he was in the hard shoulder, he said that he couldn’t wait in the lane any longer and so drove on the hard shoulder. He though this would be ok as he was turning off the road at a junction ahead.

As you can see, this is a classic example of what impatience can do.

And, pray, what has all that got to do with what I actually wrote? Did I condone the use of hard shoulders for evading traffic queues? No, I didn't think so!

mackerski

Alun wrote:

It depends on the situation. If it's a case where one lane is temporarily blocked , say for roadworks, then I can't see any sane reason why all available roadspace shouldn't be used right up to the point at which the lane disappears, rather than some arbitrary distance before the obstruction. If people just did this, there wouldn't be a free outside lane for people to whizz up, and the whole queue would be shorter.

I agree with this. This practice of filling all available lanespace until actual end of lane is law in Germany - as is the "zip" model of allowing two lanes to merge into one fairly (every car in the lane that's not ending allows in one car from the other).

There's one Irish road situation where I have been known to do something quite like this particular queue jumper: Picture a single-carriageway suburban road with a bus lane on it. The road is approaching a T-junction, some cars want to go right, some left. The bus lane ends about 20m before the junction, where it turns into the left-turn lane. This lane fills up pretty quickly. Most Irish drivers seem to consider it reasonable to queue in the bus lane behind, often filling it for a long distance. I know foolishness and the penalty, so I prefer to drive in the permitted lane until the bus lane ends, then bully (I prefer "assert") my way into the left-turn lane. This suits me fine, because it can save a 10-minute wait. It doesn't suit the folks in the bus lane, but then they had no business being there in the first place.

Dermot

Alun

mackerski wrote:

There's one Irish road situation where I have been known to do something quite like this particular queue jumper: Picture a single-carriageway suburban road with a bus lane on it. The road is approaching a T-junction, some cars want to go right, some left. The bus lane ends about 20m before the junction, where it turns into the left-turn lane. This lane fills up pretty quickly. Most Irish drivers seem to consider it reasonable to queue in the bus lane behind, often filling it for a long distance. I know foolishness and the penalty, so I prefer to drive in the permitted lane until the bus lane ends, then bully (I prefer "assert") my way into the left-turn lane. This suits me fine, because it can save a 10-minute wait. It doesn't suit the folks in the bus lane, but then they had no business being there in the first place.

I think I know where this is ... on the back road from Enniskerry through Kilternan and Stepaside towards Leopardstown/Sandyford? I do exactly the same as you do, although it takes some effort sometimes

robfitz

fenris wrote:

Does anybody know why after sitting a double line of traffic for 45 minutes, somebody would allow a gob****e who has whizzed down the outside, past a huge tailback, to barge in ahead of them ?

Am I the only one we finds this hugely annoying ?

Why be annoyed when you can react? Traffic Watch 1890 205805.

http://www.garda.ie/angarda/safedrive.html

...

* If you witness dangerous driving, suspected drunken driving etc., call the Gardaí on 999 or 112, or on Traffic Watch Lo-call 1890 205805. Try to get the make, colour and registration number of the vehicle and the direction in which it is heading. Don't leave it to others to call us - your call could save a life.

In related news.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2005/01/06/story183457.html

Govt approves plans to allow buses use hard shoulders
06/01/2005 - 10:10:09

The Government has approved plans to allow buses travelling into Dublin to use hard shoulders to avoid traffic congestion.

The measure had been proposed by bus companies that said increasing gridlock was pushing up journey times and reducing their profits.

Bus Eireann has estimated that traffic congestion cost it €20m last year.

Details of which roads to be affected by the new measure, as well as a special speed limits for buses using hard shoulders, are due to be revealed in coming weeks.

mackerski

Alun wrote:

I think I know where this is ... on the back road from Enniskerry through Kilternan and Stepaside towards Leopardstown/Sandyford? I do exactly the same as you do, although it takes some effort sometimes

Incorrect - the spot I'm thinking of has happily had its bus lane burnt off again (happily because it wasn't helping buses and was only causing extra aggro). It was in Blanchardstown on the road that goes from the fire station to the Clonsilla Road.

Yes, it takes effort, skill and a hard neck. But it's better than tucking yourself in quietly at the back of a bus lane and hoping the fuzz don't show up for the next 15 minutes.

Dermot

PoolDude

The Sandyford situation that the original poster is indeed intolerable. Making matters worse was Operation Slow Flow where the garda persistently slowed down the flow of traffic over christmas. They added 10 minutes to my journey alone.

MrPudding

One thing the guards did do which I liked was enforce the lanes crossing the N11 to Stillorgan. There are 2 lanes on the Blackrock side. The left for straight on the left and the right for right onto the N11 only. The right hand lane normally has a much smaller queue and some driver use it to jump the traffic going straight. Over Christmas there was a copper forcing people to turn right if they were in that lane. I liked that.

MrP

BrianD3

Most Irish drivers seem to consider it reasonable to queue in the bus lane behind, often filling it for a long distance. I know foolishness and the penalty, so I prefer to drive in the permitted lane until the bus lane ends, then bully (I prefer "assert") my way into the left-turn lane. This suits me fine, because it can save a 10-minute wait. It doesn't suit the folks in the bus lane, but then they had no business being there in the first place

Yep I've experienced this too. Once one driver decides he's going to queue in the bus lane the rest of the sheep behind him decide to follow suit. Any drivers who are actually following the rules of the road and waiting for the bus lane to end are then left "stranded" in the wrong lane and are forced to assert their way into the left turn lane.

However I don't think the rights and wrongs of this situation are as clear cut as you're making out. Lets say you were on a 40 or 50 mph dual carriageway and have to stop in the road while you assert your way into the left turn lane. You're a sitting duck and are quite likely to be rear ended. If spotted by a garda I'm not sure he'd react to favourably to what you were doing even though technically you'd be in the right and the drivers in the bus lane are in the wrong. IMO It's a lot safer to obstruct a bus lane where a bus only comes along every few minutes than to obstruct a carriageway where there's fast moving heavy traffic

And a similar thing can happen on motorways too except it's a hard shoulder rather than a bus lane Have actually seen it happen on the M50 northbound at the N4 exit before the interchange was upgraded (slightly) a few years ago.

TBH I blame road designers, planners, traffic managers fro these situations Roads should be designed in such a way so that left turning traffic never/rarely backs up at exits like that.

[edit] having reread your post I see you were talking about T junctions on suburban roads rather than exits off dual carrigeways/motorways. In the case of T juctions, the safety and obstruction issues don't really arise.

BrianD3

BrianD3

Oh yeah and an example of queue jumping that maddens me is assholes driving all the way around a three lane roundabout in the leftmost lane (which is clearly marked as a left/straight lane) and taking the third exit. Happens all the time at the M50/N4 roundabout I always see at least 5 or 6 muppets pulling this stunt in order to avoid the congestion in the correct lanes.

Sometimes they just blissfully continue arond the roundabout ignoring all road markings, seemingly unware that they're doing anything wrong and somehow find themselves in the correct lane by the time they get to their exit. Other f*ckers know right well that they're in the wrong lane and will boot it away from the lights (maybe even breaking the red) in order to jump in ahead of drivers who have been queueing in the correct lanes.

Most people are too dopey to even spot this queue jumping so they get away with it. If it happens to me I will do my best to block them if I can but they're often so aggressive that it's a case of "let me in or we crash" I'm not going to crash into someone and damage my car just to teach some queue jumper a lesson.

BrianD3

Capt'n Midnight

fenris wrote:

Does anybody know why after sitting a double line of traffic for 45 minutes, somebody would allow a gob****e who has whizzed down the outside, past a huge tailback, to barge in ahead of them ?

Am I the only one we finds this hugely annoying ?

Same is true coming from the back of Baldonel onto the Naas Road at City West. You can take 20-25 minutes to get to the bridge and during that time two or three people will be let in ahead. Worse many of them stop on the hatched white lines (illegal) while trying to get in.

They are just cheaters, be interesting to know if it's the same people all the time or not - probably saves them the equilivant of a full working day every month - but since only the same amount of traffic gets through it is at the expense of everyone else.

thegills

When I am in a hurry, I do most of the above except for the bus lane thing. If I see a huge queue than I will drive in the right hand lane and wait for the queue to start moving. Generally I would only do it if there was a slow-starting truck in the lane which allows me to nip in. But 9/10 times there will be an old person or a female driver who are sometimes slow to accelorate (Not being sexist just staing the facts). I also like using the bus lanes after 7.00pm when most people don't realise they can.
One of my favourites though is when I am driving behind a slow driver and a climbing / slow lane is approaching. The law states that you should move into the left hand lane but these slow drivers generally don't notice the slow lane and still think its a hard shoulder. They usually get an awful shock when I fly past them. I even had a geezer who was texting and didn't notice the slow lane. When he saw me driving past he got realy aggressive and tried to run me off the road.

A Dub in Glasgo

You sound quite a charmer on the roads

jbkenn

thegills wrote:

When I am in a hurry, I do most of the above except for the bus lane thing. If I see a huge queue than I will drive in the right hand lane and wait for the queue to start moving. Generally I would only do it if there was a slow-starting truck in the lane which allows me to nip in. But 9/10 times there will be an old person or a female driver who are sometimes slow to accelorate (Not being sexist just staing the facts). I also like using the bus lanes after 7.00pm when most people don't realise they can.
One of my favourites though is when I am driving behind a slow driver and a climbing / slow lane is approaching. The law states that you should move into the left hand lane but these slow drivers generally don't notice the slow lane and still think its a hard shoulder. They usually get an awful shock when I fly past them. I even had a geezer who was texting and didn't notice the slow lane. When he saw me driving past he got realy aggressive and tried to run me off the road.

Am I the only one ? or do the words dick and head merge here

jbkenn

Andrew Duffy

Ok - you realise that:

a - it is illegal to pass on the left at speed
b- a climbing, or slow lane is exactly what it says on the tin - it is for vehicles that can't climb the hill at a reasonable speed. "Reasonable speed" does not mean "the speed limit" - I was undertaken by three vehicles while drivng up quite a steep hill on the N2 last month, and I was breaking the speed limit. I assume none of the undertakers had precognitive abilities to forsee what was in the hard shoulder beyond the crest of the hill.

Alun

Andrew Duffy wrote:

b- a climbing, or slow lane is exactly what it says on the tin - it is for vehicles that can't climb the hill at a reasonable speed.

I'm assuming though that the general rule to keep left except when overtaking also applies in the case of a crawler lane? I.e. slow traffic is obliged to use it, but that doesn't mean that normal traffic can't or shouldn't?

JackieChan

Alun,
What you say is true but that does not mean it can be used as an 'undertaking' lane.

Andrew Duffy

I don't believe well-progressing traffic should use the climbing lane, because it turns back into a hard shoulder with no visibility due to the hill. Therefore, you are in slightly more control of the situation staying in the non-climbing lane. I don't think I've seen a climbing lane that wasn't just a hard shoulder painted differently for the left hand side of the hill, although it's possible the surface is better than the hard shoulder.
Of course the 2+1 roads are different - they have an overtaking lane that alternates between side, and are generally engineered not to have steep slopes.

Alun

JackieChan wrote:

Alun,
What you say is true but that does not mean it can be used as an 'undertaking' lane.

I wasn't advocating doing that, but merely querying the legal situation.

Alun

Andrew Duffy wrote:

I don't believe well-progressing traffic should use the climbing lane, because it turns back into a hard shoulder with no visibility due to the hill. Therefore, you are in slightly more control of the situation staying in the non-climbing lane. I don't think I've seen a climbing lane that wasn't just a hard shoulder painted differently for the left hand side of the hill, although it's possible the surface is better than the hard shoulder.
Of course the 2+1 roads are different - they have an overtaking lane that alternates between side, and are generally engineered not to have steep slopes.

The ones I've seen (and that isn't that many, I'll admit) aren't like that at all, but more like short 2+1 roads as you describe.

Victor

As best I know, there is no legal basis for "slow lanes" and if it is empty it should be used by all traffic (unless overtaking). Quite often the other side of the road won't have an overtaking lane, so you just might find someone overtaking in the centre lane

Pataman

I was always under the impression that it was quite legal to "undertake". It is in most european countries, with the exception of the UK. Most Irish drivers have not got a clue about lane driving, people hogging the overtaking lane for miles with the other lane empty.

mackerski

Pataman wrote:

I was always under the impression that it was quite legal to "undertake".

You were mistaken.

Pataman wrote:

It is in most european countries, with the exception of the UK.

You sure about this? The only country I've ever been in that was "lane agnostic" was the US, and even there it's a regionally variable thing.

Pataman wrote:

Most Irish drivers have not got a clue about lane driving, people hogging the overtaking lane for miles with the other lane empty.

You are correct here - though your earlier points go some way to backing this last point up.

Dermot

Pataman

mackerski wrote:

You were mistaken.



You sure about this? The only country I've ever been in that was "lane agnostic" was the US, and even there it's a regionally variable thing.



You are correct here - though your earlier points go some way to backing this last point up.

Dermot

The ignorance is yours, my friend. Page 25 of the Rules of the Road state:
Normally you must overtake on the right but overtaking on the left is permitted -

When traffic is moving slowly and the vehicles in the lane on your right are moving more slowly than the traffic in your lane!!!

Andrew Duffy

"moving in queues" means moving in heavy urban traffic. Undertaking at speed is illegal for a very good reason - the blind spot to the left of an unobservant driver is big enough to hide a truck.

mackerski

Pataman wrote:

The ignorance is yours, my friend. Page 25 of the Rules of the Road state:
Normally you must overtake on the right but overtaking on the left is permitted -

When traffic is moving slowly and the vehicles in the lane on your right are moving more slowly than the traffic in your lane!!!

That was what you meant by "quite legal"? If you say so...

Dermot