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why?

  • 22-06-2001 8:02pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9


    why is it always left up to the american military to step into a conflict and force a peace settlement????

    its not like they have a good track record with treaties....

    i was just reading up on the situation in macedonia and NATO are waiting for the american military to send "weapon collection" forces in, somthing the americans have not yet agreed to do.


    its a big joke.


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,162 ✭✭✭_CreeD_


    As opposed to wonderful Ireland's "Neutrality".....which has become an excuse to always sit on the wall and whinge about how little others are doing.


    [This message has been edited by _CreeD_ (edited 23-06-2001).]


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,580 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by bugler:
    ... look what they did in Lebanon, and throughout the Mid-East. Despite having the technologically most advanced army in the world, the Americans are terrified of direct conflict. </font>

    Hmmm, yes. In Lebanon, despite big UN letters on his helicopter, the Americans managed to shoot a friend's father down

    .
    .

    .
    .

    .
    .
    twice.


    Changing call sign to SIERRA PAPA OSCAR OSCAR FOXTROT.

    [This message has been edited by Victor (edited 23-06-2001).]


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,446 ✭✭✭bugler


    Yes Creed.Ireland should send in its massive army with all those tanks and helicopters we buy.I mean we could easily substitute for NATO in a logistical sense. Why should the bigger and more powerful countries do anything like that in europe?! Let us do it!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,162 ✭✭✭_CreeD_


    I'm just saying it annoys me that we hide behind neutrality for just about everything. And then slag the americans about being so gung-ho.
    I don't think we should be running out and trying to solve all the worlds problems with our 'awe inspiring army' , but we should at least be more pro-active in helping to solve those on our own doorstep.

    Take Kosovo for an example. The UN, including Ireland all sat around saying how terrible it all was, telling Milosevic and his boys that they were all very bold....But what stopped them? Nato, led into it by the states, for whatever reason they stood up and did the right thing - I know it is mainly out of self interest, stabilising foreign market economies etc. But at least they did something.
    We did nout.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 898 ✭✭✭Winning Hand


    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by bugler:
    In Somalia, 18 Marines were killed in an operation to capture a Warlord which also left over 500 Somalians dead, what was the US's reaction? To pull out of Somalia.</font>

    There is an excellent book out about that called Black Hawk down, I recommend it. Anyway from what I can see, why are they calling it a civil war when (from here) its seems to be the Macedonians fighting the scumbag ethnic albanians. Please correct me on this if its wrong.

    As to the US policy, its a sham. The americans have at this stage a psycological aversion to deploying ground troops, the top brass seem to fail to understand what they tell every soldier "Ground troops will always be needed on the battlefield", which is why the americans have never outright ]won a war since probably vietnam.


    I like my coffee like I like my women.......
    In a plastic cup

    I like my coffee like I like my women......
    covered in bees


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,446 ✭✭✭bugler


    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by _CreeD_:

    The UN, including Ireland all sat around saying how terrible it all was, telling Milosevic and his boys that they were all very bold....But what stopped them? Nato, led into it by the states
    </font>

    The bombing actually increased the expulsion of ethnic Albanians by a massive rate, and violence against them. Later it was revealed by the military that this was pretty much expected.I didn't have any sympathy for Milosevic or the Yugoslav military, but the US only applies it's 'moral' wrath to those who won't follow their line.As Noam Chomsky put it, the intervention by NATO was akin to seeing a person being attacked in the street, and by way of intervention and solving the problem, getting a gun and shooting both the victim and the attacker.Thats not even to mention that NATO lied outrageously in order to justify the bombings.They were heard to utter figures of up to 500,000 ethnic albanian men missing presumed dead, to date only over two thousand bodies have been found, this includes those killed by NATO bombs aswell. New graves are being found, etnic albanians believe that maybe there are 5000 or so dead. The UN is a lame excuse for an international body concerned with these matters. Creed, NATO reacted slowly(and in an unhelpful manner) due to US reluctance, not their enthusiasm.Britain and other NATO members could have moved immediately.

    Nice quote to finish off with:
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">It would be some time before I fully realized that the United States sees little need for diplomacy. Power is enough. Only the weak rely on diplomacy ... The Roman Empire had no need for diplomacy. Nor does the United States.</font>

    -Boutros Boutros-Ghali(Former UN Sec. General)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,446 ✭✭✭bugler


    And by the way Winning Hand your racist post completely missed the point.Macedonia has a large ethnic albanian minority.They live in Macedonia, they work in Macedonia, they vote in Macedonia.Would you like to see them as the Kurds are in the Mid East?
    The sad thing is that the ethnic albanian movement for equal rights etc was taking place peacefully for 10 years, but got no-where.Looks like they finally realised what NATO et al knew all along, and the Croats and Bosnians proved, the gun is the way forward.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 898 ✭✭✭Winning Hand


    Yes, and what exactly did the albanians do once NATO peacekeeping troops entered kosovo, oh yeah, they butchered the serbian civilians who stayed behind. Yeah bugler real peaceful not even a gun most of the time. In case you think my morals are nowhere near as good as yours I dont for a second condone milosovic his regime, all Im saying is it takes two to tango. Best quote re the albanians came from Clarkson "when the albanians came to Italy they had the mafia running scared".


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,446 ✭✭✭bugler


    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Winning Hand:
    Anyway from what I can see, why are they calling it a civil war when (from here) its seems to be the Macedonians fighting the scumbag ethnic albanians. Please correct me on this if its wrong.
    </font>

    Nicely put. 'Scumbag ethnic albanians'. Lovely.Just slander whole ethnic groups while your at it.After all, I'm sure all those scumbags took part in the killings of Serbs.Read that quote again.Then read what I posted. Then at least have the decency to admit you hadn't a clue what you were talking about.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,446 ✭✭✭bugler


    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Winning Hand:
    they butchered the serbian civilians who stayed behind. Yeah bugler real peaceful not even a gun most of the time.</font>

    Missed this gem first time round.

    I said :
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The sad thing is that the ethnic albanian movement for equal rights etc was taking place peacefully for 10 years, but got no-where.Looks like they finally realised what NATO et al knew all along, and the Croats and Bosnians proved, the gun is the way forward. </font>

    I never said ethnic albanians were still peaceful now or after KFOR troops moved in.How could I say that? I'm well aware of the KLA/UCK and what its done.If you would care to read what I said again you will see I said they had been trying to progress peacefully for a decade.Then they turned towards violence.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,446 ✭✭✭bugler


    Well, it goes something like this. The US runs NATO. So therefore NATO never does anything without the US's approval, or without getting the all-clear from them. The US also has an over-influential hand in the UN.Or rather it disregards the UN when it feels like it, and if it is of benefit to themselves.It has and does obstruct and block the UN where it sees fit to do so.You're right, the US is easily capable of making a balls out of these situations, look what they did in Lebanon, and throughout the Mid-East. Despite having the technologically most advanced army in the world, the Americans are terrified of direct conflict. Vietnam left a large wound on their psyche, and the Governement would risk losing huge support from the public if young marines starting coming home in bags.That is why we had the reluctance to send ground forces to Kosovo and the reliance of aerial power(the bombing sorties were flown at very high altitudes, to avoid casualties, this also meant they generally had trouble hitting anything that wasn't very big and stationary).It was the same in the gulf.Pounding an inferior enemy from afar does not a glorious war make.In Somalia, 18 Marines were killed in an operation to capture a Warlord which also left over 500 Somalians dead, what was the US's reaction? To pull out of Somalia.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 898 ✭✭✭Winning Hand


    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by bugler:
    Read that quote again.Then read what I posted. Then at least have the decency to admit you hadn't a clue what you were talking about.</font>

    You want me to start on non-caucasian groups smile.gif, I would only I dont want to overload the server.

    1.Please correct me if Im wrong . Seeing as you haven't corrected me Im gonna assume im right in saying its the macedonian
    government fighting the ethnic (very decent folk really smile.gif) albanians.

    What are they fighting for?
    Who are they fighting (general statement)?
    Oh buglar, I have been reading what you've been saying. Twice you have called me a racist, once you have said I haven't a clue. You have taken my statement "scumbag ethnic albanians" and run a mile with it. Maybe it was a small bit harsh but I stand by my distrust of them.

    <shrug> Im a "When in Rome" person. I dont like ethnic groups setting up closed communities in other countries, it is not a racist view, too many problems occur: They usually distrust the established authority, traditions inevitable create distrust and when there is a language barrier the problems are amplified </shrug>
    Time for my happy sig I think



    I like my coffee like I like my women.......
    In a plastic cup

    I like my coffee like I like my women......
    covered in bees


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,162 ✭✭✭_CreeD_


    if you choose to live in a country you live by it's laws - you don't just decide that there are more of you in one area than elsewhere so now you can have your own country.
    The Balkans are just like Africa, basically tribal - And just as screwed up.

    War is not 'fair' or fought buy gentlemen's rules, you'll find atrocities on both sides in any conflict.
    As for Nato's sluggishness in entering Kosovo, that may well be true but they still acted faster than the rest of the world (And definitely us). Also it may not have been an ideal solution, they did do damage to the country in general, but what else was there?
    Your analogy above about 2 people fighting on the street, would it be better to hesitate and stand and watch one brutally kill the other just so we didn't have to accept the fact that your action (While stopping the main conflict) may have harmed both?.
    Of course it doesn't help when the underdog you just saved from annihilation then starts trying to throw punches around you at the opponent now that he knows you're in the way of return strikes....


    Last time, I'm not saying the US (or Nato, or any other force) is perfect. Of course they act in self interest, as does every nation under the sun, but doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is sometimes better than standing by on high moral ground paralysed by a fear of interfering and getting it wrong.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭the fnj


    You all seem to be straying off the main points why America loves to get involved in other countries politics.

    America spends a huge amount of money on the military every year. They need to blow something up every now and again to justify there spending. Attacking small dictators is the simplest way to do this. Iraq can't launch a counter offence against America. It rarely shoots down America's plans. America gets to blow the hell out of Iraq it loses one or two soldiers makes them into martyrs uses it's propaganda machine to get the easily lead American public on side with what their doing. The American public then have no problems shelling out tax dollars to buy bigger and better guns.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,446 ✭✭✭bugler



    Firstly Winning Hand, your assumption that it's the 'Macedonian Government' fighting the ethnic albanians makes a balls of the situation, and is quite telling.The ethnic albanians make up a 1/4 (i think) of Macedonia.They elect representatives to Macedonian parliament.They have representatives in Government.So when you state it's the Macedonian government fighting the ethnic albanians you are fuzzing the matter entirely.None of the albanian mainstream political leaders have condemned the rebel violence outright, which is telling as it reveals they are not the fanatical extremists portrayed by some.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">What are they fighting for? </font>

    Equal rights for ethnic albanians.Some of the more extreme militants seek autonomy or independence, negotiations should take place to ascertain exactly what it is they want.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Who are they fighting (general statement)?</font>

    Macedonian Government forces.These are typically 90 % plus Macedonian slav.They may be the governments forces, this does not mean it is not a civil war.By your logic Winning hand, there could never be a civil war, as someone always claims legitimacy, so if one side says it's the government then there is no civil war right? Such bias towards those with legitamacy(AKA power) is unfair.I think the term civil war is being touted because support is there in Macedonia(among Macedonian citizens) for the rebels, and the force also includes Macedonian albanians.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Maybe it was a small bit harsh but I stand by my distrust of them.</font>

    It wasn't harsh.It was racist.It was no more acceptable than me claiming that all Protestants in northern Ireland are scum, or an British person claiming that all the Irish people in the UK are scum.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I dont like ethnic groups setting up closed communities in other countries</font>

    I don't think anyone said they were closed. People have a right to their own culture and beliefs.As for 'setting up' in other countries, do you think that the large minority of ethnic albanians just strolled across the border from Kosovo the other week? I don't know how you feel about our current refugee situation, but I think its fair to say that you would prefer if all Nigerians coming in to Ireland would try not to be different, try to 'fit in', to be Irish.Maybe the wearing of tweed caps should be made compulsory smile.gif.Perhaps we should force our language on them.Do you agree?

    Creed: As I have said already, I have no problem with the idea of Humanitarian Intervention, whoever does it.In theory, western powers intervening in Kosovo to protect ethnic albanians from Serb forces/paramilitaries would have been welcomed by me.But what we got was a cack handed response, which heightened attacks on albanians and forced more of them into becoming refugees, also forcing international monitors out of the region.A better solution would have been postive and aggressive diplomatic efforts, if these had no effect then the introduction of peackeepers(most of NATO wanted unarmed peacekeepers put in, not the US though). Whatever about the constitution of the force, ground troops could have actually done the job the US said it was trying to accomplish.The US said it was intervening on Humanitarian grounds.What it did was increase the expulsion of ethnic albanians, increase the incidence of attacks on them, and bomb innocent Serb civilians.Nice job. To look at the 'humanitarian intervention' aspect, I can only assume the Kurds of Turkey are not entitled to this, nor most of Colombias people, nor the Palestinians, nor the Lebanese whom Israel killed in an unjustfied invasion of a sovereign nation (Ten times the amount killed in Kosovo). I'm not doubting your wish to see fairness applied Creed, but I can't agree with your assumption that the right thing was done in kosovo.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by _CreeD_:
    if you choose to live in a country you live by it's laws - you don't just decide that there are more of you in one area than elsewhere so now you can have your own country.
    </font>

    I presume you didn't think that Croatia and Slovenia and Bosnia had any right to independence either? Did Ireland when it was under the control of Britain? Before you cite how Ireland was forcefully occupied remember that every place was, or else did it to other places, its just a matter of chronology.When Milosevic withdrew Kosovo's autonomy in 1988 the ethinc albanian majority launched a dignified peaceful campaign to get their rights back.The Dayton accord carved up Yugoslavia into Croatia, Bosnia, and Serbia(still to remain Yugoslavia).Guess who was left out? The one group who had been peaceful.What kind of message does that send?! No wonder they started fighting.It's all the US rewards or responds to.If you have genuine grievances as an ethinc group, and your peaceful efforts go unrewarded, then there is a case for violence.I don't like it, but its the truth.


    [This message has been edited by bugler (edited 24-06-2001).]


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭androphobic


    Winning Hand:

    A "when in rome person"? but do you not believe that diversity is important and often vital?
    Surely the integration of different cultures helps to shape a country?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 898 ✭✭✭Winning Hand


    To andro and buglar: You know what I meant. I believe cultural diversity is important, but my point was, and I stated clearly that closed communities are a bad way to go, take london for example. The met police are considering letting rastafarian cops keep their dreadlocks so they can talk to the jamacian community. Why has it come down to this? Because these people wouldnt integrate themselves into the society they transplanted themselves into.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Who are they fighting (general statement)?.....do you think that the large minority of ethnic albanians just strolled across the border from Kosovo the other week? </font>

    My general question was why they were fighting in the balkans, not just in macedonia. And as a matter of fact the problems the italians are having with the albanians is that yes a large majority stroll into the country each week.

    We're goin in circles here.

    Now if you'll excuse me, I've a bunch of foreigners here that need a good tar 'n feathering


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,446 ✭✭✭bugler


    I'm unaware of how well ethnic albanians integrated thmeselves into Macedonia, but considering that they were not politically apathetic they couldn't have been too reclusive.Integration takes effort, and not just that of the minorities.When you get a state with a 90% bias towards one group in the police/military it's a fair bet that the government's actions were not exactly condusive to encouraging ethnic albanians to join.Like in N.I, if people have distrust of the authorities, it is usually not without reason.

    Reasons for war in the Balkans? Well seen as Yugoslavia consisted of so many different people with different identities and cultures it was always going to be tricky to prevent discontent.Tito managed to pull it off very well on the whole.When he died, people knew there would be trouble.They were right.Milosevic came along and a strong Serb bias was evident, he fanned the flames of nationalism.Of course there were people on all sides with nationalistic fervour, but essentially Milosevic could not pull of the juggling act, and sometimes it seemed like he never tried, withdrawing Kosovo's autonomy being a prime example.

    I'm not interested in or talking about Albanian criminals immigrating to Italy.I'm talking about war and civil unrest in Macedonia.Lots of Irish men were involved in crime when they immigrated to the US, what's your point? Immigrants are very likely to be poor, and those who are socially deprived are more likely to have ambitions of a criminal nature.I'm sure you are not suggesting that all albanian immigrants are criminals. As for going in circles, well I'm trying to answer you....

    [This message has been edited by bugler (edited 24-06-2001).]


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,525 ✭✭✭JustHalf


    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by bugler:
    Perhaps we should force our language on them.Do you agree?</font>
    No person, in good conscious, would ever do something so vile.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,446 ✭✭✭bugler


    Yes of course not, as I'm sure you are aware I was being sarcastic. The practice of forcing one's language on others is common however, we Irish suffered that fate ( a lasting legacy) and more recently you could look at the Kurds or East Timorese who have faced attempts to wipe out their cultures.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭Clintons Cat


    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">. The met police are considering letting rastafarian cops keep their dreadlocks so they can talk to the jamacian community. Why has it come down to this?</font>

    Are you saying that by expressing his religion a rasterfarian cop would be unable to do his job correctly?
    I dont know how well versed you are in rasterfarian culture vis a vie babylon,but the fact rasterfarians even consider joining the met surely shows a greater willingness to assimilate and enter mainstream culture/society.For to long the criminal element in west indian communities has relied upon the the culture of silence,to protect it from prosecution,if a few coppers keep their dreads well so what?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 898 ✭✭✭Winning Hand


    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Clintons Cat:

    For to long the criminal element in west indian communities has relied upon the the culture of silence,to protect it from prosecution,if a few coppers keep their dreads well so what?
    </font>

    Um, your kinda reiterating my point. I was saying all along how I dislike cultures of silence, and the baggage that comes with it, and I was saying (rhetorically) why should it come down to changing regulations for these ppl to accept the authoritive figures in their (not really) adopted country.

    I know I cant articulate my points perfectly but I thought I made enough sense in my previous post


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Winning Hand:
    which is why the americans have never outright won a war since probably vietnam.
    </font>
    And you believe the Americans won Vietnam outright? Okaaaaaaay.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,309 ✭✭✭✭Bard


    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ravanok:
    why is it always left up to the american military to step into a conflict and force a peace settlement????
    </font>

    Simple... because they can.

    Bard
    Vidi, Vici, Veni.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭Clintons Cat


    Rasterfarianism is a recognised world religion as defined by the United Nations its adherents believe that by growing their hair they are growing "closer to god" and the image in which he created them.
    This is not an uncommon beleif,Siekhs beleif much the same thing.
    To suggest that the met cannot change its admissions policy to accomodate this seems a little inflexible to me.After all siekhs manage to serve in both police and military without having to compromise their religious beliefs.
    As for the cultures of silence yes they are a bad thing,the biggest victims of "Yardie" violence,murder and street crime are young black men,the community whose mistrust of the police and unwillinglness to come forward either to report crimes against themselves or act as witnesses shields the criminals from prosecution.
    But as Bugler said if people have distrust of the authorities, it is usually not without reason.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I know I cant articulate my points perfectly </font>
    just a thought but perhaps you could start by trying to explain why exactly you consider Albanians as scumbags.
    Should make interesting reading.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭Clintons Cat


    Rasterfarianism is a recognised world religion as defined by the United Nations its adherents believe that by growing their hair they are growing "closer to god" and the image in which he created them.
    This is not an uncommon beleif,Siekhs beleif much the same thing.
    To suggest that the met cannot change its admissions policy to accomodate this seems a little inflexible to me.After all siekhs manage to serve in both police and military without having to compromise their religious beliefs.
    As for the cultures of silence yes they are a bad thing,the biggest victims of "Yardie" violence,murder and street crime are young black men,the community whose mistrust of the police and unwillinglness to come forward either to report crimes against themselves or act as witnesses shields the criminals from prosecution.
    But as Bugler said if people have distrust of the authorities, it is usually not without reason.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I know I cant articulate my points perfectly </font>
    just a thought but perhaps you could start by trying to explain why exactly you consider Albanians as scumbags.
    Should make interesting reading.


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