Green Party is a Hoax

Magwitch · 10-06-2001 2:52am #1

I spoke to a few friends tonight who in the past voted Green Party, an all of them swore they would never do so again after the Nice result.

A no vote was carried because of apathy, it happens.

Neutrality is a joke. It is an excuse for Irish politicians not to have an opinion. Agriculture was always afriad of loosing export markets (such as Iraq) but now we have a common European Agri policy so that is invalid, as well as the fact that the redrawing of electoral boundries deminishes that influence upon Irish politics.

BUT..answer this....The Greens want a NO vote. Yet greater Eurpoean expansion will impose EU polutoin controls on ex-communist counrtries. So why no? Surely it is their core belief? NO it is not. The green vote has dropped nationaly from 3% to 1% because they have no green credentials any more.

GREEN was a protest vote in the past but now it is main stream politics. The Green Party is hanging in there but not on green issues but on Socialist Worker issues - which leads me to believe that the "greens" in the party are actually long gone.

Patrica McKenna has opinions but they reflect (on non-green issues) the SW handbook. Green is dead. Their alliance with Sinn Fein and SW points to the core of what the "greens" now are. A proxy power vote for the SW and SF, ie. a front and a fraud.

When is the last time the Greens made a Major National stand on Environment issues? Were they at the Glen of the Downs? No!

GreenHell · 10-06-2001 8:55am

The greens were more or less unheard between the last general election and the nice treaty they have and will always a party going nowhere howing to appeal to the fringe of the electrate.

DadaKopf · 10-06-2001 9:07am

Across Europe: The Greens = 'The New Left' so Irish Greens = "new left" (apparently).

They're a really ineffective party - it's a shame. All the same, I don't think their anti-Nice stance was against their ideology; they were just trying to be consistently anti-globalisation and pro-democracy.

You're right though, Magwitch, they aren't a proper Green party but when you have no imagination and no personalities, what the hell you gonna do? Bah humbug.

bugler · 10-06-2001 10:27am

This is nothing new.Take a look at Germanys Green Party! They have given their tacit approval to nuclear power etc. Truly a party bereft of integrity. As a general rule, I am always wary of Greens no matter in what country.I appreciate the importance of our environment but I do not think that a party with its preservation as its cole belief is ideally suited to running a country.There should be other parties who give the environment enough consideration without having it as a central factor to its existent.I'm not saying there are such parties, but that there should be.

Magwitch · 10-06-2001 2:26pm

Originally posted by bugler:
This is nothing new.Take a look at Germanys Green Party! They have given their tacit approval to nuclear power etc. Truly a party bereft of integrity.

I agree, we have touched on this before. A single issue party must indulge in the same compromises and horse trading as every other political party if they are an elected party. When they must tackle diverse issues and must have opinions and policies on them they actomatically risk loosing support and members who only joined for that single initial issue.

The Greens in Ireland though have ceased to even talk on Green Issues and are almost entirely a mouth peice for SW and its views. Which is no good to anyone. They are a party of the negitive, which is of course a cop out as it is the easiest and most unimaginative thing to do.

Where for instance do they stand on really controversal issues? Like adortion? God forbid they would offer an opinion on that at a referendum - it would spell the end of them if they fell off that fence.

azezil · 10-06-2001 4:03pm

in relation to the green party not offering their views on matters such as abortion etc., look at it from their point of view, they have only a few seats to make a stand either way on an issue as contraversial as that could ruin them!

i agree they don't apear to be takeing an active interest in whats going on around them, but that may reflect the over all lack of interest of the public?

to do away with them would be wrong, ok they appear grossly inefective but they are necessary, although it may seem as if they're doing nothing, they must be doing something otherwise the country would be an industrial wasteland!

"just because you're not paraniod, doesn't mean they're not after you!"

DadaKopf · 10-06-2001 4:35pm

i think people would support them more if they actually stuck to their convictions.

single issue parties prove to be almost as instrumental as major parties in parliament because of their pivotal role. an independent doctor got elected in britain on the single issue of keeping his hospital open - he'll have cross-partisan support. why can't our greens capitalise on something like that? Oh yeah, they don't really care or know what the hell they're on about.

They're like the rest of them - a bunch of skangers. Only decent 'green' is (i forget his name) from the SW's. Kieran Allen or something like that.

Yeah!

azezil · 10-06-2001 5:13pm

yeah i suppose but you have to consider that ireland is relatively pollution free in comparison to many of the other european countries, so the roll of the 'greens' is not such a major issue here, (yet).

"just because you're not paraniod, doesn't mean they're not after you!"

Magwitch · 10-06-2001 7:08pm

The single issue doctor is not planning on making a career in politics long term. He is trying to get the Hospitol on the political agenda.

The greens have contributed in some way to the inclusion of environmental issues in mainstream polititcs but now they actually have very little (actually nothing) to offer. This is reflected in the serious fall off in their vote (close to 70%).

All the greens are doing now is hanging in there and offering opinoins on issues they obviously are not capable of comprehending. As for their contribution to a "greener" Ireland, I have not seen it. Tourism pressure to keep things clean and EU regulation have done more than they ever could (or in fact did). They can claim credit for nothing.

As I siad they are a Hoax organisation hanging onto power for powers sake. The are not "green", competant or informed.

As paid public representitives they have a duty to reflect and partake in issues (again such as abortion, divirce, immegration) that their electors feel strongly about or affect them. Their complete unwillingness to do so is only to save their own skins and hence robs people who voted for them of input in the national arena of everyday politics.

Anyone with green credentials has long left the party.

Bloody Drunkard · 10-06-2001 8:22pm

Quote Magwitch

"Neutrality is a joke"

If it wasn't for neutrality many irish people would have died in wars which didn't affect us

If Ireland had fought in ww2 how many of us may not have been born because we could have lost granparents in the war

Magwitch · 10-06-2001 8:39pm

Firstly.....

Dev sent Irelands comiserations to the German people on the death of the furher (thats neutrality for ya). I suggest you learn a little something about Irish history and you will discover that our neutrality is only a flag of convenience.

We involve ourselves in sanctions and votes within the UN that are wholly partisan (sponsored by America usually when they are proving a point of prestige or looking for economic control). Irish troops fought and were killed in the Congo fighting a civil war on behalf of the united nations, a task well outside any UN mandate and Ireland did not grumble then (neutrality?).

Secondly.....
IN ww2, If Britian had fallen see how long it would have taken for it to "affect" us. Dublin still has a Jewish community. If America and Britian had failed that is the first thing that would change (in your estimation do they count as irish people?). German plans for a conquered Britian would also have affected us deeply and directly.

All wars now affect Ireland. We are part of a global economy. Aside from that we sit protected by NATO (oh those evil B*stards) on the very edge of Europe. As in the Nice treaty we count on the fruits and benifits of democracy and freedom without ever having to repay what has actually preserved them. And please don't talk about our UN peace keeping role. Sitting in fields and getting shot at and bombed is a poor excuse for "peace keeping". Irelands contribution is a token one and the Irish media and government are the only ones who make a fuss over it.

Manach · 10-06-2001 10:01pm

Just 2 brief points to Magwitch's previous post.
- Dev also sent condolences prior, to the US Embassy on the death of FDR, thats even-handedness.
- Also, US dominated or not, the UN is an international body that should be the only organisation to intervene militarily between nations & be the only bloc Ireland should have soldiers serving in.

Paladin · 10-06-2001 11:27pm

The "Greens" deprived my community of television for almost a decade because they wouldnt let our tv-signal bereft town (due to surrounding hills) put up a re-beaming ariel on the grounds it would damage a rare wall lichen.

This objection was made by people that had never in their lives seen the proposed site. They objected because they object to everything. Old people couldnt watch TV. You're old and housebound, and some stupid b4astard deprives you of TV simply for the sake of it, so how would you feel?

This is of course generalising a lot. The principle of environmentally friendly issues is fine. Its the retarded way that many of these "greens" are doing bugs me.

bugler · 10-06-2001 11:45pm

Originally posted by Magwitch:
Firstly.....

Dev sent Irelands comiserations to the German people on the death of the furher (thats neutrality for ya).

Yes well we also allowed US military to stop off and re-fuel etc within full view of my house en route to an unjust 'war' against Iraq, which also deserves a mention.Despite what you may think, extending ones sympathies to a country who just lost its leader is not as rare as you imagine.

And please don't talk about our UN peace keeping role. Sitting in fields and getting shot at and bombed is a poor excuse for "peace keeping". Irelands contribution is a token one and the Irish media and government are the only ones who make a fuss over it.
[/b]

Show some respect for those Irishmen who have died for UN peace keeping.Token? Token my ass. I'm sorry but I take exception to this accusation.I am by no means the biggest fan of UN decisions or mandates but have alook at this and tell me that our troops have have done nothing in the name of peace keeping:

When the first Irish United Nations force came to Lebanon in 1978, I found an Irish Army Air Corps captain, Martin Egan, sheltering under a truck as Palestinian gunmen shrieked abuse, the French Foreign Legion fixing bayonets 50ft away. Recalling his country's bloody experience in the Congo, Captain Egan, from beside one of the truck's axles, asked me a question very matter-of-factly. "Could this be the same?" It was worse.

In all, 48 Irish soldiers were to die in Lebanon in the next 23 years and this Saint Patrick's Day - the last for the UN's Irish battalion - there was talk of how they hoped their one unrecovered body may go home too: Private Kevin Joyce, kidnapped by dissident Palestinians in 1980, still posted missing and presumed dead.

There will be one more Irish battalion sent as peacekeepers to southern Lebanon and they will close Camp Shamrock in October. The Irish will then leave behind them a land that looks like County Mayo, in which they have been loved, harassed, insulted, murdered and maligned. But their peace-keepers stayed on through the worst shellfire and the most deliberate killings.

In the town of Tibnin, the Lebanese speak English with Dublin accents. In the village of Bradchit, they have Galway accents. In Haddata, the Lebanese speak like Waterford men.

At the Irish battalion's last Saint Patrick's Day parade this week, they were debating what to do with the memorials to their dead. Do they stay in the land where their soldiers died? Or are they freighted back to Ireland?

The mission of the UN Interim Force in Lebanon (Unifil) was supposed "to confirm the withdrawal of Israeli forces" after Israel's 1978 invasion and assist the Beirut government in restoring its sovereignty across southern Lebanon. But the Israelis continued to occupy the southernmost part of the country - 10 per cent of Lebanon - until they finally retreated last year after constant attack by Hizbollah guerrillas.

If "interim" can now be defined in Ireland as 23 years, much of that time was made ferocious by Lebanon's militias, by Israel's murderous little proxy force, the "South Lebanon Army" and, on one terrible occasion, by an Irish soldier who turned his weapon on three of his own comrades, killing them all.

The Israelis insulted the battalions as "Johnnie Walker Irish", infuriated because Irish troops, whose sobriety has never been in question, refused to retreat before Israel's proxy gunmen in 1980. In the village of At Tiri that year, the Irish went into battle to prevent the "South Lebanon Army" taking over.

They killed one of Israel's Lebanese allies and lost one of their own: Pte Stephen Griffin. I went to his funeral in Galway a few days later, his blue UN beret lying atop his coffin in the breezy seaside churchyard, the rocks and hills looking oddly like the land where he had died 2,500 miles away.

In revenge for their own dead, one of Israel's militiamen, Ali Bazi, murdered two Irish soldiers - Pte Smallhorn and Pte Barrett - in an incident that might be regarded as a war crime. But Mr Bazi now lives in safety in the United States. The Americans, otherwise so keen on hunting "terrorists", have shown no interest in arresting him.

Then there was Lieutenant Aonghus Murphy, one of Ireland's most promising young officers, deliberately blown up in a mine explosion by the Hizbollah in August of 1986. The guerrillas were angry that his men regularly cleared a road upon which they had planted mines to kill Israelis.

The man held responsible was a Hizbollah official named Jawad Kasfi, now among 19 Lebanese held illegally in Israel and whose release is demanded by the Hizbollah, and whose Unifil liaison officer, the bearded Haj Abu Firas, was sitting as a guest of honour at this week's Saint Patrick's parade. What, I did wonder, would Saint Patrick have made of that?

Yet Irish soldiers queuedto join their peace-keeping force here. Close to 30,000 of them have served in Lebanon. One of them, Pte Michael Keane, is just completing his 16th tour of duty; which means he has now spent eight years of his life in southern Lebanon, more than the average Lebanese trooper, Israeli occupation soldier or militiaman.

"It's been 23 years during which we shared with the people here the work and toil and indeed the sacrifices," said Michael Smith, the Irish Minister of Defence, after this week's Saint Patrick's Day parade. Coming to a land where people suffered oppression and conflict had formed a bond between soldiers and civilians.

Nor is this surprising. Like the Irish in the 19th century, the Lebanese suffered massive famines, in 1912 and 1915. Their countryside looks uncannily like Ireland. Their hospitality has much in common with that of the rural Irish. The Irish soldiers paid from their extra Lebanon salaries to fund an orphanage in Tibnin. And they leave behind one of the best Irish stories of recent times.

It may be apocryphal, but legend has it that Conor Cruise O'Brien, Ireland's scholar, historian, UN diplomat, government minister and supporter of Israel, turned up at the village of Beit Yahoun and told the local kids to leave him alone.

"Emshi" ("Go away"), the eminent Dr O'Brien is said to have told them. To which a small Lebanese boy answered in a perfect Dublin accent: "'Emshi' me bollicks!"

- Robert Fisk

[This message has been edited by bugler (edited 11-06-2001).]

[This message has been edited by bugler (edited 11-06-2001).]

Magwitch · 11-06-2001 1:30am

The question is neutrality. My father, two uncles and Grandfather have served abroad in the UN. In the scale of things Irelands UN contribution is small and a huge fuss is made out of it by the Irish state media (the blarney you just quoted) and Government. An impresion is given that the world respects Ireland. Patently untrue. We are a speck of a nation and our UN duties reflect that. I would suggest you read foreign papers more.

Irish soldiers have died in the Lebennon but if one cares to analyse the Irish role it is predominitly that of observer not "peace keeper" as is the case in most UN affairs. The Irish abroad in the UN are powerless to defend themselves and hence casualties have been the result. Irish soldiers have been killed when either side has simply decided to break the peace and the UN can do nothing about it. The very fact Irish lives are put under threat in this fashion is the only issue that should be addressed.

The question of Irelands neutrality is really one of politics not military (we are too small to have anything useful to do with the former). In political circles Ireland has cast aside neurality without pause or question when benifit or profit was to be had.

bugler · 11-06-2001 6:05pm

Originally posted by Magwitch:
In the scale of things Irelands UN contribution is small and a huge fuss is made out of it by the Irish state media (the blarney you just quoted) and Government.

So you don't know who Robert Fisk is, do you? Mid-East correspondent for the Independent(UK), winner of the Orwell award 1999 for outstanding political writing, author of 'Pity the Nation' regarded by many as the definitive book on the Lebanese war. Still its a load of old blarney isn't it? After all, such an award would be below the likes of you. So thats you putting your foot in it once.

An impresion is given that the world respects Ireland. Patently untrue. We are a speck of a nation and our UN duties reflect that. I would suggest you read foreign papers more.

First of all, all I read is foreign newspapers, the Irish papers do not interest me much.I read the UK papers in particular, and indeed I read alot from very many news websites.Please stop making arrogant, ignorant assumptions about others.
Secondly, Irish troops have been praised by almost all the heads of the UNIFIL expedition.They have often physically brawled with SLA men to prevent the ill disciplined militia from moving as it pleased into muslim areas.I don't think very many of the muslim population of Irishbatt's region would agree that the Irish soldiers did nothing in the name of peace, but hey after all,they only live there, your the one with all the knowledge here.Again you step in it, once more if not twice.

The Irish abroad in the UN are powerless to defend themselves and hence casualties have been the result.

No they are not.The UN rules of engagement are strict and no doubt place the UN troops at a disadvantage but they do not leave the soldiers without the power to defend themselves.I'm slightly embarrassed for you now.

Your mention of having relatives who served abroad with the UN is nothing more than a blatant attempt to lend credence to your views, which is not deserved.

[This message has been edited by bugler (edited 11-06-2001).]

Magwitch · 11-06-2001 8:52pm

"Show some respect for those Irishmen who have died for UN peace keeping."

- you assume or infer I disrespect Irishmen who died wearing the Irish armies uniform? I would not dain to make such a sickening slur against anyone, especially an Irishman.

"Please stop making arrogant, ignorant assumptions about others."

- High toned to say the least but in light of your own comments very deluded.

bugler · 11-06-2001 9:38pm

I can't think of any slur more sickening than to say that they gave their lives for nothing, and they served no purpose while on peacekeeping duty.

How about responding(or at least trying to) to points rather than fobbing them off?

Green Party is a Hoax

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