The degredation of the english language

Celt · 10-05-2001 12:06am #1

Is the internet, and more specifically chat killing the english language? SMS are one thing, but posting like this on a forum is almost beyong belief. I mean they can spell, why dont they? Writing like that just make them look stupid and like a jackass. So tell me why do you write like this?

Stephen · 10-05-2001 12:41am

I don't.

Magwitch · 10-05-2001 1:08am

I agree. Abreviation has its place, but not in discussion where one wishes to put a point across.

In general the level (or quality) of literacy is falling badly. I am tired of reading Irish people who spell American or "MicroSoft" english. Really sad.

Keep your powder dry and your pants moist

harVee · 10-05-2001 1:15am

The single most annoying mistake that I come across daily on these boards is the mixing up of you're and your. Generally people use your all the time.
Stop it now.

RopeDrink · 10-05-2001 3:49am

Very common thing, and it will not end so long as the evil evil Internet persists...

...things such as "lol" and "tbh" or "bbl" etc...

I try my best not to do it, myself, but I find that it saves a hefty ammount of time (Which, I wager, Is what it's used for) yet, still degrades the language as a whole...

Nothing much can be done, unless you want to cut everyones fingers off, or nip their keyboards...

Excelsior · 10-05-2001 9:29am

I can see where you all are coming from but you don't really have a leg to stand on in any long term perspective.
Language is our medium for communication.
English is a language.
Languages evolve.
English evolves.
Now we may not like the fact that sms-speak is becoming acceptable in mediums that are not sms, we may not like the TLA (three-letter-acronym) phenomenon, and we may not like the proliferation of swear words into the everyday vocabulary... but if english speaking people adopt them, then english will become them.
Shakespeare wrote english as he knew it. Now darned if I can understand some of his verses first, second or even third time around.
In colonial America, the absolute worst insult one could throw at an enemy in good company was "Slobberchops."
So while it is intensely irritating to see sms-speak in particular, it isn't a BAD thing per sé.
Or as many web people spell it, per say.
And I don't mind americanisms at all. That is not a problem to me. Whatever way you color it, it still is understandable.
And that is what it comes down to. Coherence and understanding- communication and lucidity.

Actually, 50 years ago it was grammatically incorrect to start sentences with And and But.
I think it was only officially allowed in 1997.
50 years ago it was uncommon and frowned upon, therefore it didn't aid communication. As its use grew and developed it became accepted and didn't cloud language at all. (Debatable perhaps?) As a result, it is now accepted.

Cliches... now there is something we can get angry about at the end of the day! Fair play in fairness, like, you know what I mean?

My Adolescent website:
http://www.iol.net/~mullent

Baz_ · 10-05-2001 9:55am

Damn you Excelsior *me shakes fist*...

I was about to say something very similar, and if the admins ever do install the hack for changing topic titles, I think this should be renamed "The evolution of the english language".

Whitelancer trust me when I say that in a year from now you will be talking and communicating differently to the way you do now, in 5 years time, it will be much differently, and in 50 years time (assuming you live that long) you couldn't even imagine how you will be communicating then.

Every nations language (at least in developed countries) must be in a state of flux at the moment. It is almost impossible to resist the influence of technology, the internet, sms and basically anything which makes life easy.

Now in saying all that I resist the changes myself, trying to speak and communicate as properly and correctly for as long as I can, but I know the changes will creep in I know they are insidious but I don't mind, and I don't mind other people talking "futuristically".

Baz_

Shinji · 10-05-2001 9:57am

Indeed... Language evolves. While I do believe that a lot of the rubbish spelling and grammar which we see online is a product of sheer laziness (not so much evolution as devolution) it's worth noting that a huge number of people online, young and old alike, still insist on spelling and formatting messages correctly. It's worthwhile - when you need to make yourself heard in a medium with a billion other people clamouring for attention, making your messages clear, well formatted and easy to read is one of the best ways to do it.

That being said, I believe that the acronyms and new words being invented online are genuine evolution - words like "leet" and "pe0n" have passed into vocabulary very quickly, and I've heard them used by people whom I know for a fact have never touched IRC in their lives...

One thing of interest is that the Internet will undoubtedly speed up the evolution of language, as people across the world are put in contact with each other constantly. We're the first generation to be in contact with the rest of the world constantly - our communities never sleep, our planet is our village. I have no idea where this will lead us; nor does anyone else. But it's going to be a fun ride getting there.

[This message has been edited by Shinji (edited 10-05-2001).]

Bard · 10-05-2001 9:57am

Originally posted by Excelsior:

Actually, 50 years ago it was grammatically incorrect to start sentences with And and But.
I think it was only officially allowed in 1997.

Um... "officially allowed"???... by whom?

Bard

"We do know it was we who scorched the sky..."

--Kaiser-- · 10-05-2001 10:05am

I get slightly annoyed when people make spelling mistakes, but it is understandable.

What really annoys me is when someone posts something with little or no punctuation, or regard for correct grammer, the end result is an infuriating message that is impossible to understand, and i don't like re-reading posts to try to guess what the neanderthal tried to write.

Canaboid · 10-05-2001 10:42am

Far from killing the English language I would think the Internet/email/chat has revived a dying method of communication, the written word. It used to be everyone wrote letters to communicate there was no other way when distance was a factor. With the advent of telephone, written communication started to slide, and with it the art of good writing (grammer, syntax etc.)
Along comes d'internet and all of a sudden the trend is reversed, people are writing again and as shinji mentioned if you want to be heard you have to write clearly.

WhiteWashMan · 10-05-2001 10:50am

um now this is something ive said before.
we know english evolves and changes.
its the sign of a living language.
and i have no problem with people who are dyslexic.
i do have a problem with lazy people who cant be arsed to spell properly.
you can tell the difference because dyslexic people will usually make the same mistakes, and will swap letters about. they also will generally know how sentence is contructed and will keep to that. i f|*ckin hate people that post who lose all intrest in syntax and things they write comes out like some sort of cryptic crossword clue.
and i really have people who dont use punctuation (yes you elexes!)
it doesnt take 2 seconds to look at your post and go, yep, i can understand that.
some of the stuff postd on these boards are really bloody irritating.
however, there seems to be a great trend to blame dyslexia on every spelling mistake now.
it seems theres only handful of us that dont have it, now that cant be right, can i?
oh, and if anyone wants to point out any of my faults, i cant be arsed to use capitals. but thank god, thats not yet punishable by death, yet....

TwoShedsJackson · 10-05-2001 10:51am

Originally posted by WhiteLancer:
Is the internet, and more specifically chat killing the english language? SMS are one thing, but posting like this on a forum is almost beyong belief. I mean they can spell, why dont they? Writing like that just make them look stupid and like a jackass. So tell me why do you write like this?

Have you considered the possibility that people make mistakes? For example, I think you meant 'beyond' not 'beyong' in your post.

Additionally, it's 'degradation', not 'degredation', as per your topic title.

In summary, relax.

Shinji · 10-05-2001 12:52pm

Actually, 50 years ago it was grammatically incorrect to start sentences with And and But.
I think it was only officially allowed in 1997.

I had missed this until Bard pointed it out... However, yes - officially allowed by whom, exactly?

The vast majority of magazines will sub-edit sentences starting with "and" or "but" to something more gramatically palatable. I don't have a huge problem with them myself, but they're still poor grammar, and I wouldn't like to let one slip past in CTW, for example - it's simply unprofessional, and certainly not "officially allowed", as I'm sure you'd find if you tried using a sentence like that in Leaving Cert English...

WhiteWashMan · 10-05-2001 1:11pm

Originally posted by Shinji:
I had missed this until Bard pointed it out... However, yes - officially allowed by whom, exactly?

The vast majority of magazines will sub-edit sentences starting with "and" or "but" to something more gramatically palatable. I don't have a huge problem with them myself, but they're still poor grammar, and I wouldn't like to let one slip past in CTW, for example - it's simply unprofessional, and certainly not "officially allowed", as I'm sure you'd find if you tried using a sentence like that in Leaving Cert English...

i did my leaving cert well before 97 sonny jim !

D-Generate · 10-05-2001 6:08pm

Originally posted by harVee:
The single most annoying mistake that I come across daily on these boards is the mixing up of you're and your. Generally people use your all the time.
Stop it now.

Your the only 1 annoys :P
No really it annoys me too. Seeing so many people typing like "dont"

Celt · 10-05-2001 8:57pm

Originally posted by Castor Troy:
Have you considered the possibility that people make mistakes? For example, I think you meant 'beyond' not 'beyong' in your post.

Additionally, it's 'degradation', not 'degredation', as per your topic title.

In summary, relax.

My post clearly was not about spelling mistakes and typo's, it was about people saying things like "ur" "no" "u" "c" and all that other laziness crap. English will not evolve into this because it is not clear what is meant half the time.
In conclusion:
I was not talkin about acronym's, or new words made up on the internet, it was the way some people seem to type(i remember a while back some newbie came on and typed like above, he was flamed, his friend said he only did it because he seen everyone else doing it) as if they only have 5 seconds to type and fúck grammer or even legibility.

Karl Hungus · 10-05-2001 9:14pm

your gimps
y u bother 2 post dis

real speak takes 2 long
y u not sp3ak "Hax0r"

h@x0r is quiker & funner

-VL-Eight-Ball · 10-05-2001 10:26pm

I'd say the problem has always been present, we just don't get to see peoples spelling and grammar uncorrected as much offline.

WhiteWashMan · 10-05-2001 11:54pm

Originally posted by Castor Troy:
In summary, relax.

hehehe, now what has gotten into you?
relax?
ou finally decided to grow old gracefully?

Chubby · 11-05-2001 12:37am

I have to agree with Canaboid, the internet and email has revived the written word as a method of communication. Surfing the net and reading newsgroups are also making people read a lot more than they normally would in front of the tv. Plus intolerant individuals are so quick to point out grammar and spelling mistakes that it can help people who weren't even aware they were making mistakes.

SantaHoe · 12-05-2001 1:25am

Originally posted by --Kaiser--:
I get slightly annoyed when people make spelling mistakes

im shuer u wownt lieks dis tehn?

What I find worse than lazy spellers, are the people who are obsessed with 100% perfect grammar and punctuation in every sentence... even on IRC.
*cough* X_OR *cough*

Trojan · 12-05-2001 2:34am

I dunno, this mobile revolution, or whatever you want to call it, has done a lot to motivate illiterate people to read.

Some may find it hard to believe the amount of people in our soceity who cannot read: 1 in 4 people in rural areas, and 1 in 10 in urban areas. Those are hard to believe (but true, they are correct).

I know one guy who asked to learn how to read explicitly because his gf bought him a phone and he needed to be able to text her back - he had never told her he couldn't read.

Personally I dont people taking shortcuts in electronic media, but I dont like it on paper.

One thing I cannot stand is when it actually takes an effort to understand what someone has just said, when the cause is bad spelling, grammar etc, e.g. the likes of posts from Joe22 et al.

Al. (not that al!)

[This message has been edited by Trojan (edited 12-05-2001).]

Hannah · 12-05-2001 9:20pm

After one reading I have come up with the following corrections, there's probably more,

degredation = degradation?
beyong = beyond?
grammer = grammar?
ive = I've?
postd = posted?
theres = there's?
cant = can't?
i = it?
peoples = people's?
soceity = society?

I know that some of these have already been corrected, but for people defending the correct usage of the english language you're not setting a very good example!. Also, now that we have spell checks there is really very little excuse for bad spelling.

Celt · 12-05-2001 10:14pm

Thank you Hannah for missing my whole point! I never use "'" when talking online because it just takes(') too much time and too much trouble. As for typos(') they happen all the time especially with me, I type too fast and I make a LOT of mistakes that way. Oh and using speechmaker tripled the amount of time it took to write this.

Above is the spellchecked version (it changed spellcheck to speechmake)

Bard · 12-05-2001 11:28pm

My question still stands, really. Who is it exactly that's supposed to have "officially allowed" starting "sentences with And and But", Excelsior? I'd love to know

Bard

"We do know it was we who scorched the sky..."

Hannah · 13-05-2001 1:18pm

sorry

, i didn't mean for you to take it seriously, i just got a laugh out of the irony of it all, and ok i take back my point on the spell check thing, it does take a long time but you could also just try reading posts before submitting.

Take it · 13-05-2001 2:47pm

Maybe went a bit over the top!!

[This message has been edited by Take it (edited 13-05-2001).]

Celt · 13-05-2001 4:05pm

It's a throwback to those days not so long ago when i was getting £100 a month phone bills and i didnt have a job

Truly time = money back then.

Excelsior · 14-05-2001 10:05am

Officially in that it was accepted by the Oxford dictionary.

Point stands, english has no governing body the way french has.
Excuse my mistake that offends you all so fundamentally.

My Adolescent website:
http://www.iol.net/~mullent

Lucy_la_morte · 14-05-2001 4:54pm

Yeah but surely for these people to type properly WhiteLancer. It could take them too long to type "are" instead of "r" because they do not type as quickly as yourself. Therefore your post is hypocritical to allow people away with grammatical errors (eg. Not using an apostraphe). I have no problem with people using incredible amounts of shorthand, I can read what they type faster - So it becomes easier for me. I prefere to write all my text in a 'psuedo-correct-english' fashion, as it makes it easier for me to think about what I type and switch between typing essays.

As for allowing the word "and" to head a sentence, I did not know that was allowed - Learn something new every day.

Non.

Lucy la morte.

[This message has been edited by Lucy_la_morte (edited 14-05-2001).]

Magwitch · 14-05-2001 5:55pm

Its not only the internet. TV has some really stupid and crass twists on the english language. The Heniken Green Energy concets on the go are called an Extravaganza but pronounced "Extravaganz-I-A" and the St.Patricks day advert on RTE prouncounces carnival are "Karn-e-val". I know this is just advertising but I hope that these "new" pronounciations do not make it into our collective vocabulary.

First person who pronounces either of those words in "TV" style to me is going to get a slap for being a weak minded fool.

Keep your powder dry and your pants moist

Celt · 14-05-2001 11:29pm

Not really, you can understand what i write, the people who use "r" and "u" etc. are often very hard if not nigh on impossible to understand.

sceptre · 15-05-2001 7:42pm

There's nothing wrong with beginning a sentence with a conjunction such as "and" or "but". The Oxford dictionary didn't allow anything of the sort in 1997 or any other year. The OED has not had a full update since the editions of 1932 and 1989. Also (quite similar to "and"), the OED is neither the ruler nor the guardian of the Engligh language. And that's all I have to say about that.

I don't believe personally that the Internet has led to a dwindling standard of written English. It exposes a lack of education that already existed. Thitherto, most people had very little reason to write almost anything after leaving school. Now they do.

When I write sms messages I tend to write uppercase/lowercase, using full words and commas where necessary, but that's a personal choice. I don't like "WAN2 GO 2C D MOV-E 2NITE" all that much, but can understand that on phones at least it makes it far easier to type. On a PC it makes it faster. Still have trouble reading it though.

--Kaiser-- · 16-05-2001 4:44pm

i have predictive text, so i type properly

Dun · 19-05-2001 9:01pm

When I write sms messages I tend to write uppercase/lowercase, using full words and commas where necessary, but that's a personal choice. I don't like "WAN2 GO 2C D MOV-E 2NITE" all that much, but can understand that on phones at least it makes it far easier to type. On a PC it makes it faster. Still have trouble reading it though.[/B]

I always have to read those things twice. I have predictive text as well, and find use of all capitals and/or abbreviations hard to read.

I started getting worried when I almost used 'lol' out of chatting - since then, I've noticed other people doing it as well.

The whole internet is too Americanised - I think the Yanks take the idea of European (Irish/British) English as a joke.

ecksor · 26-05-2001 11:03pm

Originally posted by Dead{o}Santa:
What I find worse than lazy spellers, are the people who are obsessed with 100% perfect grammar and punctuation in every sentence... even on IRC.
*cough* X_OR *cough*

I like to spell properly, and my grammer is ok. I did a touch typing course when I was 15 which thought me to type properly, so I have done since

*shrug*, get over it.

Bard · 26-05-2001 11:26pm

Originally posted by X_OR:
I like to spell properly, and my grammer is ok. I did a touch typing course when I was 15 which thought me to type properly, so I have done since

*shrug*, get over it.

Hate to point it out but there's two examples of bad grammar and one of bad spelling in that very post of yours.

Bard

First motorbike in the bible ???? - a Triumph! - 'And yea verily did Moses strike down the ammmanites, - and all the land did hear the roar of his triumph !!!'

Victor · 27-05-2001 1:33am

Originally posted by Bard:
Originally posted by X_OR:
I like to spell properly, and my grammer is ok. I did a touch typing course when I was 15 which thought me to type properly, so I have done since
*shrug*, get over it.

Hate to point it out but there's two examples of bad grammar and one of bad spelling in that very post of yours.

Yes, X_OR, you should be more careful.

You should know "grammer" is spelt "grammar".

I am unsure as to the convention regarding the use of "ok".

You should hyphenate "touch typing" ("touch-typing").

There should be a comma after "when I was 15" ("when I was 15,").

Of course, "thought" should be "taught".

The sentence should also end with a full stop.

The word "shrug" in "*shrug*" should be capitalised. The use of star symbols "*" is of course a new convention for Internet use. This 'action' should also end with a full stop or be on a separate line, as it is not part of a sentence.

The word "get" in "get over it" should be capitalised and the expression "get over it" should have an exclamation mark following it, not a full stop.

Our next exercise will be examining Bard's counting abilities.

/me buys full VIP armour and prepares for inbound missiles.

Changing call sign to SIERRA PAPA OSCAR OSCAR FOXTROT.

[This message has been edited by Victor (edited 27-05-2001).]

nard · 27-05-2001 1:56pm

u eh jerk u!

i was ehhhh gonna point those grammatical errors ou to yurman.

anyway.

My point:
I find it quite proper and acceptable for people to use sms-speak (1984?) while text-messaging and/or irc'ing, while still maintaining a high level of grammatical efficiency when typing proper-speak.

Some of the most intelligent and literate people will be seen sending almost unintelligible (to some) text/irc messages.

When in Rome ... ehhh eat pasta

ps. pack of jerks makin me all paranoid loike

[This message has been edited by nard (edited 27-05-2001).]

ecksor · 27-05-2001 9:50pm

Originally posted by Bard:
Hate to point it out but there's two examples of bad grammar and one of bad spelling in that very post of yours.

I was distracted.

Thorbar · 28-05-2001 4:23pm

Far from killing the English language I would think the Internet/email/chat has revived a dying method of communication, the written word.

I'm curious as to how long this will last. If broadband becomes the common type of connection (this mightn't happen as soon as one would think with all the cable companies crashing over in the US) then I think verbal communication would again become the dominate form of converse between people be in it games or chat rooms. IRC and forums will remain but I can see their use decreasing as sound and image becomes a realistic form of communicating over the net.

Celt · 29-05-2001 1:59am

A very good point...

Bard · 29-05-2001 12:41pm

Originally posted by Victor:

Our next exercise will be examining Bard's counting abilities.

/me buys full VIP armour and prepares for inbound missiles.

Actually, I had meant to say "at least 2 -..." but - well, I forgot to.

Picking at the mistakes and the spelling of others isn't a particularly nice thing to do anyway unless it's done constructively and helpfully and that criticism is wanted.

Fnar.

Bard

First motorbike in the bible ???? - a Triumph! - 'And yea verily did Moses strike down the ammmanites, - and all the land did hear the roar of his triumph !!!'

Victor · 29-05-2001 7:19pm

/me tries to look innocentt.

Changing call sign to SIERRA PAPA OSCAR OSCAR FOXTROT.

Victor · 31-05-2001 9:20pm

LOL

Changing call sign to SIERRA PAPA OSCAR OSCAR FOXTROT.

WhiteWashMan · 31-05-2001 11:00pm

Originally posted by Victor:

/me tries to look innocentt.

theres only one t in innocent

One Of your Imps Does A Good Impersonation Of You
He Can Even Do The Ears.....

Bard · 31-05-2001 11:17pm

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan:
theres only one t in innocent

If you're gonna be picky, he didn't say "innocent", he said "innocentt" ... and there's two t's in that

Of course... it's not ... actually... a word

damn

Bard

Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.

nesf · 31-05-2001 11:26pm

One could always view it as a higher level of communication, why limit yourself to mere words that exist in dictionaries??

Ackelsz!!

Thorbar · 01-06-2001 4:35pm

One could always view it as a higher level of communication, why limit yourself to mere words that exist in dictionaries??

Have you read any of bossaway's posts?

Victor · 01-06-2001 4:44pm

From MSN / Sky News

http://www.msn.co.uk/news/default.asp

"Themajority offamily doctors in the UKareready toresign unlessthey get new contracts to cut paperwork and give them extra time with their patients.Doctors' leaders said simply: They have had enough."

Changing call sign to SIERRA PAPA OSCAR OSCAR FOXTROT.

The degredation of the english language

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