Religion in Schools

Oh yeah

Somebody mentioned in another thread the close relationship between primary schools and Catholic teachings. Not sure if this debate has taken place before, if so just tell me to **** off and eat some flowers.

I went to a Christian Brothers school, and it was all Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Moses, Jesus, Samaritans... Every year the same little stories, always a reminder of how we should live our lives. Students were never given a real opertunity to think about it. You learned the prayers (prayer is the most pointless activity I've come across in all Catholicism... God gave us free will, and can't intervene in human affairs... so what's to be gained by praying for things to happen, to people, to ourselves). In secondary school (again for me a CBS), you're allowed to disagree as long as you don't really start to convert others to your heathen heathen ways..


I think that it should be discussed in schools but that organized belief systems are ****e. We can't all believe the same thing.

---

Looks to me like that grass could use a little H2Oh Yeah!

K!LL!@N

In my opinion, religion has no place in the education system. Religion should not be forced upon children, and is of no educational benefit to them. Practically every school in ireland takes the entire school go to mass several times a year ( an activity i was never very fond of ), and also makes them go to confession and other catholic ceremonies which are of no educational benefit.
I would only consider allowing religion be thought in schools, if they looked at all of the magor religions in detail and didn't push one religion or another down the kids throats. Even then i would only tolerate it because it would be educating children about the beliefs of others, and in that way i think it would have some educational benefit.
In secondary school, i found that we were given the chance to question catholicism, yet we still had to attend school masses. I found that rather confusing.
I could spend all night writing about why i think religion is a load of rubbish, but i couldn't be bothered. Needless to say, you do not need to be religious to live a good life and be respectful of others. You can do that all on your own, as i'm sure many of you do.

Belisarius

Well this isnt my field but as far as I see it If you go to a Catholic school your basically going to be taught the Catholic Manifesto , And in that sense its perfectly acceptable , the problem is However that the Catholic education formed a considerable bock of the educational institution in what was and still is a Catholic nation . This was permitted by sucsessive governments as a nice way to cut down the burden of cost of maintaining a Educational infastructure and at the same time providing quality schooling on a national scale , This actually happened but left a massive shortfalling in schools which were in no way affiliated with any faith , but what could not be seen was the great backlash in Ireland against Catholocism , So what were left with is a nation of Skeptical lapsed catholic with nowhere to send thier progeny to be educated but a Catholic system , So really the you can only pin the blame on the governments of old for not providing a responsible Service , not the Catholic church for filling in the gaps . I mean anything else is just a bit naieve

---

Shrewgar!

Stephen

I think I was the one who brought this up in another thread....

Anyway, yes, I disagree with religion being taught in schools - that kind of thing should be left to the home. I attended a CBS primary and a CBS secondary school. Primary school religion was basically being force fed prayers and reciting them mindlessly, with the obligatory few school masses through the year as Oh Yeah said above.

Secondary school religion was more funny than anything else. In fifth and sixth year I had an ageing christian brother for religion class. He is one of the most arrogant, inconsiderate men I have ever met. He just read mindlessly from the religion book and went a bit mad whenever anyone questioned Catholicism or christianity in general

I just finished up in that school last week - doing my leaving cert in a couple of weeks now - and guess what they had for the sixth years' graduation? Yes, a mass (sigh).

I wasn't all that enthusiastic about it, being completely nonreligious, but you're generally expected to just fall in line and go through the motions to satisfy the powers that be.

in summary, religion should be kept separate from school and state.

---

- Munch

K!LL!@N

You're right Belisarius, the government is responsible for allowing religious orders carry the burden of educating our nation. But the number of schools, that are still run by religious orders, today, must surely have dwindled to the point of being negligible. I know a lot of schools still bear the names of these orders, but they are run by "lay" people ( i always found that amusing how a non-religious order principle or teacher was referred to as a "lay" priniciple/teacher. ). My point is that there is no need to continue teaching catholicism in schools today.
Do any of you ever remember there being a kid in your class who didn't have to attend mass or do any of the other religious activities? I think there was one guy in my class for a while who didn't have to go to mass and used to stay back in the school.
How do schools look upon requests from parents that their children take no part in religious activity within the school?

p

I think that a general religion class would be a good idea IMO. It could be the kind of class that really brings up a lot of topics and debates hopefully in an informal manner.

We learned a bit about the Koran in Religion class however it was trivial stuff that wouldn't interest most people. Ignored were the key elements of their belief, unfortunately.

- Kevin

Manach

I'd be in favour of religion in schools.
It does promote a sense of values and morals.
If it were removed a vacuum would be created which no doubt would be filled by the governement pushing the values of what every party is in power or perhaps even the private sector (No Logo).
On the other hand, if religion were removed in total from schools (ie as in American Public system) it would become a more emotive issue.

Dont be at yourself

I'm a 3rd year student in your average secondary school...

Anyway, I was baptised a roman catholic but I don't believe in God(s) etc. I don't practise any religion. I'm an athiest. I've told my religion teacher this much. Yet I must sit through 2 hours of religion classes every week.

Its not helping me become a better person. Basically, what this religion class entails is drawing pictures of what God's bedroom looks like (no lie). Its a joke.

I feel sorry for similarly-minded people who are going to have to sit a religious exam. I have no interest in it, I don't believe in it, its not going to help me in life, its a waste of time - time that could be better spent elsewhere.

Having a state religous exam is ridiculous. It excludes many students, makes them feel left-out. They'll grow up thinking that its wrong to not be roman-catholic. They'll think that Ireland is pro-roman catholic, anti-everything else. Ireland is supposed to be a multi-racial, multi-religous nation -how is this so if we are embracing one religion and shunning the rest?

---

Fear can sometimes be a useful emotion. For instance, let's say you're an astronaught on the moon and you fear that your partner has been turned into Dracula. The next time he goes out for the moon pieces, wham! You just slam the door behind him and blast off. He might call you on the radio and say he's not Dracula, but you just say, "Think again, bat man."
hello.

Celt

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Manach:
It does promote a sense of values and morals.
</font>

Bull****.

Kali

Just a few points.. i had 2 hours of religion in my school a week as well, was a school run by priests, but the religion classes were just basically civics as i think its called now.
The classes encouraged debate about various religions, current topics etc. and dealt with moral and other issues, murder/drugs/abortion/ truely interesting classes looking back now.

I'm well in favour of a general religion class as I've just described, and as already mentioned by a few ppl they way Catholicism is thrust on youngsters at a very early age is the most offputting thing of all.

and whats this about a religion exam? do some people have to do that, as part of the national system or just within the school as christmas/summer tests?
seems way over the top, and very painful.

I also find it quite disturbing what NekkidBibleMan said, in that hes an athiest at such an early age, not to blame yourself for such a closed mind, its more likely the poor religion classes you mentioned that are the cause for this, rather than exposing you to (for want of a better phrase) spiritualness in your life, I hope you look into some things later in life, as knowledge of other beliefs such as buddhism or hinduism really does give you a different view on the spiritual side of things.. even if you dont necessarily want to follow any of them.

and whitelancer please **** off with your informative and enlightening posts.

[This message has been edited by Kali (edited 20-05-2001).]

Karl Hungus

Religion has NO place in Schools...
Now, I was Christian when I was in School, and since I have finished, I have found that I made my own descisions about my faith, without have one view shoved down my throat.
I have since given up any form of religion.

I think another reason for religion in schools, OTHER than the government, is quite a lot of preasure from the Church to be there in the first place.
They would veiw it as their most powerful indoctrination centre.
It's tabboo anyway, the church has always been in the schools.
It's the absolute BEST oportunity they have to shape (Or is that warp?) the minds of children who are at a very early stage of developement.
This then goes on to the children tell their parents about it.
The "I'm right and you're wrong" mentality of Christianity is forced at a very young age.

ONE Savior. ONE True God. ONE Correct Religion. ONE way. MY Way. NOT Yours.

I remember being about 8 or 9 years old, and this kid started new at School.
Now this guy didn't beleive in God.
He was beaten up on a regulat basis BECAUSE he didn't beleive in god.

No, I do NOT think it should be any part of School.

TwoShedsJackson

Written by Primo Levi, and which I fully agree with:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Nothing is of greater vanity than to force oneself to swallow whole a moral system elaborated by others, under another sky</font>

Make up your own mind, then live with your choice.

zeemoud

we should teach good morals, self-respect, self-esteem, respect and we should teach them from an early age that whatever they do should not harm society and if they can help society even better.overall the general ideals behind maby religion is peace,fraternity and respect as well as the above.its just that it is overcrowded with many tales and drawn out examples

Belisarius

Again the continuing trend here is that were all the product of a catholic education . Now while I abhore religous involvement in mainstream education it should be taken as a given that those who attend a Catholic school should expect teaching in Catholic Doctrine , In most other countries the Catholic education tier is reguarded as "specialist" market , For those parents who wish theyre children to be brought up in a religously concious enviornment . The same should be true here except the catholic church has filled an unusually large portion of educational institutions in Ireland , Now this is the fault of a complacent government and at the time a compliant population however theese days people value an Objective education , but theyres still a reluctance on the part of the government to make up for lost time by putting in place a cohesive education infastructure . So still we have a tradition of sending our Kiddies to Church sponsored schools ,where they grow up to resent such a biased view . But again its nobodies fault apart from the government for not being responsible. It can only be expected from the church after all theyre its schools , and Parents couldnt have forseen such a trend against the Church in Ireland.

---

Shrewgar!

azezil

I went to St. Kieran's College Kilkenny, n they made it quite clear in the interview (to get in) that it was a catholic school and unless you're a member of some other religion you'd be expected to participate in religious class's etc.

I think thats fair enough, as in these religion classes we didn't consentrate solely on christianity, but on most of the other major religions aswell.

I found it an interesting topic, to hear about other ppl's beliefs etc., even though I don't believe myself!

---

"just because ur not paraniod, doesn't mean they're not after u!"

Illkillya

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by AngelWhore:
I remember being about 8 or 9 years old, and this kid started new at School.
Now this guy didn't beleive in God.
He was beaten up on a regulat basis BECAUSE he didn't beleive in god.
</font>

I don't believe that for one thing, if he was beaten up on a regular basis, it was most likely because of his personality, I have been to about 10 schools and I never met a 9 year old who would beat up another for not believing in God.

I think religion is a good thing to have in schools, but not strictly Catholic. All national schools teach the Catechism, and that should be scrapped, especially the questions:

Q: Who is the greatest of all Gods creatures on Earth?
A: Man and woman are the greatest of all Gods creatures because they are made in the image and likeness of God.

or something..
That is brainwashing, but there is definitely a need for moral guidance in schools... is that covered in Civics? They have tried to make the religion "course" broader and more modern, covering other religions and less Old Testament etc, but too many Irish religion teachers are named Sr. Genevieve, and as long as the Catholic teaching remains, all other parts of the course will take a lesser importance.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by zeemoud:

we should teach good morals, self-respect, self-esteem, respect and we should teach them from an early age that whatever they do should not harm society and if they can help society even better.overall the general ideals behind maby religion is peace,fraternity and respect as well as the above.its just that it is overcrowded with many tales and drawn out examples</font>

Well said, thats it exactly. This is also what they're aiming for in the schools, and from what I have seen, there is a new breed of young, entusiastic religion teachers who will help to make religion better.

typical Quote from religion class 2 years ago which I remember (roughly):

<Sr.Angela> Because its in the bible!!
<Robbie> Yes Sr., I just don't fully believe in what is being said
<Sr.Angela> If you don't believe in the bible then you shouldn't be here! get out you pup!!

Winning Hand

Actually I disagree with the obvious sentiment that religion has no place in schools. I believe religion should be taught in schools, gives people a sense of what is right and wrong.

Hey whitelancer, why do you think its bullsh*t? Do you think that being taught "thou shalt not kill" from an early age is wrong? Do you think that being told at an early age that living a good life pays off, be it later in life or in another life is wrong? Dont make a pointless comment like

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Originally posted by Whitelancer
bull****</font>

And not elaborate. If you have an opinion then say it, no need for shyte like that.

So what if people hate religion class, personally I found it really boring. Anyway in my last two years of school I distinctly remember a lack of "religion" per se actually being taught, more of debates over social issues. Anyway IMO its better to be taught it and make your own decision than not to be taught religion feel like you lost out when you become "born again"

---

Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will.
I sure could use a vacation from this....
bull****

Illkillya

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Winning Hand:
Actually I disagree with the obvious sentiment that religion has no place in schools. I believe religion should be taught in schools, gives people a sense of what is right and wrong.
</font>

that is the not obvious sentiment at all... read above

C B

With whom does the responsibility for education (in its widest sense) lie? Two possible answers to this question;
1. The State
2. The Parents

If we accept that the state is responsible we are again left with two options,
A. Imposes the social mores of the mathemathical majority onto the children of the entire society
B. Sanitise the education process so it becomes a base vocational training camp (the option prefered by most posters so far)

However if we allow parents to decide upon the format and content of their childrens education (in addition to the basic state proscribed cirriculum) we are more likely to achieve a holistic system of education.

P.S. I was educated by the Christian brothers
(my parents choice) and I have sent my own child to a multi denominational school.

DadaKopf

Hmmmm, interesting topic. Education is the single most important thing in any political framework - Plato recognised it, John Stuart Mill Recognised it, Marx recognised it, uh, Tony Blair Recognised it. No need to go into it, everyone knows why it's important. But as C B pointed out: who has the power to shape people's opinions through education? Which is the fairest, most effective form of education?

I reckon theres a couple of forms of education; state education which should always be non-denominational (which leaves moral/religious teaching up to that community or the parents), religious schools which I think should always be private but monetarily accessible for anyone to attend so those who wish to send their kids to a religious school should get that opportunity (teachers should be statutorially paid) and then theres home teaching/vocation.

It's all tied in with the question of the purpose of teaching, isn't it? Is teaching a way of indoctrinating people or training them or simply giving them opportunities in life or is it about socialisation or what?

Personally, I wouldn't like to see any one kind of education dominant - the choice should always be there, and in this country is largely is, providing you have enough money for the more expensive schools. It very much depends on parents' aspirations and needs as well as the students'. I would assume that the Institute on Leeson St isn't the most ethically enriching school since it's focused on one thing and one thing only and for that they receive criticism but equally do the Christian Brothers - and nobody mentions Jewish or Muslem schools.

Bottom line: the choice should be there and that should be made law, it's in-keeping wth the spirit of the constitution but most certainly there must be a distinction between church and state. Teachers are state employees and should not be allowed to teach religion in maths class (to be figurative about it). So, all in all, if there's anyone to blame for pupils being caned for not knowing their bible stories, blame the parents.

Megatron

right , I've read most of this thread, then i had to express myself.
Religion class in primary schools are brain washing. Now i attended these stupid and pointless classes, if they were for reaferming the morals inside of you then fine , they were not they were to get you to learn prayers that is it. I never once enjoyed one of those classes other than i knew it was going to be a doddle to do.
When i reached secondry school again these stupid religion classes continued, at christmas when the chrimbo exams were taking place we were told there would be a religion exam .. so first year yes i did them and did what i was told.
Then Come second year i just refeused to even enter the exam, saying that it was testing to see if i believed in god,i remember to this day, that the teacher was none to please about this, so i was put on detention for it, and was kept on untill i did the test. So i spoke to my parents about this, and my mother was mortified that i didn't do the test, my father listen then agreed that i had a moral point, so i didn't have to do the stupid test ( i mean what was going to be on the report god .... James must work harder if his soul is to be saved !!!) I few weeks later coming up to easter we were talking about redemptsion ( spll ???) and i pointed out that you could do what ever the hell you liked as you always had a reist give you absolution be fore you died, and that God ( according to scripture) would always forgive !!!

anyway come 4th year ( TYO = Transision year or Take year off) the religion classes changed, and we actualy could say and do what we wanted with the class once it pretained to a discissuion about moral\religous issue , That once year taught me that religion is neede by us humans mostly to accept death when it comes, and that everyone should have the freedom to chosse , however that is not always the case.

BTW i was in a CBS (Joyes in Fairview) that class was the best thing about 4th year , now the lay out of the class has changed ,one of my brothers is there and in 4th year and he does nothing like this in his class.

AS for Religion having a place in School , yes it does. But as for being taugh by teachers ( Force fedd more like it) no absofragging loutly not ...
I@M A Christian i believe in a God, sure he doesn't do much, but once you have someting to believe in then most people are happy.


Well that's my 2 euros' worth thrown in ....

Have fun people ...


Because the end has come !!!!!

End of message !!!

---

No !!!!! I will crush you with my Bare hands.
P.S. Avator fromerly know as Gamblor !!

Dont be at yourself

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kali:
and whats this about a religion exam?</font>

Its been added to the list of subjects for the junior cert - luckily, I've missed out on it. Its disgraceful that they're examining on one reilgion.

I think the general religion class you described would be great. Don't get me wrong, when i say i'm an athiest it doesn't mean i'm closed minded - i find some faiths quite interesting. I would like to learn about them, but its not very accessable.

A class where you learned of all different faiths and customs would be far more valuable than what's being taught at the moment. And nobody would be excluded. It would allow people to make up their own minds with regards to religion rather than having to follow whatever religion they were born into.

---

Fear can sometimes be a useful emotion. For instance, let's say you're an astronaught on the moon and you fear that your partner has been turned into Dracula. The next time he goes out for the moon pieces, wham! You just slam the door behind him and blast off. He might call you on the radio and say he's not Dracula, but you just say, "Think again, bat man."
hello.