After May Day in Dublin...

DadaKopf · 03-05-2001 12:28am #1

In spite of the other May Day protests throughout the world, Ireland's one remained disciplined and peaceful and to the point. First people picketed the Irish Stock Exchange then peacably marched to the Dáil after which they dispersed. Following that, everyone was invited to a meeting in Trinity to discuss the situation.

Regardless of the international situation, and specifically relating to the implications of further European integration, what does anyone see as the next stage in Ireland to make it more egalitarian and socially/environmentally aware (for those who care)?

A report out recently exposed how British and Irish people are more concerned about health and education issues while the rest of Europe is acutely environmentally aware.

Regardless of further protests, thrashing McDonalds or any crap like that, is the best approach for starters a revitalisation of civic duties and the importance of voting? Get the right people in and get the right people running and things can edge towards changing at least.

I suppose I'm just asking the question: should voting be made compulsory and do voters have any power at all?

"I collect spores, moulds and fungus."

Magwitch · 03-05-2001 12:50am

There is no comparison between the other European protests and the Dublin Mayday protest. The "revolutionary" agenda in this country has been hijacked by the sad dropouts and die hards of "Socialist Worker".

Two reasons why it was peacful are 1. the above. Nobody wants to stand around being preached to by SW. 2. After the violence and vandalism caused by SW during the Taxi protests thay are keeping a low profile. 3. The most radical thing students in this country can think about is fees, politics does not matter on campus anymore unless its mainstream in some way (i.e. has a career or influence at the end of it).

A symptom of a national illness both here and to come I think. Sorry to be so pesimistic but I know a few "hard core" anarchists and their arguments do not cut the mustard. If they really gave a damn they could get at least one elected rep to local government.

Keep your powder dry and your pants moist

DadaKopf · 03-05-2001 1:05am

Well, I get your point loud and clear.

Like every legitimate and relevant protest in dublin, it gets hijacked by the bloody SWizzies. I was there and I'm pretty sure that despite the TU-heads, SWizzies and other anarchist organisations, there was a large number if non-affiliated people, concerned citiezend, individuals, students - many of them foreign. There was even a French organisation, Attac, there.

Ireland hasn't a tradition of spontaneous, violent protests like Britain or Europe but that's ok. For anyone who was there, despite the Socialist rhetoric etc., the resounding point was the importance for every person in Ireland to get involved in politics by voting. If the right people vote and the right people run for election, things can change in the only way proper Irish people know how - institutionally. Vote!

I think Ireland needs a stong Green party to counteract the cronyism and conservatism of every other party. Europe has seen the rise of the greens bigtime. Ireland needs it too.

C B · 03-05-2001 9:14am

Unfortunately dada in politics there is only one absolute truth. "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutly"

When an organisation gets big enough to have any influence it is too large to control and will have careerists.

btw I am totally opposed to the May Day protests. In my short walk through town yesterday to change buses i came accross no less the 15 discarded posters and almost all the lampost in the north inner city have been infected by those horrible platic tie thingies. Why didn't you and your cronnies spend a few hours picking up litter or visiting the elderly or volunterring in a health clinic or homework club, or anything constructive? The SWP are ********s who have nothing to contribute. The May Day protests are a pointless excuse for middle class *******s to break loose and have a good old fashioned riot that they can tell their kids about in 30 years when there fully qualified accountants and middle managers.

this rant is not aimed at you dada or anybody else who feels that society need a fundemental reallignment - just those who are unwilling to constuct something better.

In answer to your question on voting: Yes it should be compulsory. As should attendance at publicly organised inclusive pre election debates, organised on a ward by ward basis.

JustHalf · 03-05-2001 9:51am

But isn't the fact that we are not forced to vote important? That we do not have to do something we don't want to?

It rained in San Francisco Wednesday evening, but the penguins were
still there Thursday morning, smiling broadly.

Evil Phil · 03-05-2001 10:07am

should voting be made compulsory and do voters have any power at all?

I don't know. Personally I feel that as a consumer (spender of money) I have more power then I do voting in elections: this is wrong but our 'leaders' don't have the guts to stand up to big business. Irish politics needs a good airing out. We've had the same politicians with the same agenda for what feels like decades. I can't tell the difference between the parties anymore.

Well I think I've made my point on the question of power, but voting is compulsory in Ireland. You're not forced to actually go and vote but your vote is still counted even if you spoil your ballot paper. So the same idiots get voted in time and time again. Bertie Ahern as expressed concern over the turn out for elections, particularly among the young voters. This is because of the apathy with our politicians that a lot of people are feeling.

If you want to do something about this you can always write to your T.D. or to Bertie's office. Letter writing can be a powerful tool, look and Amnesty International.

[This message has been edited by Evil Phil (edited 03-05-2001).]

bugler · 03-05-2001 12:15pm

Yeah, not many base their decision on important factors,more on personality or party-name identification.

As for the Greens emerging,I don't think so.
Sinn Feín the most likely to emerge as the strongest left-wing party,benefitting to various degrees depending on how the northern peace process goes.

Magwitch · 03-05-2001 3:02pm

I agree Bugler. The Greens are at best washy and fall back on old sociolist texts when hard politics and decisions are the order of the day. Not that they are commies, they just cannot operate as a party of State given the diversity of their membership. If they really went for it they would be split assunder by internal opinion and division by serious issues other than the environment and social/economic issues. They are, and will remain, a protest vote or the choice of those who get a headache when politics comes up at the dinner table.

Sinn Fein however are a different beast. Politically lean, idioligically driven and diciplined. They will make hugh inroads into the poorer areas around the country (especially Urban) where drugs and vandalism are issues (does anyone see the irony in that?). i.e. Appeal to a to date non-voting section of the population whom current political parties have left out in the cold (on celtic cubs). And thats alot of people.

The Mayday movement, for all it scattered intentions (for good or ill) suffers from the same paralysis as the Greens throughout Europe. And like the greens, do not have a long term future as a unified movement. But at least it has given food for thought and will do so for a while yet.

BUT if protests continue in the vein of the European demonstrations the anti-globalisation aganda will be sidelined as a "crank" movement or marginalised like the Lib Dems in England (but more so). A great pity.

DadaKopf · 03-05-2001 3:33pm

I think some of this goes back to something which was raised the other day which is quite true. (I'm not a fan of the SWP) but Kieran Allen noted that the capitalist system is "out of control". Whatever anyone believes on this issue, they would probably agree that it is out of control. The problem is: what can it be replaced with? Answer: nothing really. It can just be curtailed. Capitalism is probably the apitomy of human nature so there's probably no solution and probably no way to introduce something new. Just look at the mess Communism brought about all over the world.

I think the popularisation and mobilisation of anti-globalisation/anti-capitalism may in itself bring about a new breed of new-left, green parties (it's happeneing all over Europe and will hit here soon). It's a trend that has been growing in scope since the 60s.

Of course, protests can only go so far, and the violence definitely undermines the movement's legitimacy. It's wrong to think that this is all the result of a series of clandestine organisations who mobilise its members - marches are populated by normal people (I myself am not nor would be affiliated with anyone).

Working within the system, to change it, is the only real way for change. That's why voting is still as important as ever.

Evil Phil wrote: "Personally I feel that as a consumer (spender of money) I have more power then I do voting in elections"; yeah, the irony is that the big companies are more succeptible to market forces than ever but the boycotting of, say, Nike runners, in itself may deprive thousands of underpaid workers of their paltry but nevertheless essential subsistence wages. That's the other irony. There was an article in the Observer about this recently - more than ever, it stressed the importance of voting.

It's all fun to march through town, publically advertising problems in the world (no matter how hackneyed the slogans are) but the system's never going to be overthrown but it can be changed if the right people run and the right people vote. It should be compulsory. It's not in Ireland and as far as I know, the only European state in which is is compulsory is Belgium.

Milkman · 03-05-2001 4:05pm

Young people don't vote because there is no person or party that appeal to them, we are constantly bombarded by the media with corruption and white-collar crime, And do we see convictions and those F***ers going to jail?! In my opinion those B*****ds are there to serve us, they are the ones who most of us have decided should lead our country - In my opinion any of them caught breaking ANY law should automatically get double the maximum sentence that us 'citizens' would get.
Weed out the corrupt and jail them as an example. For a real washing out of old politicians and political views , we need to change the voting system. Instead of the system we have now of small-town politicians moving into government jobs because they have no willing competition locally, we change the system so that unless a candidate gets a certain amount of votes, they're OUT. This would atleast give an opportunity for new blood to enter the ranks of our corrupt and apathetic political system (possibly even to change it).
And no, I have never voted, and will not give MY vote untill I see a candidate that deserves MY vote.

Ahhhhh urge to kill fading.....fading ....gone!

Shinji · 03-05-2001 4:28pm

If you have never voted, you have no right to complain, you lazy twonk. "They're all corrupt" is a nice way of saying "I'm too f*cking lazy to get off my fat behind educate myself".

Jailing people for white collar crime is fundamentally stupid, prisons are overcrowded as it is and people who pose a genuine threat to others are being released early - now you want to put in people who aren't in the slightest bit dangerous, just dishonest, into prison, occupying a space that could be used to keep a rapist, murderer, mugger or genuinely hardened criminal safely under lock and key?

Get real, and get over your (frankly ludicrous) belief that prison is a "punishment". Prison is designed to rehabilitate people - a task at which it fails miserably - but its main role is to keep people who are dangerous to society, away from society.

Milkman · 03-05-2001 4:48pm

Originally posted by Shinji:
If you have never voted, you have no right to complain, you lazy twonk. "They're all corrupt" is a nice way of saying "I'm too f*cking lazy to get off my fat behind educate myself".

Hmmm.....just caus I don't vote doesn't mean you should assume that I'm uneducated in the realms of our political system or what our parties and candidates stand for.

Jailing people for white collar crime is fundamentally stupid,

the real threat to us as a nation is not the violent and petty crime, it is the large scale theft,corruption and lying to the public that is white collar crime. Men and women who are educated and should know better as appossed to badly educated poor and unprivileged people who sometimes have no other choice.
It is easy to stand on a podium and preach when you(one as apposed to just you) have no experience of quite how badly off and badly educated the 'problem members of society' are.
Education is the key to reducing down violent and petty crime
Prosecution is the key to reducing white-collar crime

Yossarian · 03-05-2001 5:13pm

Originally posted by Milkman:
badly educated poor and unprivileged people who sometimes have no other choice.

B0LL0X!

Shinji · 03-05-2001 5:45pm

the real threat to us as a nation is not the violent and petty crime, it is the large scale theft,corruption and lying

Don't talk sh|te, there's a good chap. How many people do you know who have been stabbed with a syringe by large scale theft, or raped and left for dead by corruption?

Men and women who are educated and should know better as appossed to badly educated poor and unprivileged people who sometimes have no other choice.

Unadulterated crap. In society as it stands today in western europe, there is NO excuse for violent crime, I don't care how "poor and unprivileged" you are... And lets face it, the definition of "poor and unprivileged" that we use in this part of the world is a bit of a joke anyway, isn't it?

have no experience of quite how badly off and badly educated the 'problem members of society' are.

Actually, the vast majority of real problem members of our society that I've come across dropped out of *FREE* education, refused any number of *FREE* government subsidised, taxpayer-paid courses to make them employable, and find that a life of crime and acting the bollix is more suited to their personalities. I'm sure there are some people out there who feel trapped in a life of crime, yeah, but whose fault is that?

There isn't anyone in this country who can't afford to feed themselves if they try, and there is nobody in this country who has an excuse for acts of physical violence against others or against the property of others in order to get money.

Education is the key to reducing down violent and petty crime

Before you can educate anyone, you need to show them that they need education - and in order to do that, you need to make it very clear that crime, dossing on the dole and so on are NOT valid alternatives to being educated and becoming useful members of society.

Prosecution is the key to reducing white-collar crime

Naturally they need to be prosecuted! But putting white collar criminals into prison is a waste of prison resources and taxpayers money. There are far better punishments which are far more suited to the crime.

Digital Tilmitt · 03-05-2001 8:10pm

Thrash McDonalds, its the only way people will recognise revolutionists, plus its a lot of fun bashing up Monopolists!

Booyaka

GreenHell · 03-05-2001 9:35pm

Ah shinji your a capitalist after me own heart.

As for the Irish may day protest saw a bit on the news didn't look the effective...

GreenHell · 03-05-2001 9:39pm

Originally posted by Milkman:
Hmmm.....just caus I don't vote doesn't mean you should assume that I'm uneducated in the realms of our political system or what our parties and candidates stand for.

But it does mean you should shut your face about them.

Excelsior · 03-05-2001 11:08pm

EMail campagns also work wonders.
(Who ever heard of the legend of Dave Bolger?)
But Dada, I am sorry I didn't go on Tuesday. I don't want to side up with the SW people and as a result I chose to stay in college and clean up a mess made last year by the afformentioned anarchist.
The Green Party do seem to be the guys that are most likely to do something about the gulfs opening in our society and I think with 3rd world debt and globalisation they really do have problems that can mobilise people.

In terms of voting, I say yes, make it compulsary. It would be great if people voted because they wanted to preserve their democracy and make an informed decision on their future, but that is not happening. At least if it was forced, people would spoil their vote which would send a message too.

My Adolescent website:
http://www.iol.net/~mullent

Shinji · 03-05-2001 11:31pm

Making voting compulsory is all very well, and probably a good thing in some respects... but what's the point in it if you can't make social and political education compulsory? You can lead a horse to water, but can you force the ba$tard to drink?

What's worse, people sitting at home and not voting, or people going out and voting without educating themselves about the issues involved, the parties and the candidates?

I'm *very* strongly in favour of everyone voting, I believe that anyone who does not is an absolute disgrace to their nation and to their history. However, I do have misgivings about the possibilities of the ignorant swinging the ballots... Not that this isn't what happens already...

DadaKopf · 04-05-2001 1:29am

Greenhell: just how "effective" do you want a May Day protest, or any protest for that matter? A few windows smashed? More? You only saw what one journalist and editor wanted you to see.

Amnesty writes letters and achieves many things; Dublin's protest had speeches by people like Kieran Allen and patricia McKenna as well as showing presence in the city.

I'm not trying to convince you either way, just to accept that journalism in itself isn't at all impartial.

And about your comment about Shinji's out-and-out capitalism: I don't even know Shinji's loyalties other than the few things I've seen him say but in this thread, he still gives a fairly sound argument on the voting issue. Ok, I'm sure you were messing but still...

"I collect spores, moulds and fungus."

Evil Phil · 04-05-2001 9:31am

I've been held up and robbed with a syringe, a terrifying experience with some very real danger. I have been robbed of my tax pounds by corrupt officials. It wasn't a violent crime but as a voter I'm trusting these people and they represent me, apparently. Which is worse? I don't know, neither is a victimless crime. However, I do know that some people on boards, including some on this thread, are also criminals because of their preferred method of *ahem* 'relaxing' at home, which is a victimless crime. One you could be prosecuted for. White collar crime should not go unpunished.

And you may say you've never voted but if your over 18 your vote is counted whether you use it or not. So you do vote (nyah). But I do think if you're so concerned then get active. There's more to politics then voting, go see your T.D. and give him a b*lloxing. Got to county council meeting and make requests. Write to the government stating that you feel there's nobody worth voting for because there's no new blood. If we want change then it's up to us to force change, nobody is going to do it for us.

Maybe we should form the Boards.ie party? I nominate Monty as Minister for Justice. Will anybody second that?

[edited to include this]

I recently go a newsletter thingy from Fianna Fail. There was one thing on it that caught me eye:

bahern@iol.ie

Wonder who that could be?

[This message has been edited by Evil Phil (edited 04-05-2001).]

SHADOW · 04-05-2001 10:06am

Originally posted by Milkman:
the real threat to us as a nation is not the violent and petty crime, it is the large scale theft,corruption and lying to the public that is white collar crime

Jesus...are you serious??? What kind of a paded priveledged life do you lead? Have you ever even been on O'Connell Street? Christ you have OBVIOUSLY never been mugged.

Clearly violent and petty crime are not a threat to the nation. But they sure as hell are a major threat to the society of our nation. I think that you will find, as shinji pointed out, that prisons are better suited to dealing with threats to society than threats to the nation.

I for one would prefer to see a serial rapist inside the one not massivly overcrowded cell left in Mountjoy than to see Charlie Haughey there. Ten times out of ten.

Shad

If the bottom falls out of your world, drink Andrews and the world will fall out of your bottom!!
games?

Milkman · 04-05-2001 1:55pm

Well spoken Figgy,
We've all kinda strayed from the point but, all I'm trying to get across is a few simple points and not a revolutionary action:

1/ penalise those in public service who abuse their powers...sentences,fines, something other that tribunal scams where everyone is given amnesty just to tell the truth. If those in powerful positions see that they will be Properly punished if caught -then maybe, just maybe we might be in a situation where they at least will be less likely to rip off the irish people.

2/ an emphasis on education, social and community , teach those in underprivilaged situations that there are other options - apart from crime...start this education young, adults who already have been amalgamated into a society of crime and violence are unlikly to change. The key is getting the next generation.

3/ make it easier for new candidates and ideas to put their voice forward for election. Like most of the 90's generation, I could not stand up for election, no matter how much I wanted, because of my choisen 'recreational lifestyle'.

this was all I was trying to say lads, maybe I should have articulated it better, but hopefully now you see the point I was trying to make - you may not agree with it - but that's why its called an opinion.

GreenHell · 04-05-2001 8:11pm

Originally posted by DadaKopf:
Greenhell: just how "effective" do you want a May Day protest, or any protest for that matter? A few windows smashed? More? You only saw what one journalist and editor wanted you to see.

Point taken.

bugler · 04-05-2001 9:58pm

Fewer smelly hippies and crusty socialists are needed at these protests. If people care about it enough then they should get into a position do do something about it.This may mean using your vote,or it may mean standing for election if you really can't see a party that you could support.

Read!

[This message has been edited by bugler (edited 04-05-2001).]

Figment · 04-05-2001 11:31pm

I don't see this argument as being so black and white. Both types of crime are problems and both influence the other and our society. To tackle one problem and ignore the other is stupid and hypocritical. I believe both should be punished harshly, than we might get a level playing ground for new blood to get their voice across.
And I wholeheartedly agree that the whole system of government needs an overhaul.

I hope this is coming across as clearly as it seems in my head

After May Day in Dublin...

Comments