Woot! Faith's surname is Irish!

jill_valentine

Ordinarily, I wouldn't start a thread about something so trivial, but I'm the biggest Faith fangirl in the world, so sue me. At the request of Eden Studios, who produce the Buffy The Vampire Slayer RPG, Joss Whedon provided surnames for both Faith and Kendra. Odd, given that Kendra specifically stated that she had none, but anyway. Faith's official surname is

Lehane

Quite a few BTVS fans are of the opinion that she shouldn't have gotten a surname at all, since she's supposed to be a rootless drifter type. It also doesn't help that Eliza Dushku is probably the least Irish looking Caucasian in the world. I think it works, personally, but I'd have preferred it if it was revealed as part of, say, a spin off mini-series, or origin comic...

simu

This is her? She looks a bit like Lorraine Keane but prettier imo.

Better than the usual cheesy, red haired "colleen" types they have as Irish people on US TV, anyway.

herobear

yes, tthats eliza dushku....she HAWT!!

jill_valentine

She's also an Albanian Danish Mormon, which might explain why no red hair...

This sort of settles something else too. There was a fairly convincing case made by fans that Faith is probably unique in the Buffyverse because she's demonstrated a peculiarly Catholic outlook. Given that the character's from Boston, and has an Irish surname, looks likely.

damien

jill_valentine wrote:

There was a fairly convincing case made by fans that Faith is probably unique in the Buffyverse because she's demonstrated a peculiarly Catholic outlook.

Really ? Do explain. Sounds interesting.

jill_valentine

Certainly. As far as I know, it was first suggested by an IMDB'er called Wal_lace, but here goes.

As you know, the Buffyverse is always careful never to endorse any one religion over another, but it does have it's own internal morality. Characters like Spike, or Willow in S7 or Angel are all trying to redeem themselves for their Dark Past (tm). They do this by doing as much good as they can. Angel in particular, because his whole series is based around the idea of salvation through good works. But basically, the message has always been that if you want to make up for your sins, good deeds are the way to go.

Faith is different because she's obsessed with punishment. When we first see her in S3 she already considers herself guilty, because she was unable to be the superhero she thinks Buffy is. It's been argued that her entire lifestyle is a manifestation of her need to be punished. She considers Kakistos her own personal demon - she can't kill him because deep down, she believes that she deserves him. She lives in a dive. She isolates herself from other people even though she's desperate for affection. She chooses to be a bad guy even though she wants to be a better superhero than Buffy more than anything in the world. She follows Buffy around (even when she's evil) despite the fact that Buffy has done nothing but harm to her since they met. But that's a pretty shaky arguement since Faith never really looked happier than when she was hanging out with the Mayor.

The meat of the arguement comes from This Year's Girl and recurs in all subsequent Faithisodes. Even comatose, Faith is letting Buffy hurt her, over and over again. When Faith is being beaten by Buffy in the dining room, Buffites always look at it as proof that Buffy is simply a better fighter. But as it says in the commentary, Faith is letting Buffy beat the crap out of her because it serves her purpose. When the switch is about to be reversed, Faith is still literally beating herself up. Which, given that Buffy's at the wheel is understandable, but Faith also takes the time to accuse herself of being a "filthy disgusting murderous bitch." which one might just consider indicative of self esteem problems. Maybe.

Moving over to Angel, Faith attempts suicide-by-cop on a massive scale. Trying to get Angel provoked enough to kill her. She's built herself a bad guy persona and no longer knows how to be anything else, so she wants out. Angel understands and tries to help her, but what works for him won't work for her. She didn't need to lose her soul to kill people, and she's still subject to Normie world laws. Despite what fans love to believe, Faith didn't sleep with Buffy, so she doesn't get Buffy's special Murderous Lover Exemption clause that Spike and Angel benefit from. Buffy arrives, intrudes, and declares that if Faith apologises, she'll beat the younger girl to death. That's our Buffy. The same Buffy, incidentally, who later tells Willow that it's not their place to exact revenge. Anyway. Faith's reponse to that is simply: "Go ahead." She doesn't think that she can ever do enough good to cancel out what she's done, so she reckons that punishment is the way to go. At the end of the episode, Faith gives herself up to the cops. Given that Faith's obsession with power and control is what lead her to where she was, Prison is the worst imaginable fate for her. Later on in Judgement, she tells Angel, with some satisfacton, about an unfair beating that she took from the guards. ("Guys like me got it coming.") Now, to a Buffyverse hero, prison doesn't serve any useful purpose. Given that Faith is the only possible replacement should anything happen to Buffy (for example, a sudden encounter with the ground from a height...) , she can do more "good" on the outside. But she stays in prison because she considers it necessary to be punished as much as possible before she can be redeemed.

When Wesley breaks her out, she still tries to get as punished as possible. She lets The Beast beat her half to death rather than kill Angel, and later on formulates the fabulous "Lets' fight a sadistic shotgun wielding monster while I'm doped!" plan, where the ultimate aim is essentially to let Angel kill her. Angel picks up on it ("Not enough to punish yourself in prison? Is that it? Still looking for someone to help beat the bad out of you? " ) and it's a theme that carries on to Orpheus, where she's quite happy to die in a painful way because deep down she believes that's the only way she'll ever be a better person. Even though she gets over her suicidal tendencies, she still heads to Sunnydale to face Buffy, who makes good on her promise to hit her a lot.

Basically, every other character in the Buffyverse kills their bad karma with good deeds. Faith is the only character who's heroics are largely a by-product of her need to be punished. She's set about turning her life into a form of purgatory. She's not merely a masochist, she doesn't get off on it, but it's something that she still seems to believe in and nothing will convince her otherwise. She believes that she's fundamentally "bad" and always has been. So to purge this "badness", as far as she's concerned, pain is good. Opus Dei would love her, 'cept that she's female...

The two big fanon theories as to why Faith is so dedicated to self flaggellation are a) She's been sexually abused at some point in her life, and in common with many victims, still believes it was her own fault. or b) That she's dragging around a substantial amount of Catholic guilt, compared to the particular flavour of agnosticism favoured by the other characters.

Matthewthebig

Wow!

Walls

Seconded.

damien

Triple wow.

Elmo

And i though I was a TV addict.

:eek:

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

i refuse to believe there is that much depth to buffy.

pickarooney

Isn't that the thing with the vampires and the fightin'?

blondie83

that actually really cleared it up for me - thanks!

Tusky

jill_valentine wrote:

Certainly. As far as I know, it was first suggested by an IMDB'er called Wal_lace, but here goes.

As you know, the Buffyverse is always careful never to endorse any one religion over another, but it does have it's own internal morality. Characters like Spike, or Willow in S7 or Angel are all trying to redeem themselves for their Dark Past (tm). They do this by doing as much good as they can. Angel in particular, because his whole series is based around the idea of salvation through good works. But basically, the message has always been that if you want to make up for your sins, good deeds are the way to go.

Faith is different because she's obsessed with punishment. When we first see her in S3 she already considers herself guilty, because she was unable to be the superhero she thinks Buffy is. It's been argued that her entire lifestyle is a manifestation of her need to be punished. She considers Kakistos her own personal demon - she can't kill him because deep down, she believes that she deserves him. She lives in a dive. She isolates herself from other people even though she's desperate for affection. She chooses to be a bad guy even though she wants to be a better superhero than Buffy more than anything in the world. She follows Buffy around (even when she's evil) despite the fact that Buffy has done nothing but harm to her since they met. But that's a pretty shaky arguement since Faith never really looked happier than when she was hanging out with the Mayor.

The meat of the arguement comes from This Year's Girl and recurs in all subsequent Faithisodes. Even comatose, Faith is letting Buffy hurt her, over and over again. When Faith is being beaten by Buffy in the dining room, Buffites always look at it as proof that Buffy is simply a better fighter. But as it says in the commentary, Faith is letting Buffy beat the crap out of her because it serves her purpose. When the switch is about to be reversed, Faith is still literally beating herself up. Which, given that Buffy's at the wheel is understandable, but Faith also takes the time to accuse herself of being a "filthy disgusting murderous bitch." which one might just consider indicative of self esteem problems. Maybe.

Moving over to Angel, Faith attempts suicide-by-cop on a massive scale. Trying to get Angel provoked enough to kill her. She's built herself a bad guy persona and no longer knows how to be anything else, so she wants out. Angel understands and tries to help her, but what works for him won't work for her. She didn't need to lose her soul to kill people, and she's still subject to Normie world laws. Despite what fans love to believe, Faith didn't sleep with Buffy, so she doesn't get Buffy's special Murderous Lover Exemption clause that Spike and Angel benefit from. Buffy arrives, intrudes, and declares that if Faith apologises, she'll beat the younger girl to death. That's our Buffy. The same Buffy, incidentally, who later tells Willow that it's not their place to exact revenge. Anyway. Faith's reponse to that is simply: "Go ahead." She doesn't think that she can ever do enough good to cancel out what she's done, so she reckons that punishment is the way to go. At the end of the episode, Faith gives herself up to the cops. Given that Faith's obsession with power and control is what lead her to where she was, Prison is the worst imaginable fate for her. Later on in Judgement, she tells Angel, with some satisfacton, about an unfair beating that she took from the guards. ("Guys like me got it coming.") Now, to a Buffyverse hero, prison doesn't serve any useful purpose. Given that Faith is the only possible replacement should anything happen to Buffy (for example, a sudden encounter with the ground from a height...) , she can do more "good" on the outside. But she stays in prison because she considers it necessary to be punished as much as possible before she can be redeemed.

When Wesley breaks her out, she still tries to get as punished as possible. She lets The Beast beat her half to death rather than kill Angel, and later on formulates the fabulous "Lets' fight a sadistic shotgun wielding monster while I'm doped!" plan, where the ultimate aim is essentially to let Angel kill her. Angel picks up on it ("Not enough to punish yourself in prison? Is that it? Still looking for someone to help beat the bad out of you? " ) and it's a theme that carries on to Orpheus, where she's quite happy to die in a painful way because deep down she believes that's the only way she'll ever be a better person. Even though she gets over her suicidal tendencies, she still heads to Sunnydale to face Buffy, who makes good on her promise to hit her a lot.

Basically, every other character in the Buffyverse kills their bad karma with good deeds. Faith is the only character who's heroics are largely a by-product of her need to be punished. She's set about turning her life into a form of purgatory. She's not merely a masochist, she doesn't get off on it, but it's something that she still seems to believe in and nothing will convince her otherwise. She believes that she's fundamentally "bad" and always has been. So to purge this "badness", as far as she's concerned, pain is good. Opus Dei would love her, 'cept that she's female...

The two big fanon theories as to why Faith is so dedicated to self flaggellation are a) She's been sexually abused at some point in her life, and in common with many victims, still believes it was her own fault. or b) That she's dragging around a substantial amount of Catholic guilt, compared to the particular flavour of agnosticism favoured by the other characters.

ROFL shut up. Shes hot and she beats up vampires , thats about as far as it goes.

RobertFoster

never seen Buffy - but I think I recognise her - has she been in anything else recently?

ixoy

RobertFoster wrote:

never seen Buffy - but I think I recognise her - has she been in anything else recently?

She was the star of the now dead "Tru Calling" (on TV3). I'll assume you saw her there. Also had a cameo in "Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back" as a jewel thief.

RobertFoster

thanks ixoy, that's where I saw her...all 2 episodes I watched of it

D!ve^Bomb!

Buffy eh? has to be the worst ****in thing on television.. utter crap!!

doh.ie

damien.m wrote:

Triple wow.

And a fourth. Very interesting.

That said, I don't necessarily believe Joss Whedon had outlined each of his characters to such an clear extent and there is the strong possibility that storylines or characters just worked better a particular way. If Faith had a fun and unique way of fighting - letting more punches in before delivering her volley of blows or whatever - they might have just decided to keep her doing that.

So while I don't know if Whedon had the above in mind when the wrote or planned or sanctioned (m)any of the Faith shows, it wouldn't surprise me if the theory held either.

As for the Lehane/Irish connection, she always seemed part Latino/Mexican to me. 'Tis nonetheless cool, though.