Russia/Chechnya

bugler

I see Russia has decided to pull its regular army forces out of Chechnya,instead leaving paramilitary police and "Intertior Ministry militia's" to carry on the fight.Seems to me that maybe they should just cut their losses completely and try and cut a deal.Too many of their young conscripts have killed and been killed in Chechnya,and enough is enough.
The region lies in ruin,allegations of human rights abuses by russian forces are rife, their forces are reluctant,poorly paid,and suffer from low morale,and they face a highly motivated and capable enemy.Much of what goes in Chechnya is a mystery to outsiders,Russian claims that the Chechens are little more than thugs who are fighting for personal gain,allegations of rape and torture by Russian troops,its hard to know what to believe.But its obvious that the fighting is savage,and the cost plain to see.
Its important to know when enough is enough....

Grozny before:

Grozny after:

Yup its the same building,the presidential palace.Almost unbelievable.

Clintons Cat

If this is correct it signals a major u turn in Putins policies.One of Putins major election promises was to restore Russian Militry prestige and stabilise chechnia.
One thing is for sure the chechens are proving as effective guerilla fighters as the russians found the Afgans.

DadaKopf

The Belaggio Hotel, Las Vegas

A coincedence? I think not!

Anyway, there was an interesting documentary on BBC2 about 2 years ago about the war in Chechnya - human rights abuses committed by the Russian army include the use of vacuum bombs which vapourise all the surrounding air, imploding buildings but worse still, literally sucking people's lungs out of their bodies. they're banned in international law but sure, the Americans and Austrians are the biggest producers of land mines, but they don't use them! (sure)

Anyway, the problems in Chechnya is just an example of Russian arrogance - have you seen how small the place is, and in the middle of nowhere! If the RUssians won't leave their only independent news station alone, what chance have they to let a non-existant region go?

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"I collect spores, moulds and fungus."

bugler

No way pays any attention to the rules of war or the laws of the UN any more.Not unless
its one of the major powers or a close ally of one.For example, Israel occupying Southern Lebanon plus Gaza etc,in defiance of UN mandate 21 (I think!!),which is the same one invoked when Iraq invaded Kuwait, though the reactions of the West were somewhat different as you know.Or Israel's assassinations of leading palestinians,also contravenes UN law.Russians are much the same.They dropped leaflets over Grozny basically saying that the civilians should get out,as they were going to pound the place into the ground,and that they could not guarantee their safety from these bombardments,also illegal. Its a waste of human life.Give it up.

Yossarian

The weapons you are refering to are Thermobaric weapons. These are incenderary weapons which create a larger pressure blast than conventional explosives. I dont think they are illigal under international law and
have been used by both sides in Chechnya. The chechens captured a train load of them from the Russians.

Heres a link to an assesment of why Russian military has failed in Chechenya. It also includes some of the background and dates.

http://call.army.mil/fmso/fmsopubs/issues/yrusfail/yrusfail.htm

Also some info on thermobaric weapons
http://call.army.mil/fmso/fmsopubs/issues/fuelair/fuelair.htm

DadaKopf

well, as far as i'm aware, from this documentary where a lone cameraman/journo went behind the lines in Grozny, he found evidence of Thermobaric bombs. he also mentioned that international law, or war law (i think there's a distinction), have been banned.

but when did Russia ever bother obeying the laws which the capitalistic pigdogs made up in the first place?

i still don't think they should have bombed the Belaggio

Yossarian

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by DadaKopf:

but when did Russia ever bother obeying the laws which the capitalistic pigdogs made up in the first place?
</font>

Exactly what law bans the use of Thermobaric weapons?

Magwitch

Thermobaric weapons are illegal under the same UN rules that ban Chemical and biological weapons as well as (thermobaric bombs) certain conventional weapons such as double detetionan bullets, use of shotguns as infantry weapons (true) and garrots (if thats spelt right) by any military force or branch of government. These bans are covered/controlled by the United Nations rules of war (Geneva convention) under an updateable sub branch of the human rights charter therein.

That siad the wide spread and effective use of these weapons by Russia has led Britian to start development of its own Themobaric weapons. So we can expect the UN ban to disappear.

As for Russians involvement in Chechnya, that is much more complicated than it may first sound. For decades throughout the cold war Islamic Extremeists groups (or the governments that supported them) recieved military and financial aid from the then CCCP. However the spread of Sharia Law into Afghanistan has led to the panic button being pressed in Russia. Chechen forces are and have been supported by the current Afghan Taliban, who are also making incursions into the largely muslim CIS state of Uzbekistan and its CIS neighbours.

Putins ill timed incursion into Chechnya was meant to be both a stop gap and a message to the Taliban and their allies. Grozy and the entire population of Chechnya (mostly innocent) are the living reminder to anyone who wishes to infringe on Russias sphere of influence.

Initially I had alot of abmiration for the Chechen Governemt, but since the death of Djoker Dudayjev (the ex-president) other factions came into Chechnya. These Mujahadin were not of the same muslim sect as the Chechen people and they did much to persecute and destroy the established state religion. It is however the Chechen people who are suffering form both sides, especially the Russians.

Decades of bad blood between the Chechens and sucessive and oppressive Moscow governemnts has left the people of Chechnya having to live with and support a movement that was not designed to either defend them or their beliefs.

It is impossible to see any resolution that will allow the Chechen people to get on with their lives with what little they have left. The chechen fighters, such as thet are, are no longer a force of Chechen nationalism but rather a religious group splintered form Afghanistan. The only other alternative is Russia, and we have seen what they can do.

Yossarian

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Magwitch:
Thermobaric weapons are illegal under the same UN rules that ban Chemical and biological weapons as well as (thermobaric bombs) certain conventional weapons such as double detetionan bullets, use of shotguns as infantry weapons (true) and garrots (if thats spelt right) by any military force or branch of government. These bans are covered/controlled by the United Nations rules of war (Geneva convention) under an updateable sub branch of the human rights charter therein.
</font>

I think its Protocol III (1977), cant find the text of it anywaher, have tried looking on the UN website.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
That siad the wide spread and effective use of these weapons by Russia has led Britian to start development of its own Themobaric weapons. So we can expect the UN ban to disappear.
</font>

Surprised it hasnt been modified already considering thermobaric weapons are posesed by most of the world powers (US,China, Russia, India). I think only russia has developed them beyond basic fuel-air bombs, developing a shoulder fired thermobaric weapon.

Yossarian

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by bugler:
The belaggio
According to an ex russian soldier on the DoD history forums the chechens where holed up inside the presidential palace and when came under fire they nailed Russian POWS to the window frames.Still he's very biased and can't be trusted.Knows his weaponry though.</font>

Still frequenting the DoD forums?
gave up a while ago, just far too much stupidity and **** to wade through.
...wasnt Kretchet was it?

bugler

Oh yeah.I'm surprised you got out
"I try to get out,and it pulls me back in..."
The level of idiots in there is unrivalled.
Rev Hellfire, why did you even point me to that godforsaken place?!! I was happy in just general.Its full of racists,flamers and oddballs.
Its Krechet yes.The last time he has emparted his wisdom on me was to tell me that terrorists should be tortured on live TV. He's not exactly a humanitarian,our Krechet.He was also talking bout how proud he was to have killed two teenage chechen fighters.and he's not too fond of us irsh, or albanians....or......

bugler

The belaggio
According to an ex russian soldier on the DoD history forums the chechens where holed up inside the presidential palace and when came under fire they nailed Russian POWS to the window frames.Still he's very biased and can't be trusted.Knows his weaponry though.

Da_cOmRaDe_MiKe

whats goin on here is anyone downing commies?

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- Da_cOmRaDe_MiKe

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Man causes all problems. No man, no problems. - Stalin </font>

Celt

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Several countries, including the United States, China, India and Russia, have a variety of thermobaric weapons in their arsenals. Thermobaric is another term for fuel-air.</font>

Then again , we all know america only ever follows the rules when it suits them.

[This message has been edited by WhiteLancer (edited 17-04-2001).]

Magwitch

Thats true, but if one side has them then the other must, the unbreakable rule of an arms race.

America has already gotton around the shot-gun rule by developing infantry ammo for the M16 (tested in west bank by Isreal recently) that has the same effect as shot gun shells. Charming.

sam

out of interest, why dont they allow infantry to use shotguns?

Clintons Cat

because its not nice to shoot people with shotguns.


oh wait something to do with surgical removal of pellets since most shotgun wounds are non fatal,compared to solid round projectiles and you dealing with multiple entry wounds it takes a lot longer to treat a wounded soldier with shotgun wounds than one wounded with conventional wounds.
For the same reason flachete rounds are baned(they break up upon impact).
Conventional Military Forces like clean engagements,large amounts of time consuming multiple shotgun wounds clogging up the frontline military hospitals will cause massive logistical problems.
For a similar reason irregular Guerilla forces such as the cubans and vietminh used them in great numbers.

bugler

While not allowed they are used....the SAS has always been known to carry the odd one.They were caught in the republic with a sawn off pump-action before

Plus the point man on jungle patrols often will seek a shotgun,as there is the chance he will happen upon something very close to him in dense foliage

Lucy_la_morte

One thing you do have to notice with those initial pictures is, the before picture is taken on a sunny day, with a shiny car just passing and is in full colour. The after picture is poor quality, almost black and white, has a frail figure in it, also looks very desolate because of the weather. Ofcourse you can notice the buildings damage but still, it could sway ones opinion more due to these features.

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J'ai dormi sous l'eau.

Lucy la morte.

[This message has been edited by Lucy_la_morte (edited 19-04-2001).]