MEN or WOMEN or BOTH

Slydice · 22-03-2001 12:08pm #1

I've been wondering who is stronger.

Lets just say for sake of argument that
men and women are two different races or something.

Who is stronger?

Cos i've heard that when men and women of thw same size and weight etc are compared, the women proove to be stronger.

But, in the world it seems men are more dominant, ie more men are bigger etc.

could it be that women actually are the stronger but actually evolved the ability not to have to show it or something, im not a philosipher so i dont know really if anyone is interested.

Btw this is the humanities board so im being serious not taking the .... or whatever. Remember that if your gonna reply.

pepperkin · 22-03-2001 4:59pm

Are you talking about physically stronger? Because otherwise, BOTH are stronger in their own fields. As in, men can handle some things better than women can, and vice versa.
For example, a man with a newborn baby suddenly stuck in his hands would freak out. A woman would start doing that mothering thing. (the majority, here, people, this is NOT absolute.)

And on the other hand, in a combat situation, MOST men could handle the emotional and mental side better than MOST women. I mean, just about any man I know could beat me there, I'm pathetically tenderhearted. "but he's an enemy, pepper! Leave him alone!" "AGH but he's hurt, I gotta fix him...."

Women can handle multi-tasking and stressful job situations better than men acc'd to studies done on Fortune 500 companies, but men can handle adversity and bad situations better.
I think part of that is women are always expecting to be discriminated against "because we're women!" and therefore get overly defensive and obnoxious in an adverse situation, whereas men relate to each other better.
hehehe...one point...when a guy gets emotionally overwrought, he usually goes out and picks a fight and takes out his aggressions through violence. A woman bawls for hours, then sobs to all her best friends for a few weeks, and then either thinks up catty, vindictive ways to get even with whomever put her in that frame of mind, or moves on. Which is better? Which implies strength (emotional and mental strength?)

The fact is, it's not a contest since individuals vary so greatly. Considering the majority of teen suicides are male, does that imply a lack of strength to keep going? Or the opposite?

Please explain one thing, to me, tho. I've been wondering about this for a long time.
Women USUALLY get into "girlie sports." Ice skating, gymnastics, swimming. Not just to participate but also to watch. All are very flowing, beautiful sports, and require years of training andf natural talent.
Guys get into boxing, wrestling, football...things that IMOHO don't require real training or intelligence, just a desire to beat the crap out of people.
Why is it that guys can watch boxing and get off on it? Find enjoyment from it? What is so great about two brain damaged morons who don't have the sense to GET OUT OF THE WAY beating the beans out of each other? I really would like an intelligent well thought out answer to this.
I have to know why bloodshed, gore, and fistfighting are SPORTS!

Slydice · 22-03-2001 6:03pm

I was talking more like who has the upper hand.

Are men the dominant or are women, or is one side actually stronger in a hiden way, that culture cannot see.

IS one side (even though we all have equal rights by law) weaker by nature, psycological means or physical means.

I'm really trying to bring in about something like; has either men or women evolved stronger?

Excelsior · 22-03-2001 6:12pm

Provost, I think that they are equal.

--Kaiser-- · 22-03-2001 6:14pm

Good post pepper

I dont like boxing, i find it dull

Shiminay · 22-03-2001 6:17pm

Girls are better cause they've got jubblies!!!

heeheehee

Dangerous area this, innit?

Before I say any more - the following are generalisations and are to be treated as such! This entire post is written in a light-hearted tone.

Pepperkin's bloodsports arguement...
Guys are real adreline junkies - the rush of a fight, excessivly competetive sport really gets the heart thumping and gets us excited.

Girls take more pleasure in beauty - and natually sports like gymnastics and figure skating are the appealing choice here.

That's as best as I can explain it...

Which is Stronger?

How long is a piece of string?

Let's talk about some of the differences...
Men think in a more straight-forward way.

Shopping - a fella (let's call him Dav

) goes to the shop. He knows he needs milk, bread, apples and maybe a creme egg. He proceeds to buy: milk, bread, apples and 2 creme eggs (cause he's a fat bastid).
A girl (let's call her Mary-Kate) goes to a shop with the same list. She comes back with milk (lo-fat of course!), bread, ham, dairy spread (again, lo-fat), apples, oranges, pears, and a whole host of extra stuff that wasn't on the list (but I bet she forgot the creme egg!). It's madness! You knew what to get, but you didn't stick to the plan - you had to wander around the aisles of the shop looking at what's there and buy all this extra stuff!
Mammy's are the worst offenders here, but it's a common thing in women!

Shoes - I have 3 pairs of shoes - that's all I need! Why do women need 300???

Clothes - guys are fussier than girls - it's just not as obvious. We're also a lot more stuborn on what we wear.

Ok - that's enough on that point.

Strength.
Physical - guys tend to be bigger and as a result, physically stronger. This is a simple size/bulk thing.

Emotional - girls are the best at this - they handle things in an irrational manner *very* often. But, they deal with it - it may take several months of b1tching and gossiping, but they deal with it.
Fellas bottle up and hit!!!

Pepperkin described it best with the War thing.

Aggressive situations suit guys better and tender stuff is for the girls - see my comments about bloodsports.

To sum up...

I don't think it's a question that anyone can really answer as the arguements and factors aren't quantifiable statistics.
(but I still think the jubblies thing does it for the girls!)

All the best,

Dav
@B^)

Prepare yourself - The Beefy King stirs from his slumber...

[honey i] violated [the kids]

Bob the Unlucky Octopus · 22-03-2001 6:38pm

I hate generalization as a rule (oxymoron ahoy!), but it looks like this topic has forced my hand....well here goes:

1) The majority of these trends we're discussing have their roots in evolutionary behavior, when men were hunter-gatherers (providers), and women undertook more evolutionary important duties (propagating the species, stabilizing settlement and caring for the next generation). In evolutionary terms guys, I hate to say(as I'm a man) that men play a dismally small role in furthering the basic goals of our species. We are food and sperm-providers, which the whole "macho" culture of the 80s described as a healthy trend, when it is in fact quite menial from an instinctual point of view.

2) The reason that men have generally been more successful in the modern workplace is down to two things:

a) Centuries, some might say *millenia* of discrimination in various forms, this includes women discriminating against one another- often more vicious than trans-gender discrimination.

b) Men are more aggressive and are better risk-takers than women.

"a" has been well-documented by many more qualified than me, so I'll not go into that.

"b" is a little more interesting. Women (as pepperkin rightly pointed out) are better at stable duties and multi-tasking than men- they are generally better organized and tabulate discrete information better. Why do you think most secretaries are women? Not because it's a lower-ranking job in the pecking order but because most men make crap secretaries. Empathic jobs are also better suited for women- men have a hard time empathizing when it comes down to it. This makes men poor parents outside of providers in the early years of childcare. The majority of teachers of young children have to be women, because men lose patience with small children too easily. Most college professors are men because of the mindless focus that pervades most men's minds.

3)However, although women are better organized and tabulate information better, psycological studies show that they are appalling at risk management. Compromise is found less in women than in men. That is why, even in this enlightened age, few women (if any) are entrepreneurs. I hugely admire people who can take calculated risks, and reap the benefits, that's part of my genetic hormonal make-up. The same reason explains why women make poor politicians and diplomats (think Margaret Thatcher, Indira Gandhi, Madeline Albright). Men are more objective oriented, the only thing important in the hunt is the prey- nothing else matters. This is both a good and a bad thing. The downside is that men rarely see the bigger picture without a great deal more thought than women. This shows why the majority of modern artists are women- it's a bigger picture subject. It also explains why there are more women than men in primary health-care, and more male surgeons than female.

This single-minded approach in men can be beneficial. One only need look at a man and a woman down at the shops- chances are that the man already knows what he is buying, has checked it up in a catalogue, and will, without much question, buy it and go home. The woman is far more likely to just be "browsing". It can also be extremely harmful. I don't think that there has ever been a single truly brutal-minded female dictator (Imelda Marcos and Maggy Thatcher come to mind, but they just didn't have the killer edge of Abacha or Stalin). Men are more willing to kill each other, as I found when I spent 6 months in the National Guard back home. Even part-time soldiers are all too keen to study new and better ways to maim and destroy their fellow person. That single-minded objectivity has ruined many an empire and civilization (just as it helped build it).

4) In stable situations, women are the masters. Look at the *majority* of married households. The boss of the stable family environment is the woman of the house. We men may have our own petty delusions of grandeur in the work-place, but we know who's boss when it comes to running the house. I've lost count of the number of times that my fiancee has given me an order, I've reluctantly followed it, and then later realized that she was right.

So in conclusion- Men tend to be bigger risk-takers, daring and foolish at the same time- partly explaining why they have been "movers and shakers" in history a bit more.

Women are more organized, better coordinated and evolutionarily more important than men. Their prime motivations are stability, foundation of relationships and maintenance of the status quo. Women aren't big on dissention or sedition, they quest for stability in the long run.

Remember, these are all generalizations- there are always going to be exceptions to the rule. Oh, and pepperkin- I know this is being pedantic- but all those sports you mention are done by men as well- and on average, they do as well as women. In swimming, their times are considerably faster.

I agree that those sports you mention are brutal and have no place in civilized society(especially American football- I go into hibernation during the Superbowl weekend to avoid the mindless environment). But there are an equal number of very athletic and skillful sports that men participate in. Basketball, baseball, rugby, football(I used to call it soccer, but football makes more sense), fencing and cricket. These are all skill-based sports, played at a decent tempo (with the exception of cricket obviously) and with a high enjoyment level.

But men's sports still dominate- women aren't as interested in participating as are men.

Bob the Unlucky Octopus
=Carpe Diem=

Blitzkrieger · 22-03-2001 7:00pm

I think that boxing is crap but how can you say that football doesn't require skill? I'll just assume you're talking about American football and not the man's game we play over here?

I was actually half watching a documentary on this over the weekend. Apparantly it's all down to hormones, specifically testosterone(crap speeling

). Basically in a stressful/competive situation men and women both produce testosterone. The difference is men produce much more and associate it with enjoyment while women produce less and associate it with stress. It also focuses a man's mind and co-ordinates his actions, making it easier to achieve his goal. For women it tends to confuse their thought process.

This is why men are more willing to take a risk than women and are more likely to thrive in a competetive environment.

Disclaimer : Blah, blah, generalisation, simplification, etc..

Slydice · 22-03-2001 7:04pm

After that huge post i think needs to be reitterated

Originally posted by Kharn:

Girls are better cause they've got jubblies!!!

pepperkin · 22-03-2001 7:15pm

"Oh, and pepperkin- I know this is being pedantic- but all those sports you mention are done by men as well- and on average, they do as well as women. In swimming, their times are considerably faster. "
Yep yep! that's cuz you don't have jubblies to get in the way *smirk* J/K!

And yeah I agree, I was making a rather open generalization. It's not easy to discuss a men versus women argument without generalizing! I have known men who would be totally hopeless in a fight and women whom I would pit against Van Damme without worrying...people people are so incredibly varied and unique in their interests and etc.
So I know you're right, and I was right in my rather small-minded way, the only way I could be to make that point!

LOL kharn, you struck home with the shopping argument. I hate shopping and I can really think of better ways to spend my time...like reading or writing or playing on this cursed PC...but when I DO go grocery shopping, I tend to make a lot of impulse buys and forget one of the things I originally went in for. It doesn't help that I am usually too busy to sit down and eat, I tend to snack on the run, so I am usually hungry when I go grocery shopping and EVERYTHING looks yummie!
Who needs 300 pairs of shoes? I have 2. (and one pair of boots.) But then I'm not big on the whole "match everything with everything else" thing...I figure black shoes go with everything and the h3ll with it.

American Football to me is just boring. I also have my little soapbox in which I point out that most football players make in a year what my daughters teacher won't ever see in her lifetime...but who is more important, entertainment or our kids futures? But noone cares about that...

I am also aware that not all guys get into boxing/wrestling/other blood sports. (ick...) Me, I'm a nurse-in-training, so blood sports give me the heebies and the overwhelming impulse to run for the first aid kit. FIX IT!

Oh and kharn, not only girls have jubblies, lol! I've known guys who had bigger ones than I'll ever see when I look down. *grins* scary, eh?

Yes, blitz I was speaking of American football. *yawn.*

Hey guys make estrogen as well as women making testosterone. Thing is, as with women feeling the T as stress, men feel the E as weakness...

hmm, what else to respond to...
Oh yeah.

From Bob..."I hate to say(as I'm a man) that men play a dismally small role in furthering the basic goals of our species. We are food and sperm-providers, which the whole "macho" culture of the 80s described as a healthy trend, when it is in fact quite menial from an instinctual point of view."

I have to disagree...on part of that...I mean, yeah, you guys provide the sperm and the food (generically, anyway) but women could not live without men (no matter what the test tube baby fans say) and men couldn't make it without women. Period. We need each other for more than that due to emotional/physical/etc makeup.
IMOHO (disclaimer, this is my own view...)
Men need women to give them "softness" (gods, that sounds cliche...sorry!) but I hope you understand what I mean...look at most very masculine dominated cultures, guys are freaks. Guys need a woman. Someone who won't look down on him for crying if he's really upset, who will snuggle him when he needs to be touched, all the stuff guys can't/won't get from guys cuz "it's gay!"
and women need guys for the same thing. Someone to fight for, someone to back them up if they need help, and at least with me, someone to kick me in the tail (NOT literally.) if I am having a pity-me party or something idiotic like that. Guys need tenderness, girls need toughness, and we find it in each other (on average, etc...)So that makes us all weak, since we all need each other. Noone is stronger or weaker. Just needy! lol

Evil Phil · 22-03-2001 7:23pm

Who is stronger?

Well emotionally speaking. Neither, it depends on the individual and their life experience.

Somebody who has had to survive a traumatic experience and has done so will be stronger than somebody who hasn't. Doesn't mean they're a better person, they just have more experience.
I suppose women have more experience as they don't have it as easy as us men.

when a guy gets emotionally overwrought, he usually goes out and picks a fight and takes out his aggressions through violence

Usually?! P|sses me off that. We are not all violent, in fact the violent ones are in a minority, but we still get blamed for their stupidity. Maybe your just hanging around with the wrong type of men.

Guys get into boxing, wrestling, football...things that IMOHO don't require real training or intelligence, just a desire to beat the crap out of people.

Football is no more violent than hockey. Hurley is, but no more than camogie.

Times have changed, if you go into most martial arts classes there are women in the class. Myself, I'm into yoga but my sister is into kickboxing (full contact) which is a very violent sport. I'm also into rock climbing, lots of women and men involved in that at all levels.

pepperkin · 22-03-2001 7:34pm

Evil Phil...
Read my rampant and liberal disclaimers.
What I said was GENERALIZED. It no more describes ALL males as would saying something like "All women have long hair." "All guys wear glasses."

It was a GENERALIZATION of standard but by no means complete behaviour. If you do not fit that standard, great! If you do, Great! YOU'RE HUMAN! Congrats!

As to the life experiences thing...Yes, women have it harder in SOME ways and yes life experiences build the character of an individual. But women have it harder only in some aspects, guys have it worse in others.
"Don't every cry, don't ever show emotion, be a man!" "You better become a great sports star," says Dad to the computer geek, "or I'll disown you!" etc. I think that guys ON AVERAGE tend to have some higher expectations on them by society, parents, peers, etc. In SOME things.
For the most part, women don't have to overcome half of their psychological makeup (IE denying emotion) to be considered an adult. I also understand that this "strong silent" type man is going out of vogue and todays child is all about feelings. However, it still persists in some areas/social circles.

(Disclaimer! None of what I say applies to everyone nor should it.)

neuro-praxis · 22-03-2001 9:51pm

Physically, men are stronger generally, and if that is genetic make up, then it's not a controversial thing to say.

So much of this debate lies in culture and society. Women in this world, according to some statistics of mine, do 80% of the world's work. Yet they earn 10% of the world's wages. And we won't even go into the issue of top job places!

I think it will change. It will take a long time, but I think perceptions are changing, roles are changing, and both men and women are gaining courage to do the things they really want to, and not just what they believe is expected of them.

What Bob said about female politicians being less successful than male, I think that will soon change too. In Sweden, right now, 50% of their parliament members are female. And that country is doing rather nicely (bar a couple of, er, guns, issues).

I could comment on tonnes of stuff, but we're dealing with generalisations here, so I will leave it. It isn't a case of who is better, because both men and women are not so impressive in our society. Like Scott Adams said:

Good trend:
Women get more political power

Unexpected bad thing about htis trend:
Women are as dumb as men.

I find girls are crapper at sports generally (and alot of the time in Ireland they are - I coach a girls basketball team and they can kick the asses of *any* girls, but rarely, rarely the boys' asses

) because there is no emphasis on the importance of sport for girls. When I was younger, I played soccoer with guys, but quit, because, due to my femaleness, they would never pass to me. Therefore it was difficult to get skilled in any way. That said, my friend Lyndsey is off to Canada to college on a soccer scholarship because she is so brilliant at it.

Anyway, we are all equally fussy, equally arrogant, and equally better at different things. But I still think girls need to get their fingers out and get some top jobs.

However, since I am planning on being a missionary, there is not much of hope of me being a top dog executive.

Paladin · 22-03-2001 9:56pm

Sheesh.
Talk about overcomplicating the issues.
Everyone knows the cliché's ffs.

Men like to shag.
Women like to nag.

Its 50/50. Its just an obvious law of nature that male and female are co-dependant for existance.

And if you ARE going to get complicated, at least discuss the little known things, such as the genetic differences.

Why are women genetically superior to men when it comes to survival?
(*hint - X-X Chromosome as opposed to X-Y*)

Im just waiting for Bob to talk about this really. He attacks all the topics with such enthusiasm

azezil · 23-03-2001 1:09am

i no some women r gonna kill me over this! but i say men are stronger!

could ya imagine a race of women, notin would get done! LOL women are always getin upset and angry over little things...always worried about their looks n "does my bum look big in this"...where as men just get on with it!

but of course both are necessary, despite their emotional draw backs they do hav alot of physical redeeming features! LOL

"just because ur not paraniod, doesn't mean they're not after u!"

Bob the Unlucky Octopus · 23-03-2001 1:34am

Originally posted by Paladin:

Men like to shag.
Women like to nag.

Im just waiting for Bob to talk about this really. He attacks all the topics with such enthusiasm

Well I couldn't very well stay away from this topic *now* could I Paladin?

Women are better at survival in harsh conditions than men, all else being equal. This is because of the higher fat content in their bodies (and before I'm blasted for not being politically correct, I'm talking about insulative fat, not metabolic fat). Extra adipose tissue(fat) allows women to survive in harsher conditions and provide for a child better than men. Men have more muscle bulk it's true, but they have a higher need for food intake as well.

The point Paladin makes is indeed a valid one. Women are X-X, which means their genes have a greater chance of crossing over, and for a favorable mutation to arise. Men are X-Y which not only means that they have over-production of testosterone (correct spelling btw Blitz- you had it right

), but that they are twice as susceptible to X-linked recessive genetic disease- the X-chromosome having come from their mothers (some of whom might be carriers of this disease).

And no- I'm not incredibly sad- I'm a qualified doctor(well just about...)- so there's justification for my knowing what might seem useless to the average schmo(a word in a strange Manhattan dialect, not dissimilar in aetiology to "cawfee"). Also, my fiancee suffers from alpha-thalasemia, an inherited blood condition, which is fortunately very treatable.

But I digress- and I'm going to continue digressing for a bit. It's getting late, and I feel like getting off-topic for a bit (so sue me).

Neuro mentioned a quote from Scott Adams- the incredibly hilarious author of Dilbert. I have most of his books, and just love his serious, sarcastic style. It's got a lot of interesting gender contrasts in terms of personality too. He mentions another interesting point: "It's kinda true that men run the planet, are powerful, drive better cars, etc....but those are only ONE PERCENT of men. The rest of us are average schmos(there's that word again) who have to bow and scrape before a pointy-haired boss"

There is some degree of truth to that. Also, men may have to deny emotion to some extent, but that's changing (except for me- I was more of the shy(not strong), silent type). Women (because of the fashion/cosmetics industry) have huge pressures upon themselves placed there by women's magazines, etc. I've known no anorexic men (there must be some), but all the people I know were women.

Basically, we have an equal share of intelligence, but women are more important to species survival than men (a pattern repeated throughout nature), but they also have more problems.

Bob the Unlucky Octopus
=Carpe Diem=

Greenbean · 23-03-2001 3:13am

Can any of this parallel to human society?

Gorilla society: Male dominance (with co-female leader as well, but the male can have multiple mates), peaceful controlled. Dominance comes through ability to face-off oponents, genetically and mentally. Only one male becomes dominant - but has access to all females. This male as choice, others have little or none. Females want dominant male. (Gorillas have extremly tiny penises btw).

Chimpanzee: Other end of scale - anarchy, disruptive society, no male dominance. Effectively female dominated, they choose from all the males. Females fight, males fight. Males must compete not against each other for reproduction rights but instead with their sexual desirability to females (in gorillaz the top male becomes desirable). No steady relationships. (relatively very large penis sizes)

Orangutans: Peaceful. Steady monogamy, steady relationships, little fighting. (moderate penis size)

I can see humans falling into all of these categories and funny enough, the peverse thing is, the penis sizes of the male humans and their natures would match up with similarly to the primates mentioned. Dunno if its worth mentioning - or is it just my insecurities

Ok about the popularity of "blood sports" like boxing etc, I think that comes from the extreme interest that will capivate males in the social hierarchy. Its extremely imortant for males to watch this and quickly assertain where a male is in the rank and order. Its interesting that its developed into spectator sports, but this stuff is hardwared to be of great importance to males. An ability to do this is very important and this is the currently model used in most businesses with "suits" in networking, whether they know it or not. Prove you're a man, or you know whos who and how to deal with them and you are going places. An absolutely nightmarish enviornment for females to deal with; but an even more freaky situation for a man when the females are effectively doing it - screams out "crazy" to most males. The increasing rates in male suicide has been several times linked into confusion about role in society; the movement from male society from a "gorilla" type society to a "chimpanzee" type society. I don't blame anyone for this - but its a good first step for people to realise this is where it stems from. Maybe you can thus deal with it.

pepperkin · 23-03-2001 3:43am

Not to get into a genital discussion (too late!) but I have to agree that the insecurity levels leading from one's VIEW OF SELF can lead to psycholigical disturbance. If a guy THINKS he's big, then he has that attitude. And etc.
So while I think it has something to do with individual temperament on occassion, I can't blame it all on that...

And btw in my own personal view of something said earlier..."Mary-Kate) goes to a shop with the same list. She comes back with milk (lo-fat of course!), bread, ham, dairy spread (again, lo-fat), "

I have never, ever bought lo-fat, lo-cal, or no-sugar anything! I cringe from plastic food. But then, I weigh in at about 6 3/4 stone (95 lbs) so lo-fat would probably kill me.

(I also know I am not fat, [too skinny, actually...] I know I am not ugly, [I'm just cute. No model here.] and I never whine that I am either of these things! Yay me, lol!)

Shiminay · 23-03-2001 10:21am

Of course - the lo-fat thing was all part of my light hearted look at the thing (but you all knew that).

Anyway, after a night's thought on the matter...

Jubblies still do it for me (on SO many levels).

All the best,

Dav
@B^)

Prepare yourself - The Beefy King stirs from his slumber...

[honey i] violated [the kids]

Evil Phil · 23-03-2001 11:12am

Originally posted by pepperkin:
Evil Phil...
Read my rampant and liberal disclaimers.
What I said was GENERALIZED. It no more describes ALL males as would saying something like "All women have long hair." "All guys wear glasses."

It was a GENERALIZATION of standard but by no means complete behaviour. If you do not fit that standard, great! If you do, Great! YOU'RE HUMAN! Congrats!

Sorry, but my point was it's not the standard and it's an inaccurate generalization, but I hear what your saying.

Instead of growing up to be the strong silent type, these days boys are being brought up to be aware of their emotions. A good thing which makes the world a better place. However, in some cases they're being told that previous generations of men (like mine) were all abusive violent men. And in the extreme that the masculine side of the personality is abusive and violent. Not saying that your doing this Pepperkin, heavens no (Specially now that I know your cute

). Just ranting at the world in general. There seems to be a very negative view of men out in the world at the moment and some times it feel like were all being held responsible for sexism, violence, homophobia, the environments poor health and all the other cr@p in the world. It won't change unless we men try and change it.

Bard · 23-03-2001 11:28am

Firsly, there's no true answer to any such question which makes such a general comparison between the sexes of the human race. The question is unfair and too broad. - But, while not answering that question, I can still address a couple of other points.

Regarding the sports - Personally I couldn't be bothered with boxing but DO enjoy rugby (which is many times more physically demanding than American "Football") and football - and saying that these sports don't require training, talent or intelligence just seems ridiculous. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Other so-called "blood" sports, which might be considered "mens sports" would include wrestling (REAL wrestling - not that WWF/WCW crap) or martial arts such as Kempo, Judo or Karate, and as I know all too well, these require an extremely high level of discipline, control, intelligence and training (while not always necessarily extreme physical strength) for one to succeed in them. I used to practise Judo myself (which is a non-agressive martial art) and would never have considered it to be a sport for a dumb-animal.

By the same token, men could easily argue that sports disciplines such as ice skating or gymnastics are more "exhibition" sports and require more that you be quick, supple, lythe, whatever- rather than being at your physical and mental peak. Each argument has it's merits- but saying outright that sports such as football (and I speak of "soccer" there, not necessarily the American version), rugby, hockey, hurling, etc. do not require intelligence or training simply because they are more "violent" is bordering on ignorance.

May be just semantics but I'd prefer to call them "contact" sports, personally, instead of "blood" sports - as there's a huge difference. In a "blood" sport, your objective is usually to brutally kill something- such as the deplorable fox hunts which still take place with alarming regularity in England.

We are in a relatively equal society these days, y'know... guys get into ice-skating, swimming, gymnastics, etc. - in fact the worlds top swimmers are, I'm sure, as has already been mentioned, - men. On the flip side, women are actively involved, in this country at least, in the more physical sports, such as rugby and hurling (or "camogie" as the female equivalent is called), although - naturally - not quite as much as the men, as nature seems to have dictated that the only general difference made between the sexes is that the men are usually physically stronger.

Anyway- I might as well conclude by saying that, in this diverse world, - everyone is unique- and everyone has their own ways in which they are better than others and ways in which they are not quite so good. It's impossible to fairly generalise in the form of nationality (... oh you're Irish, you must be blue eyed and red-haired, get drunk a lot and spout incomprehensible poetry in a twee accent, sitting by a log fire in your thatched cottage ... oh you're German, you must be a complete pain in the ar$e who speaks in an evil-sounding cacophonic tongue and is a stickler for routine and precision ... oh you're American, you must be a fat ba$tard couch potato with an IQ and attention span comparable to that of a banana... etc.) - or ... naturally enough, sex. It's just ridiculously unfair to make such a generalisation.

Men are stronger. So are women. Nyah.

I've said my bit.

_____
Bard

"Does my bum look big in this?" ... bloody right, it does.

[This message has been edited by Bard (edited 23-03-2001).]

pepperkin · 23-03-2001 2:46pm

By Bard..."Regarding the sports - Personally I couldn't be bothered with boxing but DO enjoy rugby (which is many times more physically demanding than American "Football") and football - and saying that these sports don't require training, talent or intelligence just seems ridiculous. Nothing could be further from the truth."

Once again, Bard, you've managed to miss my behind-the-words point entirely. Let me try and make this a bit clearer.

Think of an ice skater. Think of what she has to learn to do, and what she does every day, learning these things. Jumps, spins, moving about gracefully, all on a very slippery surface and all on a couple blades strapped to her feet.
Think of the soccer player. YES, he trains and YES, he practices but it is nowhere near the level of determination and physical practice needed since he is doing much the same things physically he did running around as a toddler.

I did NOT include any martial arts in my question because I KNOW they're exceptions, to almost every rule in the book. I love martial arts. I think they are beautiful, graceful, and a darn good way to defend oneself if neccessary. I also am aware that these require years of strict self discipline and study. Did I include those in my "blood sports?" NO! There was a REASON for that. Because I don't consider them as such, and so I didn't mention them. Oi...

By Bard..."We are in a relatively equal society these days, y'know... guys get into ice-skating, swimming, gymnastics, etc"

No kidding, where were you when we already discussed that?

You're still missing the generic, VERY open point as to what men and women on the whole as a society prefer to watch or get into. For every one male swimmer, ice skater, etc, theres 15 wanting to get into the gorier stuff. 90% of the men I know, (and I have asked them all) if asked why they like hockey will say "the blood and fighting!" NOT TO SAY THAT ALL GUYS GET INTO THAT! Just that men are more PRE-DISPOSED to it that women, on the whole. And I've known women who loved wrestling and really got off on the "CONTACT" sports thing, and good for them. Are we yet catching on to the definition of "generalization?"

Incidentally, I think baseball is cool.

Yeah, men are stronger, women are stronger, that my my entire POINT of my first post....

By Bard..."Each argument has it's merits- but saying outright that sports such as football (and I speak of "soccer" there, not necessarily the American version), rugby, hockey, hurling, etc. do not require intelligence or training simply because they are more "violent" is bordering on ignorance."

So I'm ignorant. What's your point? Did you comprehend I was speaking of the kinds and lengths of training involved between the "girlie" sports and the "blood" sports? I DO NOT include all mens sports in blood sports, actually, there's ONLY a few. I was asking specifically ABOUT those blood sports, not every mans sport on earth. Thats why I gave specific examples and backed them up rather than just saying "guy sports" because there are many, many, in fact most guy sports do not include that.
I wasn't saying "all guys like Boxing." I wanted an honest and intelligent answer from the guys who DO explaining WHY!

Everyone have a drink on me

Bard · 23-03-2001 3:03pm

Once again, Bard, you've managed to miss my behind-the-words point entirely. Let me try and make this a bit clearer.

Not quite true... I didn't miss your behind-the-words point at all, I just replied selectively to those points (mainly about sport admittedly) which I had an expressable opinion on.

he is doing much the same things physically he did running around as a toddler

I'd have to disagree with this. You may not get the full picture in America of just exactly what is involved in the training and level of athleticism required to be a professional soccer player, just as we in Europe may not be fully aware of what is involved in being a professional in hockey, baseball, etc. - but it's certainly a lot more than just the extension of what you did 'running around as a toddler'.

No kidding, where were you when we already discussed that?

Where was I when it was discussed earlier? - I was working... I was busy... sorry. Although my post-count on boards.ie may be fairly high, I don't always get a look-in and don't always get a chance to contribute to posts which interest me as early on in the conversation as I may like.

So I'm ignorant. What's your point?

I'm not, by the way, saying you're ignorant. I do, however, semantics aside, disagree with your interpretation of certain contact sports as 'blood' sports... which they're really not.

We're moving office at the moment - I'll be having plenty of drinks... firstly to celebrate a couple of jobs well done... secondly to help me forget the pain of a back injury I'm currently suffering... and thirdly... well who needs an excuse? - aren't all us Irish violent beer-swilling bullsh|t-talking neanderthals all the same?

Have fun,

_____
Bard

Hobbes · 23-03-2001 3:22pm

I think men are stronger then women at debating on webboards.

Seriously though who cares? Are blue eyed people stronger then green eyed people?

Figment · 23-03-2001 3:47pm

Yes

pepperkin · 23-03-2001 5:00pm

Bard...
Firstly, have a drink for me, you neanderthal

Secondly, what the h3ll did you do to your poor back? (Akkk...crap...I'm getting the womanly FIX IT!!!! urge...*runs for the backache medication...*)

Thirdly, sports are sports, the h3ll with it, let's talk about Music. Have you heard that new song by SR-71, "Politically Correct"? Great song

Women are lousy at debating on webboards, since we're too busy running around buying shoes and lo-cal items and making mens life h3ll! (or in my case, chasing kids around all morning, trying to get them dressed and out the door on time, and desperately trying to ingest enough caffeine to keep my eyes open...)

Ya know, I could REALLY fire up this board by saying "Women are stronger than men because men could NEVER handle pregnancy for 9 months, 20 hours of labor/delivery, and then a year of having a kid attached to the chest and gnawing on their nipples..."
But would I say a think like that? naahhh...LOL!

(Disclaimer...I don't mean that men never COULD possibly handle it, but they're smart enough not to ever want to try it!)

Evil Phil · 23-03-2001 5:30pm

Originally posted by pepperkin:

"Women are stronger than men because men could NEVER handle pregnancy for 9 months, 20 hours of labor/delivery, and then a year of having a kid attached to the chest and gnawing on their nipples..."

Ow

Paladin · 23-03-2001 7:21pm

Hmm.
She didnt mention how lucky men are to not have periods.

Perhaps she is some kind of gift from the gods? A peace offering for us getting to pee standing up, and them stuck with bleeding?
But then, women get the goddamn multiple orgasms!

pepperkin · 23-03-2001 7:40pm

lol...well the difference is, pregnancy is more voluntary than periods...those suck, especially the cramps, butguys get blueballs, so...it sortof works out.
As for multiple O's, I've known guys who have had them

SheroN · 24-03-2001 7:56pm

Green eyed people are stronger hobbbes....everyone knows that.

Blitzkrieger · 24-03-2001 11:20pm

Originally posted by Bard:

women are actively involved, in this country at least, in the more physical sports, such as rugby and hurling

Makes me remember my story about the "Hairy Hurler". Hearing that you'd think : Big guy who eats babies for breakfast. It turned out it was a girl in my class!

The arguments seem to be going around in circles again so I probably shouldn't mention this, as I don't want to get into it : someone mentioned that men and women are equally intelligent. It's not true because our minds work completly differently, so you can't really compare. Personally I think women got the better deal but that could be "grass is greener" syndrome.

There's a topic on it somewhere. If anyone cares I started it and it was titled "women are stupid!"

MEN or WOMEN or BOTH

Comments