Bel , "the Man" and Kosovo

Belisarius

This really makes me laugh

After the "Last great war of the millenium" was finished the dust settled and the chips fell like so

Serbian military elements are forced to pull out of the now semi-autonomous Kosovo *though no independence has been achieved and no promises have been made* .The serbian Motherland is economically crippled by Relentless NATO attacks on Serbian infastructure and Industry *in the name of Democracy and peace no less* ,More civilians than Military have been killed . Kosovo falls into a deluge of Vengence against the new minority : Ethnic Serbs . The KLA become "Rebels without a cause" thier motives and methods becoming more sinister with involvements in attacks on Serbian soil and increasing suspicions of KLA involvement in Kosovan organised crime . meanwhile Serbia has deposed Slobodobodob whith a new liberal regime in place ,however the nation is far from secure due to the backlash of distressed Milosichites within the land ,not to mention a crisis in national identity and a annihalated economy ,all down to the Collective Moral piety of the first world . and now when theyre Enforced assistance is most needed , They make gestures to pull out , Leaving Serbia to encroach upon Kosovo once more ,while the KLA prepare to defend thier never-recieved independence Vehemently .

I mean wherever youre sympathies lie in the Balkans you have to admit , Some sadistic ******* In the west must be laughing his ass off

---

Shrewgar!

DadaKopf

it's just the usual response from outside states when something like this happens. the UN and Nato swoop in to prevent war throughout the greature europe region and when their moral duty is done, they pull out, supporting the sovereign states to sort it out among themselves.

That whole area is a mess and I'm afraid to say, i think they simply have to go through the motions and no-one can really do anything about it.

that said, the question of the methods of western intervention has to be questioned. What is the right way to go about stablising the region? There are too many approaches and too many complications down there for anyone to be able to make a learned decision.

In any case, the head honchos and field reporters and correspondants saw this months ago - ethnic albanian reprisals, KLA reprisals and disillusionment leading to further conflict and dubious actions. Then theres the greater problem of a guilty and insulted serbia.

It's sad to say but western intervention is limited to the venture being profitable. Any instability down there now won't be resolved efficiently because there's no money in it. It's a shame really; a sad indictment of so-called humanitarianism.

---

"I collect spores, moulds and fungus."

Blitzkrieger

I think there's a lot to say for having the right intentions (sort of). The west moved in to stop the ethnic cleansing and did a lot to help the refugees. We offered help to Serbia if they punished those responsible and helped those refugees who wanted to return do so. It did all end badly but that's cos people are *******s.

At least we're not China. They wanted to stand by and let it happen.

darthmise

When people use the word 'propaganda' most people think of nazi dirty tricks of WWII.
But the west is as guilty as anyone of it.
The fact is people make money from war, McDonnell Douglas and the likes, and all you need is a war to peddle your ware.

Not so long ago The U.S. bombed a facility in Azerbaijan, I think because they claimed they were making biological weapons. It turned out, conclusively that it was a pharmaceutical factory. And the next day there wasn't a thing in the news about it. Thats the power of the media.
And because of where we are geographically we get the English news fed to us, a nation in bed with the U.S. for years now.

We only see what they want us to see. That is propaganda because it's not an unbiased account.

The U.S. did not go to The Balkans in the name of Human rights it was because they hadn't fired a shot in anger in too long. They are the only Country involved in every major war this century.

It's the people who make the weapons who pick the fights and then lean on the government.

George W. frightens me.
Before the election he made a big promise to cut down on CO2 emmissons and yesterday he did a u-turn and stated that he didn't think the industries should have to burden the cost of these very necessary changes. He is in someone's pocket obviously, and thats the message that has been sent out now as well to anyone who could do with a little presidential aid.

Hobbes, could you post a link to one of the american papers on that story if you can find one, I'd like to read a bit more about it.

bugler

Of course Bush is in someones pocket.Around election time, i saw the table of corporate donations to both Bush and Gore, it made for sad reading. These companies don't donate hundreds of millions of dollars for nothing you know.and their generosity must be repaid.Gore wasnt much better than Bush in terms of his a.rse being owned by big business, thats the nature of politics(US politics in particular).Its really disheartening for anyone who believes that there are things more important than money in this world, but the fact is that money does indeed make the world go around.

[This message has been edited by bugler (edited 16-03-2001).]

[This message has been edited by bugler (edited 16-03-2001).]

Hobbes

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by darthmise:
Hobbes, could you post a link to one of the american papers on that story if you can find one, I'd like to read a bit more about it.</font>

It would be more history books. Look for the "Night of the colonels". The US helped with a coup de etat in Greece.

darthmise

No, I was hoping for a cutting or something on Bush and the emissions story yesterday, if u can find one. cheers.

Yossarian

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Hobbes:
It would be more history books. Look for the "Night of the colonels". The US helped with a coup de etat in Greece. </font>

Was that largly as a result of the agreed carve up of eastern europe between USSR, UK and USA at the end of the second world war?
Seem to remember that USSR agreed to halt communist activities in Greece as it was agreed to be withing the british sphere of influenze. Likewise Yugoslavia was to be within the USSR sphere of influence.

Clintons Cat

well the west tried non intervention>Croatia,
partial intervention>Bosnia
and total intervention>Kosovo

hindsight what a wonderful invention,tell me bel what was your solution for dealing with a man who orders the murders of entire communities by the village?and who proudly coined the phrase "Ethnic Cleansing"

bugler

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Clintons Cat:
tell me bel what was your solution for dealing with a man who orders the murders of entire communities by the village?
</font>

That could be lots of men,and not all from Balkans/Mid East/Africa.

Clintons Cat

sure,point taken.
but with milosovich they tried everything,before resorting to force.
Saying oh worse things have happened kind of ducks the issue a little...

[This message has been edited by Clintons Cat (edited 16-03-2001).]

Belisarius

Taking the posts In order

As always Datakoph yer on the ball . But Blitzkriger ...Id have to say , All the good intentions in the world doesnt excuse the mess theyve made of an already fairly crap area *and theese good intentions were truly superficial ,as always* . As for helping Serbia after they punish the respnsible ;Well id have to say the true cause of it doesnt lie soley with Belgrade , and thier would have been a damn sight fewer refugees if the North atlantic treaty organisation *A relic of the cold war , desperately trying to vindicate itself in a post-communist enviornment , trying to protect a massive beaurocracy by becoming as one Dutch CS player put it "The UN with Bombers" * had kept thier noses out of it .


To Hobbes : theyres an element of truth thier aswell , If anyone saw a BBC documentary about a year ago , It did lay alot of the blame for the NATO intervention on the KLAs manipulation of world media and the ineptitude of various Nato/UN/US envoys ,not least of all the hapless Madeline albright

Like Hobbes said too , Propoganda is still alive and kicking in the Heart of the Democratic world.Religious Bias , Xenophobia and Racism are inherent US Interventionism policies .Also horrifying is the sheer punctuality of theese international incidents , since the major Media and Political coup pulled on Iraq back in the early 90s , theese acts of "peace keeping" have been growing in intensity and frequency ...Indeed the hunger for a hate figure within the Industrialised world shows no sign of contentment .

Bugler: Well thats hard to swallow .Gore *the real Pres ,in case youve been living under a rock in my backgarden for a year* Had the making of a good president , with sound economic ,Social and ecological policies , while Bush *the Bush name synonamous with political Influence* stood on the shaky ground of Being an "Outsider" a "Family man" and his only notable policy being "The upkeep of the nations defenses" . No doubt to protect against the Evil Empires of Iraq Cuba Serbia no doubt ,coming to Kill uncle Sam , rape his wife and nick thier Apple pies with thier Shattered economies and thirdworld armies and the like .

As for Yoss , good point , though it wouldnt had been surrendured to the USSR as a satelite so easily if they had backed the Chekniks instead of the Partisans during WW2 ,and we all forget that the Serbs were slaughtered in thier hundreds of thousands by Croats during WW2? .

And *sigh* Clintons Cat .Well to you id say that however you handle it you only look to the Kosovan conflict for "Donts" rather than "do's" besides as Bugler pointed out , thier are despotisms all over the world ,lots of whom are US backed ...dont hear too much outcry bout them now , do you?

Belisarius
-Your friendly neighbourhood *******

---

Shrewgar!

Belisarius

Also ethnic cleansing? I believe that was first thought up after WW2 when Germans were forced to move from Polish claimed territories into a new ,smaller , but nice germany...Forced upon by the allies ...I suppose it was different for them because they won

Hobbes

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by DadaKopf:
it's just the usual response from outside states when something like this happens. the UN and Nato swoop in to prevent war throughout the greature europe region and when their moral duty is done, they pull out, supporting the sovereign states to sort it out among themselves.</font>

What makes you think that they didn't set the incident? The US got caught with Greece remember. What makes you think they haven't interfered with anyone else?

Clintons Cat

well if you want to split hairs you could consider the tsarist pogroms a form of ethnic cleansing,

anyway what was the west to do?
Nothing?
Well Done what a brilliant strategy towards world peace.It was called Laisser Faire and America got the blame for that as well...

Belisarius

CC , the point i was making is I believe that was the first instance of "Ethnic Cleansing" that is the Phrase ethnic cleansing , not the act.

Firstly , it wasnt the "West" *through Nato* who should have been involved .UN should have gone in , theyre marginally less incompetant and havent got the weaponary to do that much damage

And as always the emphasis should have been on negotiation , Constant negotiation -even when they ignored it . also The bombing campaign had no right to spread into Serbia itself , as a supposed "peacekeeping" operation it should have engaged only military forces , no economic Infrastrure / as this undoubtedly caused civilian deaths .Also Ground forces should have been commited. What sort of effective peacekeeping campaign is waged from the sky?
as a French Military figure said sometime after "What sort of soldier is able to kill but afraid to die"
-Bel
Mild mannered belisarius by day , by night : The Human *******!

DadaKopf

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">it wasnt the "West" *through Nato* who should have been involved .UN should have gone in , theyre marginally less incompetant and havent got the weaponary to do that much damage</font>

Bel, for starters, Nato became involved in the the Balkan crisis as a result of a UN peace resolution - they effectively sub-contracted the region to a regional 'crisis management' organisation. The new idea is that the UN will regionalise crisis management to local forces throughout the globe - effectively, Nato was taking orders from the UN but acting independently, if that makes sense.

Also, it's difficult to negotiate with a country when each is effectively at war and/or refuses to open diplomatic channels. It's a shame to say it but, sometimes the only available diplomacy is war.

I don't dount the actions in the Balkans achieved a kind of stablisation in the region but obviously, like in any situation, the 'morally responsible' interloper left more of a mess following the conflict. It in no way condones what has happened or what's happening but it does explain it.

---

"I collect spores, moulds and fungus."

Clintons Cat

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Belisarius:
Also ethnic cleansing? I believe that was first thought up after WW2 when Germans were forced to move from Polish claimed territories into a new ,smaller , but nice germany...Forced upon by the allies ...I suppose it was different for them because they won</font>

well apart from poland fell under the jurisdiction of the USSR after the war and Western Influence was at an alltime low with Cuddly Uncle Joe.Please Please Please dont tell me he his another in your list of misunderstood martyrs bel.

bugler

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Belisarius:
Bugler: Well thats hard to swallow .Gore *the real Pres ,in case youve been living under a rock in my backgarden for a year* Had the making of a good president , with sound economic ,Social and ecological policies
</font>

You can find it hard to swallow all you like. I'll try and find that table of donations today,but i have a feeling its back in my place in college.Anyway, its true.Bush is worse in this sense,but not by that much.When being asked about how he felt that democratic voters saw him as haivng cost them the election Ralph Naider justified his refusal to withdraw(and surely hand victory to Gore)on the basis that: "Al Gore is a slave to Corporate business."
I'll try find the table.
Is it that you doubt the figures? Or you doubt I've seen such an article? If not,then that means you think that these businesses and corporations are donating these huge sums of money out of pure kindhearted generosity.I know donations have to be accepted to run a succesful campaign, but they also have to be repaid.

Clintons Cat

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Not so long ago The U.S. bombed a facility in Azerbaijan, I think because they claimed they were making biological weapons. It turned out, conclusively that it was a pharmaceutical factory. And the next day there wasn't a thing in the news about it. Thats the power of the media.
And because of where we are geographically we get the English news fed to us, a nation in bed with the U.S. for years now.

We only see what they want us to see. That is propaganda because it's not an unbiased account.
</font>

i think the incedent you are thinking of was the bombing of sites within Afganistan and sudan linked to Osmin Bin Laden,in reprisal for a spate of embasy bombings and a suicide bombing of a US Warship entering Saudi Arabia Harbour.
The Press is indeed biased but i find it hard to beleive the Irish News Media is influenced by its British Counterpart,are Irish hacks really as lazy as their British Counterparts that they take their lead from "Ozzie"Murdoch and Sky News?
Please say it is not true,for the sake of us all...
Bouncing this around at the time Murdoch was negotiating a new Satellite Launch aimed at the Blossoming Chinese Middle Class Market stories on sky news and in the News International controlled Press criticising Chinas treatment of Budists (those guys sure know how to annoy totallitarian regimes dont they?)in Tibet and Forced Labour Camps were pulled at the last minuete much to the dismay of the journalists who had gone to the not inconsiderable risk of compiling the stories to coincide with the Chinese Premiers visit to Britain.
If you can find any archive material of the Chinese visit in news internationals vault,post it i could do with a laugh

Question Everything.
Make Your Own Descisions.

Paladin

For those of you who's views are completely influenced by modern politics and news of the last decade, then you should educate yourselves on the history of the Balkans. It really is quite amazing reading. The history channel has done some good documentaries and what has been going on there is astounding. The number of incredible incidents, how espionage decided their fate in ww2 and so many other things, really is worth investigating for yourselves if you could ever be arsed

The European Tinderbox I think was a description used for the area.

This ethnic fighting in Yugoslavia has been going on for hundreds of years.

There is no good side as far as Im concerned. One might have commited more atrocities today, but yesterday the other side was the culprit.

The problem down there is an absolutely pig headed, violent, malevolent vengeful mentality that has persisted for centuries.
Every conflict is seen simply as an opportunity to get back at the opposition.
The UN arent at fault for any of the problems. There is nothing at all that they can do short of imposing martial law for a few generations until they forget their hatred.

Blaming the UN/US/Nato for the current problems is ridiculous. Stepping in every time there is some attempt at genocide is all they can do. The politics of the region is unsolvable.

The reporters for this history channel documentary were talking to oridinary civilians, who would tell you how awful the other side were, and continue to tell you an entire history of the atrocities commited against them since the 1500's. How they can still hold a grudge is absolutely flabberghasting! They STILL havent learned that all it is is a big circle of murder.

They will continue with their hatred for a long long time to come, but guaranteed anyone native will argue, "Oh no, it is not our fault, it is their fault! We wanted to stop!".

It is a sad state of humanity. Todays violence is part of a 500 year long fued between every ethnic group there, and it will continue many years longer.

Paladin

Just as a point of note, does any of this situation sound familiar?
*cough*northernirelandmiddleeastandmanymore*

Clintons Cat

Sensible words paladin

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The UN arent at fault for any of the problems. There is nothing at all that they can do short of imposing martial law for a few generations until they forget their hatred.</font>

Sadly even this has been tried in Cyprus and that has done little to dispell the animosity between the Greek and Turkish communities.
The really fu<ked up thing is people left to their own devices do get along,Bosnians,Croats and Serbs have intermarrying,living side by side and generally drinking and fu,king together for Centuries then some politician whips up a crisis in the media <state run in slobos case but not necessarily> and every one goes nuts and starts reaching for a gun.

DadaKopf

yeah Paladin, the history of the Balkans makes for really fascinating reading and often times quite chilling in the events and manner in which history has been played out down there.

Trying not to sound insulting or talking down to the region, the problems down there are too complex to blame on any one nation, community, government or politico-military organisation.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The problem down there is an absolutely pig headed, violent, malevolent vengeful mentality</font>

hehe, this isn't too far from the truth in some respects; there were episodes in the serbian history, ruthless episodes, that were played out between families of farmers and one, Karajordevic [possibly a descendant of the living one] was a pig farmer - who became a king.

Back to the point: there is no one good side to the whole history of the region - each side has at one time caused atrocities or participated in them. If it wasn't skirmishes against Turks and their collaborators, is was the Chetniks against the Partisans, or the Communists against the others, Tito's iron lung system of a multi-state yugoslavia or the recent killings by the serbs, montenegrans, albanians, KLA and so on.

There are so many reasons for past and present aggression - there's the cultural essentialist argument (those serbs are just like that anyway), the fact that actual violence has created deep resentment throughout the region, the endemic manner in which history is blatantly used as propaganda with facts being altered or invented simply to suit one side's account, the fact that Milosevic is a power crazed madman, money (lack of and those who have it) is an issue around which people can fuel resentment and cause previously non-existant divisions like in Bosnia and so on and so on.

There are a whole swathe of books that compellingly capture the hitorical depth of Yugoslavia.

Here are some good books:

Yugoslavia: Death of a Nation by Laura Silber

The Serbs, History, Myth and the Destruction of Yugoslavia by Tim Judah (and another one called Kisoso: War and Revenge)

The National Question in Yugoslavia: Origins, History, Politics by Ivo Banac

For anyone interested in the Tito communist era, check out books by Milovan Djilas

well, there ya go

---

"I collect spores, moulds and fungus."

Paladin

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The problem down there is an absolutely pig headed, violent, malevolent vengeful mentality</font>

Btw, I was really referring to the people who fitted that description. Its not because of the region or race or anything. Its because for many this thinking is a way of life. This, like I said, is pretty stereotypical of almost any area of consistant conflict. Its a pity.

DadaKopf

yeh yeh, i know! i ust thought i'd raise another point call it useless trivia!

i think when any culture is batterd by others and themselves for so long, it becomes enedmic in their mindset as well as outsiders', looking in.

---

"I collect spores, moulds and fungus."

Blitzkrieger

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Belisarius:
Taking the posts In order

there would have been a damn sight fewer refugees if the North atlantic treaty organisation had kept thier noses out of it .
</font>

Probably true. There might have been a lot more corpses though.

To say that NATO need only have attacked military targets is crazy. NATO's thinking was to cripple thier military, not kill individuals. Would you have had them try to kill every soldier instead?

Belisarius

Err to reply to datakoph anyway , I accept it was a concious decision to let Nato go in on bahalf of the UN , I just dont agree with it , The amount of Collateral and human damage done by NATO forces would never have been possible by the UN . And , theres little doubt in my mind that the UN would have been more effective , no great compliment considering the **** up Nato left .
As for a stabalising effect ,hardly . Economically both Kosovo and Serbia have been knocked back decades . having a derogatory effect Economically on the entire region . Also the Albanian extremists of the area, believing thier on a bit of a roll , now threaten Macedonia.threatening to plunge the area into more trouble.


On to CC:
Well I think youve missed my point . The movement of Germans away from traditional German lands to provide sea acsess to Poland had little to do with the post-war power struggle after WW2 between Capitalist/Communist factions , rather the disrespect held for the German people and thier desire to assert superiorty by way of punishment .They justified it at the time by drawing on Wartime predjudices , ignoring the basic rights of the Germans. *And no , even I cant defend old Joey *

To bugler:
Well everyones a slave to business in US politics bar the greens *A commendable party incidentily* but then the fact remains : To wage a political campaign across an entire continent costs alot of money , for this reason both Bush and Gore *indeed Republicans and Democrats for some time now* have sold thier souls for Corperate backing , Bush I think youll find is equally indebted to his backers . But beyond this point the fact remains Al Gore would have been a far superior president than the slack jawed hick currently leading the free world , there mightnt be that much between them but considering the importance of the post i dont think anyone would be condemned for splitting hairs


-Bel.

---

Shrewgar!

Clintons Cat

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Well I think youve missed my point . The movement of Germans away from traditional German lands to provide sea acsess to Poland had little to do with the post-war power struggle after WW2 between Capitalist/Communist factions , rather the disrespect held for the German people and thier desire to assert superiorty by way of punishment .They justified it at the time by drawing on Wartime predjudices , ignoring the basic rights of the Germans. </font>

sorry bel this part of your last post makes no sense when contrasted with

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Also ethnic cleansing? I believe that was first thought up after WW2 when Germans were forced to move from Polish claimed territories into a new ,smaller , but nice germany...Forced upon by the allies ...I suppose it was different for them because they won</font>

Soviet attidudes to Germans after the second world war were notoriously harsh. look into what happened at babi yar to understand where the hostillities came from,the Poles suffered even worse if that is possible under the Nazis.Considered Undermensch the adult population was reduced to slave labour,the intelligensia was liquidated,the Herrenvolk or ethnic germans on the otherhand found their standards of living rose and were provided with administrative jobs within the riech bearucracy.The Soviets certainly did not discourage retaliation by the poles.
The Western Allies on the other hand;Perhaps learning from the mistakes of the versailles treaty ,perhaps as a bulwark against communism.sought to reconstruct germany and rehabillitate the germans back into the democratic world.The treatment of Germans after the second world war had everything to do with the post-war power struggle after WW2 between Capitalist/Communist factionsin fact in the late forties it defined the cold war.I.E the Berlin Airlift.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The movement of Germans away from traditional German lands to provide sea acsess to Poland </font>

and i think you might be refering to the polish corridor here which was created in 1918,but i am not sure please qualify this statement.

Belisarius

Ok ok you have me CC , Ive made a boo boo , but in my Defense:

You state the annexation of German lands and thier attatchment to poland had little to do with punishment , I disagreee . The lands handed over (Prussia).Had originally been part of a greater Poland several centuries before hand before becoming a State of its own in the 15th century I believe.It remained an independent Dutchy until the formation of the German state in the 19th century , the handing over of prussia was a petty penalty on the grounds that Prussia was a polish state after long before becoming german .
Onto the movement of People
youve actually lost me now , I dont believe I ever referred to Russia and its occupation of east Germany till the formation of the east german state , indeed it has little to do with the conversation . I refer to the immediate aftermath of the war when thousand were moved from the annexed land into Germany . You question the harsh treatment of Germany by the Allies in contrast of the rebuilding it aided in , Id say to you this had little to do with romantic clemency and more to do with the protection of Export markets and defense against a Communist threat. The Rebuilding of Germany was integral to this ,both through its industrial Inertia and the formation of a first line of defense against Communist hostilities , which could be seen in the development of the German army through the 50s to 80s ,as for the treatment of Ethnic Germans , while i question its relevance i think youll find theyre dominance to be more attributed to Socio-economic status than any racial penchant for Aryans within the East German/Polish regimes.But where you may ask , have you got me?
Well I conceded the fact that I got my Wars mixed up ...it was silly of me I know , Can you ever forgive me?

---

Shrewgar!

DadaKopf

bel, do u study this stuff. r u in college or working or what? i'm just interested