Those dastardly Taliban

bugler

They are just not right. It wasnt enough that they order women to stay at home(no work for you!), and cover up totally,and not speak to men other than relatives. it wasnt enough that they have almost completely sealed off afghanistan from all foreign "interference"(including the Red Cross and other AID groups afaik)while many of their people live in misery. now they have gone and decided that all statues are "un-islamic". at a convention of 63 islamic countries the talibans decision was condemned. They are destroying ancient buddhist statues with rockets and other heavy weapons.Really cool, big,old amazing statues.
Sad.

Paladin

Thats what comes of being small minded a$$holes I guess.

pat kenny

Has anyone been watchin Langan behind the lines,
hes visiting a load of muslim countries, he visited afganistan and its illegal to take pictures of people,only pictures of buildings aother objects are allowed and yet when he visited talivan troops they all dived to get in the video and said "film me film me allah gave such a pretty face"

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I like stories.

Shinji

There's a line at which people's rights to exercise their own beliefs becomes secondary to the need for some common f*cking sense. They crossed this line a long, long time ago.

Clintons Cat

yeah,
These statues date from the 3rd century and are the largest standing buddahs in the world.
It appears they are holding them to ransom in order to extract a lightening of sanctions against their country,if they really wanted to blow them up they could have done it already without anyone knowing any the wiser.
Bunch of Fascists

GreenHell

its all based on there interputation of the koran which is well just a tat extreme.

The religon itself is not the cause of opressed lifestyle in this country its the nutz who inflect it.

DadaKopf

Behind the Lines on BCC showed up exactly the reasons for muslim extremism - it's not at all unique. Like Ireland, Israel and former Yugoslavia, a large part of the problem is the socio-economic climate these coutries find themselves in. When things get difficult, it's always easy for countries to blame scapegoats for their problems and turn to extreme solutions. For example, langan showed that the Taliban's decree that women completely cover themselves when outside shows the measures that are being taken to 'cure' the country or its problems. Yes there was anarchy before the Taliban but after the Taliban, the anarchy and injustice has just gone underground. The real problem is the lack of money and social stability that it can bring - though it's not the whole solution. Only when the UN involves itself in establishing a compatible form of government across the entire region will the injustices begin to fade. well, that's my two cents.

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"I collect spores, moulds and fungus."

Clintons Cat

hi nuero,
no smelly socks is someone else entirely,
but i think we have both posted on fugly'
<i got bored with fugly in a weekend.>
Plus our experiences of drugs are similar
but personaly i disagree with acid entirely and i am thinking of quiting e also.
I like the Socks connection,work of a true conspiracy theorist j/k.Spooky Coincidence though.

ok back on topic

Yes Afganistan is a Islamic country but it has not always been so.The Buddahs predate the arrival of Islam by several centuries.
The fact that the buddahs have remaind unscarred for hundreds of years proves that Islam has historically had respect for other cultures,another case in point is the Wailing wall in juruselem which remained unscathed throughout the riegns of several sultans.(the rest of the temple having been raized to the ground by the Romans)
Of course not all Islamic Empires throughout history have been so benign in their interpretations of the Koran,the Moguls (i believe) in northwestern india were notorious for defacing (literally) statues and carvings in their occupied territories and the legacies of this have repurcussions in the modern world,In the Mid 90s the BJP in India attempted to Demolish a mosque sited on the remains of a Holy Temple (i think the birthplace of Krishnu) that led to severe Riots and Murders that lasted weeks.
Anyway History Lesson Over...Whats My Point?
Er lets check
Ok i mean if the Talleban really found these idols as offensive as they claim,they could have arrived with a Truck Load of Explosives overnight and Demolished them before anyone was any the wiser,but they didnt they deceided to declare their intentions to a justifiably horrified world in order to lever ecconomic advantage.
The similarities of their policies to fascism,>Control of the media,Indoctrination of the young,scapegoating of women and foriegners,murder,torture and imprisonment of political opponents,i could go on but i think you get my point.
cheers

SheroN

Yea but clinton...it was only one paragraph long.....

Clintons Cat

???


[This message has been edited by Clintons Cat (edited 04-03-2001).]

Celt

Me thinks he is talking bout the Scam post

Belisarius

*usually a Half life poster , but this caught my eye so be Gentle *
True it looks like the Talheban are Ignorant gits ,but its an Islamic state and those statues are fundimentaly offensive to its Islamic population , no matter what theyre historical importance are .
The Nation of Islam have a documented proplem with Heathen Iconry .Its the same in Egypt , while youll find an established tourist industry , the more zealous of Egyptians are very unhappy with the role the Ancient egyptian *un-Islamic* culture plays in thier national Identity , It may seem a bit intolerant but thats Islam for you

J'allah Habibi , baby

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Time waits for No man ...except Bob MaClean the Sex Machine

Belisarius

Also I should point out , I refer to Islam as Neo-Isamic Fundamentalism , which has its routes in Post Crusade schisms within Islam which found route within Central Asia


-Not Bob Maclean

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Time waits for No man ...except Bob MaClean the Sex Machine

Clintons Cat

thats islam for you?

fu<kng hell even the iranian press is flaming the afgans for this,
fu<k off and stick to playing half life you ignorant little troll,

was that gentle enough for you?

and yes Egypt Pyramids and idols have been under islamic control for centuries, long before the concept of ecconomic tourism was even dreamt up.

ps hi whitelancer,i am just getting warmed up

Clintons Cat

So what you meant is, "It may seem a bit intolerant but thats Neo-Isamic Fundamentalism for you?"

Right...?




[This message has been edited by Clintons Cat (edited 05-03-2001).]

neuro-praxis

Hi Clinton's Cat, what are you talking about there? Um, isn't Afghanistan an Islamic nation? you confused me there. Could you repost and verify what you meant?

Are you the same person as Smelly Socks? You have strikingly similar views...and well, Bill Clinton's Cat is *called* Smelly Socks...

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Give me back my towel. I'll sue.

Magwitch

The atrocities the Taliban have been carrieing out are beyond even what the Nazis did, and to their own people.

However it should be pointed out the Taliban did not start n Afghanistan but in Pakistan where Afghan refugees were trained and indocternated under Pakistan supervision. The idea being that the "islamic" kudos would be good for Pakistans image.

The desruction of the statues comes on the back of horendus crimes perpetrated against innocent civilians for years. However its ramifications are frightening. By destroying a countries history you leave only the imediate. With history destroyed, the only frame of reference the Afghan people will have to structure their society (now and in the future)is the Taliban.

This is truely disturbing (1984 comes to mind). Is it the fate of Islamic countries under extremists to be populated by nothing more than Slaves, sand and warped interpretations of the Koran?

I applaude those Muslims who have had the courage to stand up to this savagery, both through word and deed. And I should like to condemn unreservidly as "cowards" those muslims in the west who voice support for the Taliban based soley on their religious sympathies. They enjoy western lifestyles and civil rights denied the Afghan people under the Taliban.

Afghanistan is a country not a religion. Someone should wake up and bomb the Taliban back to their spiritual home in the stone age (Iran may yet do it).

Fidelis

Opium is illegal in Afghanistan, but the Talian impose a duty on growing the poppy which they defend by saying that the opium isn't actually made there but in someother country.

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Nil Desperandum

Belisarius

Good stuff magwitch , intresting to see the UK islamic community standing up for theyre Islamic brethren , but you don see em slumming it with Lebaneese shi-ites do you ?

As for Clinton Cat *sox aint it?*
Well yeah ..what ever the pros and cons of a degree of Islamic culture that can be found within the Talhebans Afghanistan its a legitimate religon and theyres not much you can do about it , but it raises a larger question ,the role of the Woman in Islam...not just it Hard-line Afghanistan but throught the Nation of Islam , I remember once i was in a spanish city of Donnasdias in a bar , A man who looked like a moroccan was litteraly dragging his wife across the street by the hair , nobody could do anything for her because of the legitamate sub-serviant role of the woman in Islam , it would interfere with both the Man and the womans religous rights , It hardly seems fair does it

Not Bob Maclean

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Time waits for No man ...except Bob MaClean the Sex Machine

Belisarius

Also Im proabably treading the path of Salamon Rusty here but :

Islam never should have been a religon of the magnitude its reached , It imposed its doctrine by force rather than ideal , The Islamic Arabs of Saudi Arabia spread thier Religion throught Northern Africa , Western and Central Asia , the Middle east and even spain , they were finally stopped in france by Charles Martel ,but Islam had been firmly established as a world religion in just over a Decade in the eight century

Not Bob maclean , not an ensign anymore

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Time waits for No man ...except Bob MaClean the Sex Machine

Clintons Cat

magwitch you are spot on,
a close comparision of the tallebans current policies would be Pol Pot's year Zero,or Chairman Mao's Cultural revolution both with similar aims of eradicating a nations culture and history for their own agendas.

Belend*thats it isnt it? I do not need an alter ego to deal with an ignorant troll like yourself.
Mis treatment of women is not an exclusivly islamic failing,on new years eve i saw an english man bottle a woman and then return with a baseball bat to threaten her friends.
From this should i draw the conclusion that all Westerners beat females in the street with bottles?

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Where ever there is misery you will find me

Clintons Cat

actually true islam is an evangelical religion,
please continue enlightening us with your amazing insights into the islamic mind,i could direct you to a few hate sites if you run out of ideas.

Clintons Cat

"throughout the nation of islam"?

dont make me laugh,the only serious subscriber to the ideals of pan islamic unity is Colonel Gadaffi and he is mad.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
what ever the pros and cons of a degree of Islamic culture that can be found within the Talhebans Afghanistan its a legitimate religon and theyres not much you can do about it</font>

yeah they said something like that about Hitlers policies and state soveriegnty in the thirties,but just because i cant stop it doesnt mean i should like it...

[This message has been edited by Clintons Cat (edited 05-03-2001).]

Belisarius

Heh I knew that would draw some flak

I hate to play the ace in the hole *right phrase?* But theyre is of course the dubious life history of Mohammed himself , A documented traveller ,Mohammed undoubtedly had contact with Jewish and Christian pilgrims throughout the Middle east , Theese influences can be seen in Islam ,to take an athiestic and indeed clinical view of life it can be reasonably assumed that Mohammed's Islam is a combination of several religion mixed in with some very practical Ideology which just happened to manifest into a very sound religion , not to say Islam doesnt have strong points , Its strong family Ideals for example , but the flipside of the coin is its ability to be manipulated into what its followers want to see , Take for instance its ability to be used as a catalyst for Violence and war . The same is true of most religions (The Islamic conquests of the eary middle ages and its direct comparison the the Christian crusades eh ? eh?) but wether because of some flaw of Doctrine or the Socio-Historical nature of its faithful , its seems to fall victim to it wholesale

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Time waits for No man ...except Bob MaClean the Sex Machine

Belisarius

Oh yeah ...forgot *in the spirit of Double Post Sunday* Colonel gadaffi is a Islamic fundamentalist *that is to say he believes fundamentaly in the idea of Islam rather than the dorogatory stigma of "rabble-rousery" its earned thanks to the Anti-Arab nature of US Interventionism policies* but Mad ? I think not , just scapegoat for CNN , the First world needs a Hate Figure *especially since the fall of the "Commies"*
Gafaffi is just one in a long list of Negative influences throughout the word who gets picked on due to US desire to "Get out there and Kick some ass" Think Castro , The Iatollah , Sadam Hussein and Milosovich
I mean please

Clintons Cat

yeah well i love a good flame war too,

well played sir,

Belisarius

Also ..while I agree with magwitch's earlier statement , I re-iterate : The Telheban isnt strictly a political organisation operating through force , Rather a Religious Ideal operating through a Governmental path which operates through force . And as for Identity replacement , I dont think thier Buddhist heritage rates too highly in your average Afghani Muslim zealot ...do you ?

Clintons Cat

heh,so now your ****ed cause i called gadafi mad?

seems i know how to troll as well

Fast learner aint i?

Draw your own conclusions,

Belisarius

Ooops sorry to interrupt yer posting spree ,
Right back at ya ...wouldnt be very intresting if we all agreed , would it?

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Time waits for No man ...except Bob MaClean the Sex Machine

Belisarius

Well Its not so much that you called him mad ...so much that you assumed hes mad cos he has an opinion contrary to that of the western world...I mean dont believe everything you see of Sky news folks

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Time waits for No man ...except Bob MaClean the Sex Machine

Clintons Cat

"I dont think thier Buddhist heritage rates too highly in your average Afghani Muslim zealot ."

Probaly not and until last week i didnt know they had one,and most people will probally wonder why the world is so ****ed at what in the scope of things ammounts to a bunch of rocks.
Your average Afghani Muslim zealot probally finds such things an affront to his beliefs because it raises difficult questions which the black and white world of blind faith cannot answer.Again draw parrellels between the destructions of these idols and the book burnings of the Nazis and destruction of works of art they considered 'disturbing'.
Here Endeth the sermon

Nice One

Belisarius

*Last one I promise...2:30 and The bed calls*
Euch ...you exaspirate me ... You cant really compare it to Nazi book burning , when i said it did rate too highly ,I meant it didnt rate at all , I mean you spoke of eradicating the buddist afghani Culture and heritage ,that was done when islam first moved in . In the Talhebans search for search for a Islamic Puritan state , theyre really only clearing up . The last place youd find outcry about theese statues is Afghanistan , theese statues mean nothing to your average Johnny Afghani , Theyre only one thing unislamic ,its not exactly a mature stance but its the truth ...But then the whole question of Governmental responsibility comes up and State/Church Fudge makes it that the Talheban is actually the Governmental extension of the Quoran..if you get my drift , which i believe ive lost at this stage ..

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Time waits for No man ...except Bob MaClean the Sex Machine

TwoShedsJackson

So this is what happen when fundamentalist religious maniacs get into power - quelle surprise.

If they find the statues so offensive they should take up India's offer to remove them whole and resite them in India - and probably get a pile of cash off India for so doing.

But they decided to milk the publicity value as mentioned earlier - for every right-thinking person who is appalled by this act of cultural & historical destruction there will be a Taliban supporter who will become even more entrenched.

As regards sanctions and such I sincerely doubt the Taliban give a damn about that - they want to return Afghanistan to a self-sufficent agrarian economy a la Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge anyway.

They disgust me.

adnans

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Belisarius:
Gafaffi is just one in a long list of Negative influences throughout the word who gets picked on due to US desire to "Get out there and Kick some ass" Think Castro , The Iatollah , Sadam Hussein and Milosovich
I mean please</font>

by God man, i can see Castro being one of those "negative" influences (dont know about Gadaffi since i have soft spot for him since i was born there) . but for sadam (for one he is mad, i tell ye) and especially milosevic who is just ****ed up.

I was praying for the day that the Americans decided and said, "Jesus H Christ, what the **** are we allowing here to happen and for the rest of the world to watch as it is some kind of a soap opera". to my recollection, the war in former yugoslavia, (focus on bosnia mainly) started in april 1991, and it wasnt untill may 1995 when the NATO air strikes occured and by then it was too late.

It was estimated that by the end of 1994 at least 200,000 people had died and more than 2,000,000 had been driven from their homes (including me)

as for the taliban, they are indeed quite mad. full stop

adnans

DadaKopf

There's one question worth considering, though: are we, as Westerners, able to legitimately condemn the 'solutions' of Islamic extremists in the Middle East as well as the pacific rim?

Just as one example, Singapore has been led by one political party, the People's Action Party, since the city-state's birth and since then, they have led like a popularly elected oligarchy. The PAP is an authoritarian government who extensively interfere in people's lives daily (like banning chewing gum, banning of long lair and things like voluntary steralisation for the poorer members of society). Despite these measures, the Singaporeans have actively kept them in power for over 30 years because they genuinely like what they do - despite many criticisms from the West.

Is it really justifiable that Islamic extremism be condemned for being led by a bunch of 'mad Mullahs' who threaten inviolable civil liberties or should it be viewed that they have every right to return to the Qu'ran if they wish?

Surely it is the misinterpretation of the Qu'ran, the hypocrisy, actual physical abuse and Islamic Fundamentalism as an ideology being used as a method of ruthless oligarchy that should be questioned and/or condemned. Not the will of the people to find their own methods to solve their own problems?

[one thought: is Islamic Fundamentalism the modern day equivalent of Soviet 'perpetual revolution'?]

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"I collect spores, moulds and fungus."

Belisarius

I can tell you now ...Sadam hussein is a Malevolent Despot who rules his country in a manner contrary to the beliefs of Democratic nation but He isnt mad

The Idea that he is "mad" Is an Image forced upon the people of the western world by the combined powers of government to Justify thier purely Political/Economic reasons to come down on theese 2 bit backwater countries
I mean ...why did Desert storm start? ...Iraq invaded the traditional Iraqi provence of Kuwait , made a country due to National redrafts of the last century . Purely to protect the secure supply of crude Oil which the Kuwaitis offered the Western Alliance Demonised the Iraqi people and thier leader and began to assault Iraq with a level of technology and pure numbers that the Iraqis could not hope to defend against , at the expense of the Iraqi Civilian population
An Example
Mid 80s when Iran was the world bad-guy...who was the US's ally in the middle East? ...your friend and mine Sadam Hussein .

The US betrayed the Iraq which it had backed despite all its faults and Undemocratic "Ideosyncrises" Such policies can be seen worldwide ...Latin America in particular

*also A similar point can be made on behalf of Serbia but I cant be arsed*

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Time waits for No man ...except Bob MaClean the Sex Machine

Belisarius

Back to the Talheban

Bang on Dadakoph. Whatever we think of it we must respect theese Islamic peoples faith , however where Islam / Govermental fudge does confuse things , I also dont believe theylltake india up on the offer , theyve been backed into a corner on this and the statues are as good as gone.

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Time waits for No man ...except Bob MaClean the Sex Machine

neuro-praxis

I am not well enough informed on this issue to give my full view on the subject as it stands, but I must agree with those that say that we cannot simply dismiss the Islamic faith simply because it does not make sense to us Western Worlders. It deserves our respect.

Although, I *must* maintain that, despite having faith myself, I firmly believe that religion and politics should not mix. We have seen the consequences of this a few years back in our own country.

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Give me back my towel. I'll sue.

Celt

0_o
You go cat!) )

Belisarius

Well thats the thing isnt it ...
Islam is a far more... Pervasive religion than Lapse Catholocism and Christianity... It has a massive influence on peoples lives and in a deprived country like Afghanistan Its no wonder Religon fills the void of leadership which a weak government leaves open ...Oi that is Ireland in the past ! I take it all back

Clintons Cat

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by WhiteLancer:
0_o
You go cat!) )</font>

I really cant be bothered to turn up the heat on all the half truths,contradictions and bigotry in Bels posts,So i am just gonna chill out and rip the **** out of his arguements.
"Sadam was US Friend" Ho hum,"the Emirate of Kuwait an invention of colonial powers" tum tie tum,
"Afgans dont give a hoot about their pre islamic culture" hooboiy,"Milosovich is a misunderstood victim of US Agression" hum di ho."Islam never should have been a religon of the magnitude its reached" what???"Islam is a combination of several religion mixed in with some very practical Ideology which just happened to manifest into a very sound religion" Oh dear and Christianty has no foundations in Judaesim i suppose?
"The same is true of most religions (The Islamic conquests of the eary middle ages and its direct comparison the the Christian crusades eh ? eh?)"well your forgetting the Spanish Inquisition,The Conquest Of the Aztecs,incas,and Mayas,The Ligitimisation of the colonisation of North America and the attempts to forcibly re-educate aboriginee children in misionary schools but i will be magnaminous and let it pass."Colonel gadaffi is a Islamic fundamentalist *that is to say he believes fundamentaly in the idea of Islam rather than the dorogatory stigma of "rabble-rousery" "and the fact he espouses it contary to all evidence to the contary proves what an idealistic basket case he really is"the First world needs a Hate Figure"yes and his name is Bill Gates"Think Castro , The Iatollah , Sadam Hussein and Milosovich"ok i am thinking about them now what?Telheban isnt strictly a political organisation well apart from the fact it opperates in every way shape and form as a political organisation but heyYou cant really compare it to Nazi book burningyes i can and i did,well to be nitpickingly truthful i compared it to their destruction of Works of Art,sculptures and paintings the fact you have not researched into the motives behind it is not my problem,The last place youd find outcry about theese statues is Afghanistannot suprising as the afgans stiffle all political dissentTalheban is actually the Governmental extension of the Quoranno they are a political organisationMid 80s when Iran was the world bad-guy...who was the US's ally in the middle East? ...your friend and mine Sadam Hussein oh dear nice to see you know all about the UN arms embargoThe US betrayed the Iraqnice choice of wordsA similar point can be made on behalf of Serbia but I cant be arsedsuch a shame i would love to hear how it fits your anti islamic,anti US worldveiw,Whatever we think of it we must respect theese Islamic peoples faith,but not those islamic peoples faith that respects other peoples culture and heratige?
just a you give greater credence to the egyptians who call for the dismantling of their pre islamic heratige than those including the democratically elected government of Egypt which follows the muslim tradition of presavation of holy sites,faith and religions

What A Leftist Liberal Wet

Sorry like i said i really cant be bothered to turn up the heat.



[This message has been edited by Clintons Cat (edited 06-03-2001).]

Belisarius

Ohh Cat you Ignorant Cur
*expect a thrashing rebuttle In about an hour when I come back from CS*

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Time waits for No man ...except Bob MaClean the Sex Machine

Clintons Cat

oh i can hardly wait,
try to get your facts straight this time though.

where do you want to start? Milosevic,Sadamn,The Taleban?

More Fuel Baby,

Belisarius

Oh dearie me...this will be a long one

Ok I'll take each bit of this rather trite post in order


""Sadam was US Friend" Ho hum"

Misquote me why dont you ...and yes the US considered Iraq and ally in the middle east during the early/middle 80s due to Iraqs role in the Iran/Iraq war from 1980 to 1988 .However US's friendship soured quickly with the Invasion of Kuwait

CC said
""the Emirate of Kuwait an invention of colonial powers" tum tie tum,"

I *Bel* quote
". Kuwait was nominally a province of the Ottoman Empire, ruled from Constantinople. "

I never intented to state that Kuwait was ever a part of the Iraqi state...rather Historically a provence of Greater Iraq *under the otttomans* .

Replied to
"Afgans dont give a hoot about their pre islamic culture"
with:
hooboiy

Thats not what I said , did I ? . What I said is that the Afgans are an Islamic people and hold no reverance for theese statues which date back Centuries to Buddhist times

CC:
"Milosovich is a misunderstood victim of US Agression" hum di ho

Not what I said again. Milosovich got what was coming to him . But reguardless he was a victim picked out of from all the other , still untouched despots of the globe for world attention to fix upon .and the US Aggression was far from wholesome


CC:
"Islam never should have been a religon of the magnitude its reached" what???

Bel:
What do you mean what?...Most Islamic lands were only Islamic on account of the fact that they were subjigated by Arabian Warriors who stormed through much of Northern Africa/ Middle East / Central Aisia/ wherever during the early middle ages . not by any mass conversion to the faith , by which way most religions spread

CC:
Islam is a combination of several religion mixed in with some very practical Ideology which just happened to manifest into a very sound religion" Oh dear and Christianty has no foundations in Judaesim i suppose?

Bel: Well thats true ...kind of. The fact of the matter is I just wasnt referring to any other religion in that post
However the fact remains that Islam occured several centuries after Christianity , and even further beyond Judaeism. Christianity , while an equal novice in comparison to Zionism , is formed openly upon the Jewish people , *IE: The Isrealites being the chosen people . still im no priest and havent been to mass in a bit so we'll move on



CC:
"The same is true of most religions (The Islamic conquests of the eary middle ages and its direct comparison the the Christian crusades eh ? eh?)"well your forgetting the Spanish Inquisition,The Conquest Of the Aztecs,incas,and Mayas,The Ligitimisation of the colonisation of North America and the attempts to forcibly re-educate aboriginee children in misionary schools but i will be magnaminous and let it pass

Bel:
Hate to pull the rug from under the legs of such a levithian act of Charity but I hadnt forgotten , the argument was about Islam and the various blunders of the christian church isnt relevant


Again CC posted:
Colonel gadaffi is a Islamic fundamentalist *that is to say he believes fundamentaly in the idea of Islam rather than the dorogatory stigma of "rabble-rousery" "and the fact he espouses it contary to all evidence to the contary proves what an idealistic basket case he really is

Eh?...youve lost me ...but I from what i get youre taking the CNN perspective , Gadaffi was generally outed by the western world for his outspoken views on the US's pet in the middle east , Isreal . But mainly for his sponsorship of various Islamic Paramilitary groups * He also sent the Ira several arms shipments one of which was intercepted a while back*.Theese were responsible for a few bombings in the 80s ...evidence to the contrary would be most welcome

CC continued:
the First world needs a Hate Figure"yes and his name is Bill Gates

Bel: Halleluia brother!

CC:
"Think Castro , The Iatollah , Sadam Hussein and Milosovich"ok i am thinking about them now what?

Bel:
I meant them as references to former Hate figures ...cheeky!


CC:
"Telheban isnt strictly a political organisation" well apart from the fact it opperates in every way shape and form as a political organisation but hey

Well It isnt you silly man! The Talheban was originally a Terrorist force part of the Islamic coalition who fought the soviets in Aghanistan *See: Rambo 4 * They emerged as the dominant power in Afghanistan when the Soviets pulled out. This paramilitary organisation eventually took on the form of a Despotic government while maintaining concrete military and religous ties . This you see Cat , makes them not STRICTLY a Political organisation .

The naieve CC trudged on

"You cant really compare it to Nazi book burning" yes i can and i did,well to be nitpickingly truthful i compared it to their destruction of Works of Art,sculptures and paintings the fact you have not researched into the motives behind it is not my problem,

Well you can compare it ...but youd be wrong Book burnings in Nazi germany were Intended to suppress ideals contrary to National socialism , which a predomidantly Literate germany could get thier hands on . The reason the Buddist artefacts are being destroyed is because they ,under the writings of the quoran , mock the one true god *Allan er.. Allah* . The chances of a mass flocking of Afgans to buddhism are ....negligible


Lets press on


",The last place youd find outcry about theese statues is Afghanistan"not suprising as the afgans stiffle all political dissent


Well yes Political Dissent , the fact remains Afghanistan is totally Islamic. And theyre not too educated either...so theyre hardly chaining themselves to the statues like demented eco warriors proclaiming "This is a travesty to our heritage and an assault on our culture" hmmnnn?


"Talheban is actually the Governmental extension of the Quoran" no they are a political organisation

Well again I protest . The current manifesto of the Talheban is to achieve a "Pure Islamic state" , so apart from the counterargument put to you earlier about the Talhebans particulars , Im bang on


CC said
Mid 80s when Iran was the world bad-guy...who was the US's ally in the middle East? ...your friend and mine Sadam Hussein oh dear nice to see you know all about the UN arms embargo

Oh ! How old are you six? ... Id expected better
The Embargos were implemented in the early 90s after Desert storm!
sheesh , Your telling me to get my facts straight?


CC said
"The US betrayed the Iraq"nice choice of words

.... eh... Oh shut up!

CC continued :
"A similar point can be made on behalf of Serbia but I cant be arsed" such a shame i would love to hear how it fits your anti islamic,anti US worldveiw

Bel:
You know I could do it but again my **** is unwilling ,another thread perhaps..


CC went on to say:
"Whatever we think of it we must respect theese Islamic peoples faith",but not those islamic peoples faith that respects other peoples culture and heratige?

Bel:
Well yes Id agree with that point alright ... the only thing id say though Is that Buddhism has long since left afghanistan...The only people they disrespect are long since gone , Its concerning for the past generations of Buddhist Afgans but not really worth
an International incident

CC said
just a you give greater credence to the egyptians who call for the dismantling of their pre islamic heratige than those including the democratically elected government of Egypt which follows the muslim tradition of presavation of holy sites,faith and religions

Hmmn ..thats true... I might have fudged a bit here... What I meant *and really only Hypothicised* was that on some psychological level Islamic Egyptians were proabably offended by the premise that thier National Identity was dominated by the Ancient egyptian pagans while thier current Islamic heritage was overlooked in the eyes of the world ..long shot but proabably correct on some level


And so , with what CC thought was a final victory *far from* he finished on an Insult

" What A Leftist Liberal Wet "
Well yeah maybe ...but at least Im pretty


Burn baby burn

-Belisarius

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Time waits for No man ...except Bob MaClean the Sex Machine

DadaKopf

now, I'm a strong supporter of leaders, nations and countries who are targeted by the west. Though Saddam IS a despot and fits the psychological make up Nixon did, it may still be viewed that he is used by the west willingly or unwillingly and vice-versa. It's impossible to know how dangerous he really is because of the huge amound of media disinformation for and against, be it liberal or conservative rhetoric. The truth is that Iraq WAS one of the most advanced and developed middle-eastern countries until western intervention - women enjoyed equal status in the workplace, there was and is a separation of church and state and Iraq was well on its way to becoming a modern state with dominant middle-eastern social trends. nothing wrong with that, right? Since then, the west has contributed to 'impoving' global democracy by disrupting Iraq and the whole region economically - call is ideological globalisation.

The same is true for former Yugoslavia. That area has been messed around with by the Turks, the Italians, the Austrians and Greeks not to mention subject to decisive and damaging treaties by the European empires and all this has done is to destablise the region and cause problems. However, I can't support Belisarius when he says that he supports Milosevic as a victim of western interference.

Yugoslavia was damaged socio-economically by Tito, following his final constitution, then by his death; this left yugoslavia with a dislocated culture where people became poorer and poorer and genuine socio-economic divisions gave way to religious/national scapegoating. Yugoslavians returned to good old reliable altered history and religion to rally support one way or another. In the end, Milosevic [the dullest man on earth] saw these issues as a great method for him to sieze power, no matter what the cost. He didn't quell Serbian nationalism because he believes in it - he just wanted power. He is a classic megalomaniac, he's changed his ideas so many times he's hardly sure who he is other than he's a power freak. That's what he was and is dangerous: he turned to inciting hatred and racism and murder to fuel his political machine.

Sure the europeans and NATO used the opportunity to play around with the region some more and fuse developing relationships but the difference between iraq and yugoslavia is that the latter almost caused a large scale euopean conflict.

you can condemn milosevic but saddam and the persian region is different. Only localised conflict would happen [kirds, iran]. The question is oil, political sway and big business - why, since the embargo and sanctions were put in place, the french and brits have been moving in poising themslelves to open up a new market. it's all economics - they don't give a stuff about saving iraq from a crazy leader.

this is bloody long winded but all i'm saying is that you have to be more careful painting people and places with one brush - whether you're a pro-american, pro-West or anti-those. yada yada.

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"I collect spores, moulds and fungus."

Belisarius

Its like you Cut my head open and took bits of my brain , On the ball Koph

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Time waits for No man ...except Bob MaClean the Sex Machine

bugler

ye hijacked me post,ye big h00rs.
anyway,see the "i have to finish my daddy's war" post on this board for more of the same.
as for the biggest threat to the taliban(it wouldbe for the best for all if they were toppled)that would be from Afghans themselves.Civil war is still goin on,and the Taliban don't have the utter strangle hold on the country u might be led to believe.His biggest rivals the "Mujahadeen"(just nicked from all afghan fighters in the russian war)led by Commander Massoud,are still causing a ruckus. they had been forced back into holding about 10% of the country, but Massoud is a serious military tactician and as of 99/00 had gotten back around 40%.Forgive me if i'm wrong(its been way too long since I read in some depth about this,and my info is out of date),but apparently he had artillery within range of Kabul,but refused to use it becuase of the risk to civilian life(dubious?). Iran does supply him but not directly,as do India,this is just another stage in the region for India and Pakistan to exchange blows.Pakistan not only supply the Taliban but Pakistani special forces have directly fought in the conflict, and their air force has bombed Massoud's forces(apparently with civilian casualties,nothing surprising there). Well anyway,im not saying that Massoud would bring anymore stability(country is sure to be deadlocked for some time) or would be a kind and wise ruler,but surely his side gaining control over the country would be better than the Taliban.Lesser of two evils? maybe,butits a pity that none of the western countries don't really give a **** about afghanistan.....
Out of sight(and money interests) out of mind eh?

Clintons Cat

Good Topic though.

One thing the Taleban have managed to do by threatening the destruction of the Idols is to mobilise world opinion against themselves.Given Pakistans emnity to India the offer to resite these idols will probally be declined.This gives the Taleban two choices to go ahead and destroy the idols thus proving their fundamentalist credentials or accept UN mediation and preserve the statues as some kind of world heratige deal.
Bel i hate to argue with you but although budhism might no longer be practised within afganistan but it has adherents throughout the globe for whom the statues have a spiritual and cultural significance.The fact they hold no importance to modern Afgan culture is beside the point.
My point on the Nazis seems to be a little oblique so i will try to explain what i mean rather than just flame.In the thirties the Nazis destroyed not only jewish text on literature and science they also destroyed works of art that dealt with concepts of Pacifism,Humanism and Compassion.Such things were considered "Ungermanic".There is little place in the harsh world veiw of the taleban for compassion.Thus the idols which not only represent a very different spiritual perspective to islam but which are testement to a more compassionate type of islam that the taleban find an affront.It Challenges their devine right to rule Absolute.


oh and just in case you think i have gone soft
"The Embargos were implemented in the early 90s after Desert storm!
sheesh , Your telling me to get my facts straight?"
Yes.The Arms imbargo was implemented during the Iraq Iran War,Look up the Matrix Churchill Scandle and Irangate for evidence of shameful duplicity of the west on both sides of the conflict

I Am Nothing If Not Inconsistant

Belisarius

Ah yes The Mujahadeen . They were the stats of the Afgan war ...it suprised me originally that the Talheban ended up in control , but As you pointed out It may not bet for too long . as for the lesser of two evils . I couldnt imagine the Mujahadeen being much better.

As for you , CC *ya scamp*
True the Idols do have a relevance in Buddhism . But they do also has relevance to Islam in the sense that Quoran states they are "Graven Images" *not sure about that phrase * that is to say that they mock the one true allah . so while theyre destruction is abhorrent to the Buddhist world , theyre perisistence in afghanistanis also offensive ...The removal idea was a good one , but International focus now prevents . Unfortunate , It seems they will be destroyed.

As for the German Issue , Alright Ill give you that one , just wasnt very clear on yer stance

As for the embargos , your points on the US's interferance are bang on , however it doesnt amount to an embargo rather a ban on the Importation of weapons .The real sanctions *food Medicine machinery ect* this was more for International show than for any actual purpose . , Indeed the Duplicity was in reality almost totally intervention on the side of Iraq against Iran. This , in the world we know today is jokingly reffered to as "Peace Keeping"

-Bel

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Shrewgar!

Clintons Cat

i am glad i managed to explain the book burning analogy sorry if i got a little hot under the collar before

i ve been on the UN Website and even they are flaming the Afgans Quote from www.un.org

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The Director-General<Mr. Matsuura > took the occasion to report to participants about various initiatives being undertaken to "reverse this move into absurdity undertaken by the authorities in Kabul."
Last night, Mr. Matsuura convened an emergency meeting of Ambassadors from UNESCO's 54 Member States that belong to the Organization of the Islamic Conference. "Their voices unanimously came together in vigorous condemnation of these unacceptable attacks on humanity's common heritage," the Director-General said today. "Like me, they feel helpless but are equally determined to join me in taking concrete action."</font>

Strong Stuff Indeed.

Excelsior

i just particuarly like the lunacy of this quote from Belisarius
"Islam is a far more... Pervasive religion than... Christianity... "

even a Christian like myself has to wonder.
do you mean that islam is presuasive in the live's of its followers in a way Christianity can not be. and that this leads to the violent acts of islamic fundamentalism, terrorism or "politics" in the form represented by the taliban?

because if that is what you mean, i unfortunately have to inform you that some Christians are rather violent too. and can blow up abortion clinics sometimes. and can be politically right wing beyond all decency.


if you mean that it is persuasive in the lives of its faithful, in the amount of devotion it generates and the power of the faithful's convictions, then i disagree again.
you may not know any, but your own city is filled with people who are living as dedicated a Christian life as they can.

i just need clarification on this. the trendiness of the comment quoted seems to mirror the contridictions of many of your other trendy comments.