Web Brusqueness (or Web Primitivity)

azezil

its very easy hide behind a computer screen, i'll admit i abuse ppl now n agian online, but i'm not serious when i'm typin it i'm laughing away to myself!

i wouldn't take it seriously if i were u! alot of ppl mean nothing by it, but there are always jerks who just go to chat rooms to pick a fight! n others who are just plain ignorant! i'm sure u'll get a few abuseive replys to this post...anything that shows imotion online if usually abused!

but there are also some places which won't stand for abuseive ppl online e.g. irish chat!, the ppl in there are great, if some one has a problem the ppl are real considerate (well the regulars ne way)

kayos

neuro I'm sorry you think thaty most of the ppl on these boards are obnoxious. I've been floating around these boards for near 2 years now (you wouldn't think it from the low post count but its true). I've never really found that I got to much hassle off anyone. I'll admit there is some ppl not many that will have ago at newbie's or even well established ppl for no good reason at all one example was a couple of months back I posted a question about some modem trouble in Windows ME and I was told to learn how to use a PC by some person, I took offence to this since I am a programmer and have more exp with PC's a lot of ppl on these boards. This kinda got nasty IMHO but to be honest I couldn't give a fup.

It has to be remembered some ppl have no manners online and some ppl can hit below the belt (with or with knowing that they are doing it) but to be honest you will get that every where you go in life. Not everybody knows your background what has or hasn't happened in your life and therefore can hit a nerve without knowing they have done so. This has happened me numerous occasions in different places be it the pub, the office, college, school. It hurts but you got to forget about it.

Yes some of the things said to you in the drugs tread were not nice. But if you want to stop those kinda posts you have to back up your case. Dont back down and let them do that. You have a right to post on these boards and expess you option. This drugs tread was locked on the after hours board and I think that should be done on the humanities board as well. Why is a topic allowed on one board and not another. I think a topic like that is bound to start some form of trouble in some many ways. And ppl having a go at other ppl in a personal way is just one of them.

I do think some ppl have to grow up when it comes to manners and common sense. Its not nice to be bullied and this is what is happening here. Everyone hates a bully and a bully is always the most insecure person in a class. Can some ppl please grow up.

As for the argument int he drugs topic that "you never did them you can not talk about them" cop on lads. I've never had an abortion but I have a view on the topic. But at the same time I will never try to force my options on others. As long as ppl respect my choice (by this I do not mean agree with me).

As I said at the top of this post I've been around for two yearts and this is easly the longest post I have ever written and would probally be longer than all my prevoius posts put together but I hate seeing this sort of ****. Please can we all just get along and lads whoever had a go a neuro cop on and say sorry.

kayos

neuro-praxis

Thank you two very much for the honest responses.

bugler

it comes down to this: the laws of social graces dont yet apply online,and probably never will.not having to look the other person in the eye can do strange things to a person.you can just click a button and that person is removed from sight,very easily.

Excelsior

actually, as the person doing the experiments, it is because people are inherently obnoxious.
they enjoy letting go and indulging in it every now and again.
any young person who has worked in a city center shop will have suffered the same phenomenon at the hands of a disgruntled mother.
the anonymity of the obnxious individual is not the influencing factor. rahter it is the anonymity of the victim. when in your red dixons t-shirt, or your green penny's skirt, you are faceless and threatless. one feels no guilt because you are de-personified.

online no one will ever have to face their victim, will never feel a pang of guilt, need never fear humilation at their hands in the future, and so they can attack at whim.

just my 7389725098175 roubles.

TwoShedsJackson

Excelsior has put it quite perfectly. People are ignorant on line because they can be, with little fear of any consequences.

Now, having said that, if people go too far e.g. serious death threats, physical harm, stalking et al, they do have to face it, assuming charges are brought.

A book I read in work 'Psychology and the Internet' by Gackenbach (0122719506), along with 'Stalkers & Their Victims' by Mullen (0521669502) are two extremely interesting books for anyone who may wish to read more in this area.

I can be obnoxious and ignorant on the internet, and frequently have been, although anyone who has met me will tell you I can be obnoxious in person too

Paladin

Right Neuro, I had completely forgotten I had typed that sentence in the drugs thread that mentioned something about *ahem* farting
For the record I DO apologise for that. Its not something that would be stereotypical of me. It was a spur of the moment in a p'ed off mood because of an unrelated topic that I typed before I thought (yes that sounds kinda stupid but I guess it IS possible), and I was getting annoyed with the circular nature of the argument.

In saying that, although I understand and to a certain extent agree with your sentiments in the thread, your arguments were completely wrong. But as for topic in question..

I cant say that Ive ever been abused on these boards, nor have most people really. If they are it is a minority.

As to Kayos quote:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">As for the argument int he drugs topic that "you never did them you can not talk about them" cop on lads. I've never had an abortion but I have a view on the topic.</font>

That is hardly abuse. A flawed argument yes, but abuse? Surely not.

I did say what was undoubtadly an insulting line, but also, hardly abuse.

Generally you dont become abused by the majority unless you pi$s people off by saying unreasonable/offensive things. There are some who abuse regardless. This is true in life also.

Chat rooms, people go on to mess, mostly teenagers. Go into a room in real life and ask a bunch of teenagers for help and see if you dont get abuse/slagging from some.

And yes, people do abuse a lot more from the safety of their PC's. Im just saying that its not like it isnt in real life too. And at least behind the pc its only a few typed words by people you dont know.

neuro-praxis

I don't want or need an apology for using the word "fart" when addressing me - I am not some simpering delicate creature whose ears could not withstand it.

I am talking here about the *reasons* for people's obnoxiousness online, Paladin. To quote you from above,

"In the thread, your aruments were completely wrong."

You are such an infuriating person, Paladin. No, my arguments were not "completely wrong" - they simply opposed yours. Does disagreeing with Paladin equal completely wrong?

This thread is *not* going to turn into a flaming match, otherwise I will just delete it. I want to know *why* people are consistently nasty online (not your opinion, Paladin, of my views on taking illegal substances), and I appreciate all the replies thus far.

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Give me back my towel. I'll sue.

logic1

**** off.

.logic.

Paladin

Not that you would actually know what I am like.

Just as a general rule Neuro, when talking about an opinionated topic and someone says what they think, you can mentally put an "in my opinion." quote before it.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">No, my arguments were not "completely wrong" - they simply opposed yours. Does disagreeing with Paladin equal completely wrong?</font>

Absolutely to me it does.
For everyone else it depends if they think what I say is right or wrong, not because I say it.
In *your* opinion I was completely wrong.
*In my opinion* you were completely wrong.
(do you not realise that what you are saying applies to you? Am I wrong because you say so?)

That is to say the points you used as evidence. What you said was fine. You backed it up horribly badly *in my opinion*.

Yes drugs are unhealthy. The medical evidence you used was wrong.
Yes drugs are illegal. Saying they are immoral because they are illegal, (let he who has not sinned *broken a law* cast the first stone *hypocritical* imho) I do not agree with. etc.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Does disagreeing with Paladin equal completely wrong?</font>

It depends if in their opinion I am right or wrong doesnt it. Not because I said it, but because they thought *what* I said was right or wrong.


I was wrong to have used that whole sentence with the word fart (not just the word on its own) regardless of whether you choose to be defensive and see it as condescending to your "simpering delicate" or not. It was not intended as such, I need not have stooped to the "lazy" argument as Excelsior put it.

Ill point out that my previous post was almost entirely on topic. Your reply to it was not completely on topic and sparked this (just defending my off topic response as I recently feel the need to cover my ass with everything I say).
Anyone else can just ignore this and comment on topic, so that the thread isnt completely ruined by an external debate (soz).

neuro-praxis

Again you are on and on about my views in the other thread. Get over it, man. I am not dealing with this anymore! Quit attempting to entice me back into it.

You still infuriate me!

Paladin

Heh. *Run Forest*

[On Topic]
Ive realised why people are more abusive on the internet.

Its mostly men.
The reason?
Sex.

In real life people have to act nice if they want any (admit it guys, thats why we are nicer to women than men). On the internet it doesnt matter.

[sarcasm]Does anyone dare disagree with the great Paladin (cause that = wrong )[/sarcasm]

[/On Topic]

neuro-praxis

Okay, that's better.

So are you saying, that guys are not actually nice people - that they are only nice when women are around?

I think that's rather sexist, although I must admit I have never been around a man when I was not there.

Paladin

Well, back in the good aul days (Cro Magnon man) all we had to do was kill stuff, eat it, and *ahem* copulate, which required no tact whatsoever.

We have improved a lot so count your blessings

neuro-praxis

Women on women's boards prove themselves completely capable of being b1tchy and obnoxious too, so I think your male only theory is redundant, Paladin. Although, I would admit, that ratio to ratio (judging by the amount of women on chicklick compared to the number of men on theses boards), there are more obnoxious men online than women, but that is unresearched in an official sense.

Think universal.

Paladin

Hehe, but you see, its not flawed (well it is a bit cause its very general) because women dont have to be nice to other women either:P (unless they, are shall we say, pink).
Especially on the internet. Hell women like sex too. They act nicer in real life to get some *almost* as much as men.

Sometimes the desire to F* women is the only thing that keeps complete diks some bit in line when they are in public (there is a pun there on re-reading it, but I wont edit that ). Same with women I *presume*.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Will have to agree to differ on that one Paladin. I think self preservation is a large factor in keeping complete diks in line. Only speaking from my experience, but if there was a situation where a guy was giving a girl hassle and kept it up after warnings he would get hammered, and thats all there is to it. That cannot happen here, I know people can get kicked from the boards and sites where they are being abusive but it doesn't have the same finallity as a kickin

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You never expect the Beefy Inquisition !!!

Steven

And the award for the most cynical post ever goes to....

Winning Hand

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by neuro-praxis:

Oh and to the ignorant person who suggested that my boyfriend is guilty of statutory rape, I am 18 years old

</font>

Yes I am that ignorant person. Although to say im ignorant implies I'm uninformed, actually its closer to misinformed
I made an assumption based on the following facts i picked up from your persona on the boards
1.You mentioned your boyfriend is almost 20
2.You had a big part to say on the topic of underage drinking
3.You talked about school alot (in the present tense)
4.You said in the unmentionable topic that you debate alot, where i went to school and most other schools i know only allowed debating for fourth years, average age of pupils in fourth year is 15.

Anyway i never said he was doing it, matter of fact I put it in bold type that he may be doing such.

I do apologise for any offence I caused but if you read my reasons youll see that it wasnt an "ignorant" thought.

Anyway enough of that, time to get back on topic.
Yes neuro you are right. Some People do turn into w@nkers when theres a certain sense of anynominity, maybe its human nature. But you may also be reading stuff into it (ill try to explain )
I play CS on a US server, ive been doing so for 6 months now so i do know out of 23 players 10 at any time. Now one of these players is exceptionally skilled so whenever he kills me at the respawn he gets the obligatory "you cheating bastid" and other profanities. He knows im only messing, as do all the other regulars, where i have a good banter with most nights I play, but I do see how to a person who has never seen us play might think were an aweful evil bunch of ppl. So when you see certain flames dont assume their nasty as such.

That attempt at explaining wasnt too good but I hope some of you got the point I was trying to make.

neuro-praxis

What is it exactly about the internet that causes people to behave like utter a$$h0les online? It is something that I am sometimes guilty of too, and I hate to admit that. People type things on these boards, and on all boards, and in chatrooms, that they would never dream of allowing out of themselves in real life. Or maybe I just have nice friends.

Why are so many of you obnoxious on these boards? Is it because you are nasty and obnoxious in real life, too? Or is it something about the anonymity of these places that allows a real (or utterly false??) despicable person to come out?

Not everybody is guilty of this, just a whole lot.

(*Oh, and in defense of myself on the drugs thread, I backed away because a debate is not one person against 30 other people, that is called a tirade. I have left it once and for all because of the frequent and deliberate misinterpretations of my words, and personal insults. Why can't people keep personal insults out of arguments? And just stop themselves from saying "fu<k off"? I am not going back to justify myself because I don't need to. I am able to answer any questions that were put to me...but I have chosen to stop in there because I can't handle being attacked so vigorously by such a crowd of tunnel visioned people who will pull each post apart before considering it. Oh and to the ignorant person who suggested that my boyfriend is guilty of statutory rape, I am 18 years old.*)

So basically, the nastiness of people online encourages me to move away from interesting topics and healthy debate.

My friend did an experiment in some chatrooms, to see how people would respond. He went in pretending to be completely clueless about the workings of a PC and the internet, claiming that his sister had set it all up for him. He was completely polite and serious, and asked for advice on using the net and even turning off the PC, and the absolute abuse he got was unbelievable.

Why does the net bring out the worst in people? It is such a shame, because it is the most amazing communication tool. Give me some views on this, puh-lease (preferably not filled with abuse directed at me).

Signed,
an interested Neuro.

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Give me back my towel. I'll sue.

Kegser

I have but one point to make.

Being an idiot online tends to have little or no consequences online.

The fact there are so many chatrooms, IRC Servers, Game Servers and the likes means that if you are so inclined you could cause havoc.... without any real consequences.

For example; I'm playing CS and some silly person starts to hurl abuse at me for whatever reason. There's nothing much I can do apart from ignore him or return the favour. I do enjoy a good slagging match now and again He whines, moans, *****es and abuses and then goes on his merry way. I never see him again.

Whereas in real life; Some silly person walks up to me in the pub and starts hurling abuse at me for no apparant reason. I break my pint glass in his face, grab his testicles and squeeze quite hard, and maybe stab him in the eye with a dart.

In the Online Scenario; the little tosser logs off CounterStrike and loads up his favourite porno page for a night of furious ****ing.

In the Real Life Scenario; the little tosser spends two nights in Accident & Emergency and loses the sight in one eye.

I hope that made sense, but it's late and I'm tired.

azezil

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kegser:

Whereas in real life; Some silly person walks up to me in the pub and starts hurling abuse at me for no apparant reason. I break my pint glass in his face, grab his testicles and squeeze quite hard, and maybe stab him in the eye with a dart.


</font>

good god never want to meet u!!!
LOL

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"just because ur not paraniod, doesn't mean they're not after u!"

neuro-praxis

Last night was a real example of web primitivity - I went to #fortress.ie. (Should I be surprised??) Now some people were cool in the extreme - Kegser, Crash0r, Mills, Richindub, Alexa, Bugler...and more.

But some people were outstandingly horrible, and the main award for this goes to logic. He booted me about eight times until my pc crashed.

Okay, I can take slagging happily. You would find it tough in Irish society if you could not. It's the source of Irish humour. Why take it that step further online into the territory of being a complete and utter s hit?

So Logic (and I feel the need to point out that your previous contribution to this thread was hilarious and witty in excelsius), why are you so nasty online?

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Give me back my towel. I'll sue.

Paladin

[norelevence]
*cough*penisenvy*cough*
[/norelevence]


Avoiding a kickin is definately a big factor in behaving in real life and being able to misbehave on net.

And jesus Kegser!
You're be a dangerous bastid arent ye!!

logic1

I can call people names!!!!! Nah nah nah nah nah!!!

[This message has been edited by Castor Troy (edited 12-03-2001).]

Clintons Cat

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Being an idiot online tends to have little or no consequences online. </font>

heh,

bugler

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by azezil:
good god never want to meet u!!!
</font>

Damn right.He claims not to wear any pants.
Neuro,you should see what richindub2 has to put up with .dont let it get you down.

neuro-praxis

Don't be mistaken, Bugler, this kind of thing doesn't get me down. It just makes me analytical, really. I am just attempting to find out the reasons for this puzzling behaviour. I mean, it's not funny, so why do they bother? Surely things are more comfortable when there's common civility??

*shrugs*

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Give me back my towel. I'll sue.

Blitzkrieger

I think that Excelsior hit the nail on the head - it's easy to be a ******* when you're faceless and there's no consequences.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Winning Hand:
(ill try to explain )
I play CS on a US server, ive been doing so for 6 months now so i do know out of 23 players 10 at any time. Now one of these players is exceptionally skilled so whenever he kills me at the respawn he gets the obligatory "you cheating bastid" and other profanities. He knows im only messing, as do all the other regulars, where i have a good banter with most nights I play, but I do see how to a person who has never seen us play might think were an aweful evil bunch of ppl.</font>

I tend to do that a lot. You might have heard my frequent calls of "B4STARD EMPS" or "fat b4sterd in a red suit" while playing tfc. It's something I do in real life and it's hard not to carry it over to the net. It's just something we (my friends and I) do and most of the time it's funny but I suppose to an outsider it'd probably look like we hate each other Especially when Massimo Noonan is in goal

I was going to post more but it's time for class

Shinji

Rule of thumb: Don't say anything to anyone online that you wouldn't say to them offline.

This doesn't mean "be polite to everyone". It just means "think about what you say on IRC/boards/email, same as you would when talking to someone in real life".

darthmise

Here, Here.

logic1

Castor I would like to know exactly why you've edited a perfectly reasonable post of mine. It didn't contain any swear words, it didn't abuse or insult anyone it didn't have any offensive content. It was something along the lines of:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">It's simple really. I don't like people.</font>

I want to know why this was edited and I will be contacting Regi or Dev for an explanation.

.logic.

C B

Castor, Excelsior,

I don't believe that it has much to do with the anonimity of the net but rather with the fact that people are forced to deal with a broader set of perspectives than they normally would. Of course there are a$$holes on the net, but the topic was why do normally nice people get involved in flame wars when dealing with serious topics. This arose from the thread on drugs. the essential problem in that thread was that people were "forced"/ felt obliged to debate the issue with neuro something which woulkd never have happen in real life/ polite society. In polite society we generally chose to avoid discussing such contentious issues with those we don't know or like, i.e. many people in the thread would never come in contact with somebody like neuro in their everyday lives. If they did they certainly would not end up discussing the merits of drug use/ politics/ religion. This unexpected clash of idealogies and perspectives is the root cause of flame wars.

TwoShedsJackson

You insulted Nuero twice in the post and generally looked like a childish moron. Plus the original text said nothing like what you have there.

Feel free to contact Regi or Dev.

Son of Blam

I've always thought it was really funny how most people who act abusive online aren't so abusive off-line.

The first experience I had of this was in college where there was a student unix server that all the cool sexy people like me logged into.

There were some "abusive people" who posted to message boards who turned out to be alright normal, if a little boring, people in real life.

Maybe people are abusive to make up for their lack of Blam wit(tm)?

-Son of Blam

logic1

What did I say in the post then castor?
Feel free to e-mail me with it.
If I'm wrong I'll admit it and apologise but I'm *nearly* sure I'm not.

.logic.

[This message has been edited by logic1 (edited 13-03-2001).]

Canaboid

1. Annonymity
2. Immaturity
3. Mis-understanding (humour etc.)

A short note on point 3. When people use sarcasm/percieved humour in real life, there are visual cues to alert the potential offendee. Online it's very easy to get the wrong end of the stick. Hence these yokes -> which aren't really up to the job.

Clintons Cat

i agree with canaboid on this.i was gonna post something similar but i realised John Cleese had beaten me to the punch on sunday night bbc2.
damn john cleese,Funny,Smart,Rich why couldnt he give me my moment of web glory...?

Lucy_la_morte

I get abused online almost as much as I do offline.

To be quite honest, online is sort of some kind of sanctuary I can come to and feel safe from harm. Most people actually want to talk, occasionally you get the jerk who will come up with some abuse comments or something along those lines, but most people are friendly.

I think this is because most the people who chat online are actually looking for friends or just people to talk to and hoping for the same treatment back. If anyone goes out of their way to send abuse to someone, then they must be a horrible person to bother. To give someone a nasty comment before even talking to them on a personal level, must have something really wrong with them.

As for receiving abuse offline, I have no reasoning why people may do this. Perhaps it is because I am small and skinny or the fact I tend to dress differently and look a little mad. Who ever could guess.

(Oh by the way Neuro, thanks for saying I was cool in IRC, even though I must of spent about 5 minutes actually in #fortress.ie)

---

J'ai dormi sous l'eau.

Lucy la morte. (aka Alexa and a million other aliases)

[This message has been edited by Lucy_la_morte (edited 13-03-2001).]

Clintons Cat

Nuero it may help to try to think of online arguements as a glorified pie fight.You might end up covered in pie at the end but so will everyone else,it is up to those who read the thread to determine who threw the most accurate pies and whose pies widely missed the mark.Sure you might look a little bit silly at times when your covered in pie but you can always brush yourself off with no harm done where it really matters.
I hope this helps because i feel you are taking this hard.

if anyone needs me to explain my zen philosophy of piefighting further,hopefully before john cleese nicks it i will be happy to oblige.

Paladin

Monty Python Live at the Holywood Bowl - Im afraid John Cleese already DID take your pie idea

Trojan

Yeah, it's the whole anonymous thing...

When people thing that there will be no consequences for their actions they are a lot more lax in manners.

Never mind online, take people on holidays, or e.g. New Yorkers - in a city of 10,000,000 people you're never going to meet someone you meet in the street again (*), so why make the effort of manners? (and nope, I don't condone this.)

Of course, then there's the odd occasions when someone says something online and has it come back to haunt them... anyone remember Croke Park? (**)


(*) Unless they're Irish... "Jaysuz, tis a small world, isn't it lads?"

(**) In-joke, a certain individual suddenly realised that calling someone with a short-fuse a "complete ****head" was not a good idea...

darthmise

I'd have to disagree with C.B. on that one.

True the internet does bring you into contact with people of all sorts that you might not normally meet but because people don't have a face on the internet they feel a bit more loose tongued with what they would say.

Drugs and all that go with it can be a perfectly valid and civilised topic of dicussion as long as it's not: 'Man, I got soo wasted last night!'

Conversations with like minded people are not as stimulating as when peoples opinions clash.

Clintons Cat

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Paladin:
Monty Python Live at the Holywood Bowl - Im afraid John Cleese already DID take your pie idea </font>

bah,
*wipes pie from face*
best not tell you bout the meaning of life then...

Paladin

hehe