Its a coinflip, a Classic Holdem Situation....

DeVore

How many times do you hear that every night.... Any pair against any over cards is described as a coinflip. Must be funny coins some people are using because there is quite a bit of variance in the odds.

Here are some interesting examples I chose to

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=66270
pokenum  -h ah kh  - 2d 2h 
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards     win   %win    lose  %lose    tie  %tie     EV
Ah Kh  845329  49.37  855521  49.96  11454  0.67  0.497
2d 2h  855521  49.96  845329  49.37  11454  0.67  0.503

Above is the classic, AK suited versus 22. This is almost exactly 50/50 as you can see.

However, lets make those 2's into jacks, make the AK not suited and remove the suit clash between the hands.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=7244
pokenum  -h ac ks  - jd jh 
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards     win   %win    lose  %lose   tie  %tie     EV
Ks Ac  729149  42.58  977567  57.09  5588  0.33  0.427
Jd Jh  977567  57.09  729149  42.58  5588  0.33  0.573

57% against 42.5% thats a pretty big margin. 15% difference.

In contrast, an overpair against an underpair varies by only 3% (78ish to about 81%) depending on suits and straight-blocking.

So there you go now

DeV.

Hitman Actual

DeVore wrote:

Above is the classic, AK suited versus 22. This is almost exactly 50/50 as you can see.

DeV.

Something I've just noticed is that if you change the 2h to 2d, the AKs is actually a slight favourite: 50.08% v 49.92%. OK, so it's only marginal, but I thought a pair was never behind overcards.

henbane

lenny_leonard wrote:

Something I've just noticed is that if you change the 2h to 2d, the AKs is actually a slight favourite: 50.08% v 49.92%. OK, so it's only marginal, but I thought a pair was never behind overcards.

Wouldn't that involve having suited twos?

DeVore

He said it wrong but he is correct:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=14292
pokenum  -h ah kh  - 2d 2c 
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards     win   %win    lose  %lose    tie  %tie     EV
Ah Kh  852207  49.77  849322  49.60  10775  0.63  0.501
2c 2d  849322  49.60  852207  49.77  10775  0.63  0.499

AKh slightly ahead....

DeV.

dirkey_wynne

Use the Hendon mob website for your AKs against 22 and you get 50.29% v 49.70% in favour of the deuces.

Hitman Actual

Yeah, thats what I meant, I rarely use a deck with suited pairs

Hitman Actual

dirkey_wynne wrote:

Use the Hendon mob website for your AKs against 22 and you get 50.29% v 49.70% in favour of the deuces.

Interesting... I always use the Poker Calculator written by Janne Raevaara, and the figures are very similar to twodimes.net. Also, the Poker Calculator performs Monte Carlo and Combinatorics calculations, which both gave the AKs ahead.

Hectorjelly

Some suited connectors are ahead of some pairs.

brianon

Hectorjelly wrote:

Some suited connectors are ahead of some pairs.

Result
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=674015
pokenum -h 7h 6h - 2d 2c
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7h 6h 891821 52.08 774031 45.20 46452 2.71 0.534
2c 2d 774031 45.20 891821 52.08 46452 2.71 0.466

Hitman Actual

brianon wrote:

Result
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=674015
pokenum -h 7h 6h - 2d 2c
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7h 6h 891821 52.08 774031 45.20 46452 2.71 0.534
2c 2d 774031 45.20 891821 52.08 46452 2.71 0.466

Two years playing and I never noticed this... embarrassing to say the least.

DeVore

Thats what makes JTs such a strong hand, although I hate calling raises with it, and generally dont!

DeV.

Hectorjelly

DeVore wrote:

Thats what makes JTs such a strong hand, although I hate calling raises with it, and generally dont!

DeV.

Why call a raise with JTs when a KJo is just around the corner!

DeVore

Hectorjelly wrote:

Why call a raise with JTs when a KJo is just around the corner!

You can start a club with Oscar about hands you feel I shouldnt have been in. Personally I felt your two pair was a little over played... perhaps, like Oscar you should have dropped them... hey... theres a thread about dropping 2 pair ....

DeV.

Hectorjelly

DeVore wrote:

You can start a club with Oscar about hands you feel I shouldnt have been in. Personally I felt your two pair was a little over played... perhaps, like Oscar you should have dropped them... hey... theres a thread about dropping 2 pair ....

DeV.

I dont think it was raised preflop was it? I had 10Q which is worse than KJ, no complaints about that hand from me! (Except general I should win every hand mutterings).

DeVore

Hectorjelly wrote:

I dont think it was raised preflop was it? I had 10Q which is worse than KJ, no complaints about that hand from me! (Except general I should win every hand mutterings).

lol... yeah you had QT now that I remember it. I'm kinda sick for KJ but its been good to me...

DeV.