How to mess up your kid for life.

Hobbes

http://www.msnbc.com/news/459052.asp?cp1=1#BODY

Cake Fiend

That's pathetic. I honestly feel sorry for whoever read that, whether they're confused by all the freaky sh1t that's going on in (I gather) the US, or they're just stupid. I can certainly understand how a parent would be concerned about the violent influences acting on young children in today's society, but that really is taking it too far. What's next, Barney is deemed too intimidating for kids? Watching The Simpons will make a child 50% more likely to shoot his own parents before the age of 18?

Vincent

I feel sorry for little austin with a such a bítch for a mother

pat kenny

My son was given a castle with figures holding weapons that looked straight out of the bloody film ‘Braveheart.’ How did the toy designers envision children playing with it?

http://www.fisherprice.com/us/img/product_shots/77198_b_1.jpg

Yes just look how realistic them weapons look.

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[This message has been edited by pat kenny (edited 15-10-2000).]

Mills

She took the video “The Lion King” away from her younger son, Connor, after he kept acting out the role of the villain Scar at preschool. “It’s one of those adult movies made for kids,” she said. And she’s limited his play dates with another boy after she found them watching a movie for older kids.

I must have missed something when i saw it but the Lion king didnt strike me as being an adult movie.

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I am inflatible !

Greenbean

Didn't you see the ranchy sex scene with the gorilla and the zebra... no? ..

The thing is thats just one messed up attitude to life. For thousands of years children have been using toys to learn about the real world and parents have been giving them to them. Yes toy guns can be translated into a death wish, if you are a physco or you can realise that its a very natural thing to be competitive and just have imaginary games of cops&robbers, pokemon and batman etc etc etc. Its just the development of the imagination - symbolic for learning life skills about coordination and an in-built natural response to learn to fight. It doesn't mean you are going to be a killer. It just means you are responding to what your genes tell you, you've got to learn about. Look at puppies, they play when together - they are actually learning how to fight; doesn't make them killers.

The poor kid in this story is all hyper because the mother is hyper. Its a well known fact that children look to their mother to figure out what is bad and dangerous in the world - so if the mother show anxiety about something the child imitates it and picks it up. Its not a product of marketing bad-boys which make "Austin can't handle villains or any tense moments at all." - its the mothers sharp intake of righteous breath when she sees something that this CORUPT AND TERRIBLE WORLD IS DOING TO HER POOR LITTLE AUSTIN. WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!

TwoShedsJackson

Yet some marketing whiz wants to put this toy into the hands of my 3-year-old, the little guy who found the video “Elmo in Grouchland” too intense to watch.

With school shootings almost routinely in the news, I have to say that as a nation we’ve gone a little nuts. I still have to take a few deep breaths every time I think of Kip Kinkel, the Oregon teen who shot up his school after killing his dad and blowing away his mother when she walked in with the groceries.

lol, Elmo in Grounchland too intense?? I think some parents take protecting their children too far.

As for Kip Kinkel, who the hell wouldn't go postal with a name like that??


[This message has been edited by Castor Troy (edited 15-10-2000).]

pepperkin

Ok, so I'm a parent and can understand SOME of this womans...err...editorial?
I remember when I was a kid my parents took me to see Sleeping Beauty. I had bad dreams about the queen-turned-dragon for days. And I know a lot of kids who got bad dreams from Ursula, in The Little Mermaid. (which can be pretty scary.)
However this has not damaged me...I don't harbor a fear of dragons, in fact I love dragons, and the kids still watch the movie, NOW they have learned it's all pretend!
I knew a guy who allowed his kids to watch Fright Night and Halloween and Friday the 13th movies in order to "teach them the difference between reality and fantasy." Thats what Disney is for, imoho. What this family ended up with was a 3 yr old boy who thought knives were playtoys, (Damn near stabbed his mother in the stomach, if she hadn't acted fast he would have, and who bit a huge chunk out of his sisters lower stomach and grinned while he chewed the chunk. (This is NOT made up!)
*shudders at the image of a 3 yr old grinning as blood runs down his chin and he chews a hunk of his sister...*
The point of my tale is that everything can be overdone. I personally censor everything my kids watch, I take care what they read, (video games, too.) and I see what input their little minds are processing. That doesn't mean I Overshelter them, that means I am being careful.
I think the gov't should not have the ability to censor things outright. (Take a look at the lists of books banned from US public and school libraries sometime.) In my mind it is the PARENTS job to censor their kids activities, NOT the societies, and more parents need to wake up and quit relying on everyone else to mind their kids.
I don't let my kids play with guns. Not toy guns, not water pistols that look like guns, none of the above. Not because I think that will make them killers when they get older, but because so many toy guns look real! And if they run across a real gun at 5 yrs old, I don't want them to think "Hey this looks like my toy, lets play with it!" I make it very clear that guns are a nono, no matter what! (By the same token, when they get older, 10-12, if I am still living in this %&(*&%(&^ country, I have already told their daddy he is to take them out and teach them how to handle, shoot, and most of all, RESPECT a firearm. Knowledge is the only way to make it not fascinating to them.)
Course, I also don't let me kids watch Power Rangers, Pokemon, or many other cartoons, either. Power Rangers being live action inspires WAY too many kids to start kicking each other in the head, Pokemon...well, it's just stupid and the plot is cheesy, and Barney and Teletubbies are OUT on matters of principle.
They have a rich and varied TV life aside from that however, on the rare occasions we watch TV...we're usually outside.
So I guess what I am saying here is don't condemn the writer of that article for her views on her kids, because she has the right IDEA...she's just taking it WAY over the top, and overdoing the protection bit.

Paladin

Perhaps kids like to watch Pokémon simply for entertainment, and dont really need to learn a lesson from it?
Anyway, lies damned lies and statistics.
To an extent.
Kids will see violence. Thats inevitable.
Just so long as they are very clear that its wrong, they probably wont be inspired to be a psycho.

As for the kid watching Friday 13th etc?
Ahh. I doubt there is much point blaming the TV. He is just a fúcked up little freak, and its the parents fault. If a normal kid watched such movies, they wouldnt resort to that violence. They would just be scared.
Thats why that kid musta been fuked up.

And face it...
there will always be weirdos, fuk-up, assh0les. psychos etc.
Always.

Mills

Have you ever actually sat and watched an episode of pokemon with an open mind? It actually contains a lot of good morals and such, I don't know if kids pick up on these or not as they're quite well hidden, IMO a better way of teaching things to young children than something like Barney.

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I am inflatible !

Paladin

Ya Ive watched Pokémon (sssssshhhhh - beware of the voices).
*ahem*
Only the see what is was about.
Honest!
well...
no not honestly
heehee

Hobbes

Speaking of hidden Morals...
http://salon.com/news/feature/2000/01/13/drugs/index.html http://salon.com/news/feature/2000/01/13/smart_guy/index.html http://salon.com/news/feature/2000/01/14/payola/index.html

For those of you who don't like to read

The stories are old, and basically tell of how the US goverment influence what is shown on TV, going so far to have scripts re-written (even Buffy!)

pepperkin

Pokemon isn't a violent, horrid kids show. It just annoyed the hell out of me! But you have to know that I'm NOT a tv person as it is...I'm a book person. The TV goes on very rarely here so when it does, I try and make it something not too terribly annoying. My kids for all that I deprived them of Barney are doing pretty good!
And yeah, the "Friday the 13th" kid is the spawn of an inhuman wife beating *****, so theres a lot more to that story than meets the eye, since they have quit allowing him to watch the scary movies his actions have inmproved a LOT, tho.
The US gov't has their finger in everything, thanks to Tipper Gore and her group of f***wads. Only in the US can you have "This is Land of the free! This is land of freedom in everything!" rammed down your throat and then have them say "Oh, but anything but missionary sex is illegal in this state, and you have to wear a helmet on your bike, and oh yeah this show is being cancelled because some people didn't like it, and don't forget to do this, and this, and this...and Be Christian! But remember this IS LAND OF THE FREE AND WE HAVE FREEDOM!" *puke*

Illkillya

simpsons t-shirts were banned from school in america

Greenbean

Gotta catch em all; gotta catch em all!

Christ sake, its the most horrible abuse of impressionable minds. When I look back now when I was a kid and the amount of stuff I was suckered into thinking was great. Ok I probably would have substituted it for something else; all the marketing made sure it was "He-man", "Transformers" or whatever. As adults we don't come under the same sort of phsycological abuse; if only because our minds are more independent (heh, maybe not as much as we think) - I don't think it should be allowed on children.

Bard

Originally posted by pepperkin:

By the same token, when they get older, 10-12, if I am still living in this %&(*&%(&^ country, I have already told their daddy he is to take them out and teach them how to handle, shoot, and most of all, RESPECT a firearm. Knowledge is the only way to make it not fascinating to them.

Teaching a ten year old how to handle and shoot a gun is never something I'd do... NEVER - no matter what country I lived in. It flies in the face of sanity, reason and goes against nature, and if it seems necessary to do so, then something is certainly seriously wrong with society in general or in the society in which you find yourself... which is why I understand you not wanting to hang around there.

Then again, - I've always lived in Ireland, and specifically the Republic of Ireland, where 5 year olds bringing guns to school is not only not commonplace, it's an utterly ridiculous thought (and long may it stay that way) ;- so while I may not have the experience of growing up with guns being a part of life, I can at least appreciate what it's like on this side of the pond where they're not and appreciate what a difference in life that can make for a child. Having been brought up in a country where guns are generally not necessary, and are certainly not a prominent part of day to day life, having seen kids grow up in such an environment, and having on the other side seen the results of growing up in a violence filled and bullet ridden environment, I'd obviously sooner suggest that anyone with children choose a safer, happier, less violent environment to bring them up in where teaching them such things won't be necessary.

My thoughts on the topic are probably also down to the fact that no matter how much you may make a kid respect firearms, placing one in their young hands and teaching them to shoot it is giving them more of an ability to take the life of another, and that's just wrong - especially at such an early age.

I agree with your choice of TV viewing for the kids. Not only do shows like Barney and Teletubbies make little or no attempt at being educational and informative, but they insult the intelligence of their target audience.

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[This message has been edited by Bard (edited 23-10-2000).]

Shiminay

I definitely think there's something in teaching a child to respect a gun through demonstration - I'm not sure I'd ever do it if I had kids, but I can certainly see the point in doing it.
I think it'd be a good idea not to ban the kid from ever looking at a gun (if you owned one), but rather take the time to answer questions when the child is curious about it (which they will be). This kind of thing makes it seem less special to a kid and will maybe make them less inclined to be impressed with it and want to play with it.

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All the best,

Greenbean

yes, but they might wonder why Daddy is telling them how to use a gun and stuff? Do they want them to use it or something? I'll be a man once I can use a gun!

On the pure and simple - no phsycological thinking - side of things guns are just dangerous - full stop.

My experience with learning to respect guns was very simple: someone had a shotgun and I knew where it was kept at the age of 6 - I went and found it and had a look at it; I'd already vaguely been told to not go near it, it was dangerous - so I didn't touch it, or the bullets. Then an elder came in scolded me and I never thought about it again until this moment 15 years later. Maybe another kid would have reacted in a worse way to the whole situation but I sure as hell know that giving me the gun and empowering me would not have been a more effective way of achieving the same respect for guns.

At the age of 15 at my cousins I held an air rifle, look at a few shotguns, all under supervision - was afraid of the damage they could do - but felt it was the right time for me to learn how a gun works and satisfy the cureosity. It didn't require years of teaching or a drill course in the dangers of guns and how to handle them.

My most recent experience was as a clay pigeon launcher... yea like in one of those 18 course shooting ranges.. I was one of the idiots in the middle of the field, shielded from fire by a tin sheet launching the bloody clay pigeons from a mechanical (deadly) arm. I've plenty of fear of guns now (how someone can shoot a clay pigeon at 100 yards with a shotgun shows you how vunerable we are when someone is skilled).

Bard

Originally posted by Jak:
Respect and knowledge of Firearms, gun ettiquette and so on will not make a child a killer.

Who ever said it would? Not I. That's got more to do with their mentality and upbringing. I said that teaching kids to shoot will give them more of an ability to kill. That's natural. I didn't say it would give them the desire to kill.

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Jak

Teaching a child to Drive ...

Teaching a child to Box ...

Teaching a child to chop wood ...

3 random skills a young child may acquire.
There are many more skills which had I time I might list.

Each could be used to facilitate the killing or harm of another person. It is senseless to limit the abilities of children for fear of what they might do with them.

Instead of taking the fearful approach, teach them the skills - but make sure they know how and when to use them beforehand.

If you question your ability to raise a child safely who would know the difference between how to use and how not to use these skills then by all means restrict their knowledge as you see fit.

JAK.

Hobbes

Two of my younger cousins live on a farm in Ireland.

They have access to guns (rifles) and were shown how they worked and what to do if they saw one and why at a very early age.

They were taught that they were dangerous and not to touch them or point them at people (even if not loaded).

Actually that's one of the first things you should teach anyone is never point a gun at another person loaded or not.

Knowledge of a firearm does not make you a killer.

Treating people as no longer human does. This is the main argument for games killing people. Nothing to do with aim, or skill. It simply boils down to seeing other people as a target.

Some of the games do this quite well. Halflife and the scientists for example.

Or another which actually distressed me to play was Messiah. I took over a security guard and fell too far and he broke his legs. The crying that he's going to die slightly unnerved me.

Others try but don't get it quite right, like Carmeggeon and Postal. Both too comicy to be real.

pepperkin

No, I don't really like the idea of my kids knowing how to shoot either, to be honest. At the same time, kids in this country are getting shot every day. Hell my sister in law was at the school where that 6 yr old shot another 6 yr old in Michigan.
My daughter is 6. That whole thing TERRIFIED me. And I agree that guns are too powerful to play with, they scare me, and I'm not easily frightened...which is why I want me kids to KNOW, to see first hand, what a bullet can do. If they go out on a firing range, and they shoot at a target 500 meters away, and they blow the target to pieces, they'll REMEMBER THAT. They won't be at a friends house, and find a gun, and say "ahh it can't do TOO much damage..." and shoot themselves or each other.
Your statements are totally valid and believe me, I am not thrilled with the idea, but in my mind the knowledge can outweigh the fascination.
I had a friend die like that...Chadd. He was hanging out with a friend, and there was a gun cabinet. Chadd didn't understand guns. He pulled one out, so did his friend, they were playing around...and Jim accidentally shot Chadd in the back of the head because he didn't know the safety was off on the gun...he didn't know guns, so he didn't know how to check.
That story influenced my thinking a LOT on the subject with my kids learning if nothing else how dangerous they can be.
It's a hard decision to make...to teach your kids about guns, what they are, how they work...or to hide it from them and hope they know better....thing is, kids don't know better, as Jim and Chadd proved (they were 19 yrs old). There was a kid running around my neighborhood with his fathers gun and bragging to my 6 yr old that he had it etc.
I would prefer my kids KNOW how to deal with something than trust them to figure it out on their own...much as I hate the idea of one of my babies touching a gun *sigh*.
And on another note..I know guns. I can dismantle, clean, and put together a Walther PPK in record time, I have shot Tommies, Uzis (Semi and full) and I have shot at bottles/cans/whatever. A good friend of mine collected guns, and he taught me everything he could.
That doesn't make me a killer, FAR from it, it only made me realize how easily they can get out of hand, taught me more respect for them than I had previously had. I won't have one in my house.
So while I agree with you in a lot of ways, I also have to feel like my kids NEED to know, so they don't end up like Chadd. If I have my way and move to Ireland (which is all I've wanted all my life...I'm a wanna be, so sue me) then I won't have to worry about it, and I'll be MUCH relieved!

Bard

Just to clarify (AGAIN)- I did not say that knowledge and/or respect of firearms makes you a killer.

What I did say, and I don't hear anyone disagreeing with me, is that knowledge of firearms will increase someonee's ability to kill.

Jak- you have a point, but it has a minor flaw. The purpose of driving, boxing or chopping wood is not to kill something, whereas that is usually the purpose of shooting a gun.

In the Republic of Ireland, it would more likely be seen as an irresponsible act to be actually teaching a 10 year old how to use a deadly weapon such as a revolver, when firstly, we simply don't have the child crime problems seen in the States and secondly handguns are illegal here.

America is a different story, but if you are faced with the options of :

1. bringing your child up in a less violent society where teaching them how to use/dismantle/hold/respect/whatever a gun is utterly pointless as guns don't feature in everyday life - (i.e.: packing up and moving with your kids to a different, more peaceful country)

and:

2. continuing on where you are, bringing your child up in such a society where 5-year-olds can get their hands on handguns and bring them to school, a society where you feel compelled to teach your 10 year old how to use a deadly weapon...

then the choice - if that choice is available to you - is obviously #1.

Not everyone has that choice, of course, and that's where a great amount of difficulty lays. People end up stuck in a country where they'd rather not be, bringing up their fantastic children in a society that doesn't deserve to be in their company, having to teach their kids these things against their own wishes and principles and simultaneously cursing the society/country in which they live for letting things get so bad that they had to teach them these things. C'ést la vie, unfortunately.

I'd like to live in America myself- but while I say that, I do know that I'll come back to Ireland - that I'd only live there for a while - maybe 5 to 10 years tops. I don't know if I'd want to bring up kids there, although - being fair - it's a big country, - it can't all be bad. Ireland's not perfect, but ... well ... to a lot of people, it's damn close! - and it's far from being the worst of them.

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[This message has been edited by Bard (edited 23-10-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Bard (edited 23-10-2000).]

pepperkin

Moving is an option when I can make it work, until then I have to do what I feel is right to keep my kids alive and KNOWING what there is out there.
I would like nothing more than for my fantastic kids to not HAVE to worry about these sorts of issues, but it's not an option right now. Dammit.
I have to agree with Jak...kids will learn how to cause damage no matter what you do...the difference is TEACHING them these skills, or letting them learn on their own, wen it's a fact of life.


BTW, Bard, Tiana and Tristan say HI!

Jak

Respect and knowledge of Firearms, gun ettiquette and so on will not make a child a killer.

Bard

I have to agree with Jak...kids will learn how to cause damage no matter what you do...the difference is TEACHING them these skills, or letting them learn on their own, wen it's a fact of life.

Yeah- I agree. Some kids never learn right from wrong- never learn about morals and ethics and at least I know that yours will and will grow up to be fine examples of the human race... and I know how difficult it is trying to move under those circumstances, believe me... but I won't keep on about it. That's just the way it is...

BTW, Bard, Tiana and Tristan say HI!

Awww... I miss those kids...

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tr1n1ty

Last week my brother in-law was home from the states. In the course of conversation he said that his six year old asked him how he would feel if he and 'mommy' were separated and she was having sex with another man. Just that they had been discussing it amongst a group of her friends (other six year olds) at school.

Fairly heavy topics for a six year old to be talking about. What will they be onto by the time they're ten!

My opinion on guns is that they shouldn't be anywhere near young people and if you must have them - keep them locked up, free of ammunition and have the ammunition stored in an alternative location.

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To Infinity and Beyond!