Beggars

C B

Last night RTE news carried a special report about herion dealers who specifically target homeless people. http://www.rte.ie/news/2000/0920/9news.html Some of this report focused on the limited success of the Gardai in combating this practice. During an interview for the report a detective urged people not to give homeless people money but to give it to charities in stead.
I personnally think this is a fu(king disgrace. I mean kids are starving on the streets and some redneck assh0le thinks its for their own good not to give them money.

What does everybody else think?

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Its not how you fall, but how you land.

Bard

Originally posted by C B:
It's not how you fall but how you land

I agree with that

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Bard
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-me-

[This message has been edited by Bard (edited 21-09-2000).]

Bard

I also more or less agree with the idea that it's essentially wrong to give homeless people money. I generally don't (although I have on occasion) do so, instead opting to pop into a nearby chipper and get something extra to give them, or giving them a sandwich out of my bag. Basically, I'll sooner give them food than money- and unfortunately, more often than not, this is met with a look of disdain and/or contempt. - I guess at times this may be, in the case of kids, because the food is no good to them to bring back to their (occassionally pimping) parents.

I doubt my attitude is reflected in most people you see throughout town these days, though - people who'd sooner mow you over in their car than talk to you, people who don't even contemplate the fact that you're there as they barge their way through the pathways of the city, demonstrating what a pushy, ignorant, fu<ked up society it can be; human vultures, vying for breathing space in packed out sardine-style trains, shunted into the filth of the city centre for yet another drizzley days moaning, coffee-stained, boring stint in an office with walls painted yellow to cheer up the "in-mates", when they so much believe inside their own closed little minds that they would have been better off staying in bed...

and hey!... I'm in a good mood today.

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Bard
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-me-

[This message has been edited by Bard (edited 21-09-2000).]

C B

Hold on there.

One insane rant at a time please!!!

Bard

What? You call that a reply? You can do better than that!

Nyah nyah nyah!!

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Bard
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C B

No its not basically wrong to give homeless people money. If the laudible charities and back-slapping government agencies were doing a good job (instead of lining their greasy pockets) then these people wouldn't be begging. And now people who feel that not enough tax is being given to solve these problems try to give more money there told not to. What a fu(king joke!!!

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Its not how you fall, but how you land.

C B

Is that better??

Bard

Well that's where you and I disagree. Not all homeless people are drunks, drug addicts or put there by someone else (parents for example) to get money, but a large enough number of them are to merit giving them food instead of money or, if you're really nice, bringing them to a homeless shelter (which as we all know are few and far between) or to the SIMON community. Giving them money is, too often unfortunately, giving them the means to continue doing what probably made them homeless in the first place.

Not saying that all homeless people are like that, but I still think giving them food is better than giving them money.

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Bard
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-me-

havok*

also true is that not all beggers are actully homeless. That (Goddamn afaul) fm 104 phone show done a thing on it a few mounths ago. Theres actully ppl who go out and pose as beggers on da streets and come out with over £60 a nite for it.
Very very low ppl indeed:\

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Narf!
Clan Acid
Clan Bio

TwoShedsJackson

As I work in town I have seen the same beggars day in day out for the last ter years. I don't give any of them money - I used to give one guy money who begged near my old place on Dawson Street, dunno why, but I found out a couple of years later from another guy I sometimes saw him hanging around with that he had died of hypothermia whilst sleeping rough

The ones that do get on my tits are the Romanian ones you see around Grafton and Wicklow Street - from what I have seen they are purely on the scrounge. There are three young lads that I see messing with parked bikes and cars, shouting at passers by and generally being little fu<kers - I wouldn't give those ba$tards the time of day.

I don't think giving beggars money is wrong as such, but I do agree that is probably helping contribute to whatever left them on the streets in the first place, in many cases.

As for other people begging as a scam, a girl I knew about ten years ago used to just ask strangers for money on the street when she wanted to go out drinking on a Saturday night - she was a good looking lass so she usually got about fifteen quid in an hour or so which did her for the night.

Jak

Well we all seem to be in agreement here.

Generally I wouldnt give cash to someone begging (though I have made exceptions) - I would rather contribute to a reputable charity or cause, as i believe giving them money (although that is what they and I in that situation would likely prefer) gives them a choice.

They could buy food or save - or they could buy whatever they want .. smokes, beer whatever.

If the money goes to funding a shelter, at least help might be there when they decide to avail of it. Whereas if the money goes into their hands, it may well go on a non necessity.

JAK.

ps- Bit busy to put more thought into this.

C B

If people are begging on the street (and forget this professional begger bullsh1t it is a halftruth aimed at easing guilty consciences)it is showing that the government agencies and charities are not getting the job done.
I would rather help somebody to get what they need than see them suffer (and don't anybody retort with crap about long-term interests unless like BARD they give food or help instead of money)

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Its not how you fall, but how you land.

Hobbes

Originally posted by C B:
And by the way there is a new post on your puzzles in the humour board may I have an answrer please

Not for being a muppet.

Professional beggers that work Dublin do actually exist. They had a report on TV some time back and I remember it well because one of the kids they interviewed I knew lived in Finglas and was picked up every day with a load of others to beg on the street.

If you think everyone on the street is homeless and needs the cash you had better wake up

My comment is not aimed at easing guilty consience. I would actually be more likely to give money to a charity then I would to someone looking for a handout on the street.

To say that giving money to charity is unfair to the homeless is both incorrect and insulting to the people who work in these charities.

I've done fund raising events for a large number of charities and I can tell you now for every 1 begger on the street who may or may not need the cash there is 10 more who would rather die then ask for help. It's those people who need it.

Here's a thought CB. Before you start flamings peoples comments try actually going to somewhere like SIMON or StVP and donating your time (or cash if you can't) and ask them what it is they actually do and have to deal with and you won't be so flippant.

I wouldn't give money to a person on a street because I do not know what they plan to do with that money.


[This message has been edited by Hobbes (edited 21-09-2000).]

C B

Originally posted by Hobbes:
Not for being a muppet.

can you please define muppet and on what basis can I be classified as one?

Originally posted by Hobbes:

Professional beggers that work Dublin do actually exist. They had a report on TV some time back and I remember it well because one of the kids they interviewed I knew lived in Finglas and was picked up every day with a load of others to beg on the street.

I never claimed that "professional" beggers didn't exist (all beggers are professional by definition). What I was taking issue with was the fact that you seemed to present this as a revelation in your first post even though the previous posts all made the same point.

Originally posted by Hobbes:

If you think everyone on the street is homeless and needs the cash you had better wake up

People don't beg as a career choice

Originally posted by Hobbes:

My comment is not aimed at easing guilty consience. I would actually be more likely to give money to a charity then I would to someone looking for a handout on the street.

more likely does this mean that you don't give any money?

Originally posted by Hobbes:

To say that giving money to charity is unfair to the homeless is both incorrect and insulting to the people who work in these charities.

I never claimed that giving money to charities was unfair to the homeless.

Originally posted by Hobbes:

I've done fund raising events for a large number of charities and I can tell you now for every 1 begger on the street who may or may not need the cash there is 10 more who would rather die then ask for help. It's those people who need it.

all homeless people need help. generally those who beg are those who don't go to charities for various reasons (congradulations on your charity work)

Originally posted by Hobbes:

Here's a thought CB. Before you start flamings peoples comments try actually going to somewhere like SIMON or StVP and donating your time (or cash if you can't) and ask them what it is they actually do and have to deal with and you won't be so flippant.

two members of my family work with Focus Ireland (i have donated my time to helping them). I am not being flippant nor have I flamed any posts (please refrain from wild allegation)

Originally posted by Hobbes:

I wouldn't give money to a person on a street because I do not know what they plan to do with that money.

This is your personal choice (and i respect that).
i don't believe that it is in the interest of the homeless in general for a senior gaurd to disuade people from giving them money.



[This message has been edited by C B (edited 21-09-2000).]

WhiteWashMan

got as far as conors reply about romanian beggers and i had to add this in, so if its already posted i apolagise but....
its been proved that those romanian babies are doped up to the eye balls. my girlfriends niece is 2 years old. about the average age of a romanian chld that is hauled about for 12 hours a day by these 'mothers' i cannot imagine caira (the girlfriends niece) staying quiet for that amount of time. not screaming her head of and crying and trying to get into anything else for that matter. in fact, ive never seen a child not do that at that age.
maybe they breed em differently over there, but i dont think so. to dope a baby so that it will remain quiet so they can beg...?
what sort of people would do that to a child. this is the stage where tey learn well, everything they know. and its takn so some romanian family (who are already collecting god knows how much though hand outs and poensions and what not) can have a few more pence. and as for begging at round abouts on the m50...dont start me. id sooner run the bas7ards down...

Bard

can you please define muppet and on what basis can I be classified as one?

I think Hobbes may be alleging that you haven't a clue about the topic in question. (I may be wrong in my interpretation though) I don't necessarily agree with that sentiment, but I disagree with a number of your points, as is my perogative, natch...

As someone who's had to live on the streets (albeit not for very long) before, I know full well that a homeless persons very own lifestyle is not "in their interest"... as that garda suggested perfectly viable and helpful alternatives to giving money to the beggers, - that being giving it to charities that will help the homeless, I disagree that his words are not in their interests. If the homeless would just make more use of the charitable organisations that are set up to come to their aid, they'd be better off. - and when you say, C B, that "people don't beg as a career choice", I'm afraid you are sadly mistaken... i.e.: it's a sad fact that you are mistaken, it would be a better world if you were not. There are many beggers out there - I see them every week, who have taken up that position completely by choice (and a fine packet o' cash they make out of it too).

generally those who beg are those who don't go to charities for various reasons

Does 'utter stupidity' count as one of those reasons? 'cos perhaps it should. Pride aside, if you're homeless and destitute you need HELP.

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Bard
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C B

just because people have a home to go to at the end of the day does not mean they don't need cash. Yes there are some people begging who are less deserving the others (and obviously there may be a few middle class kids begging so they can buy a few pints)
but people do not say, Ummmm.... i'll give up my reasonably well paying job and beg instead. (i.e. its not a career choice)

as too why people don't approach SIMON of FOCUS, it's generally to do with mental problems which is ussually why they are on the streets inthe first place.

Bard i am sorry to here that you spent time on the streets. i don't know the circumstances behind this and i don't know you but you seem to be a intelligent aware individual many homeless people are not for various reasons.

I do acept almost all the points that have been made here and i don't want to argue against them. its just that that gaurds attitude annoyed me. Sorry!!

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Its not how you fall, but how you land.

Hobbes

Calling someone a redneck A*hole because they tell people to give money to charities rather then to someone on the street is offensive. 1 quid is more likely going to find better use going to a charity then to someone who is begging. To say otherwise is an insult to charities out there.

I don't recall anyone else saying that there is a begging industry in ireland (where they don't actually need the money), and you belittle my comment.

>>more likely does this mean that you don't give any money?

If someone was looking for money on the street for themselves, I wouldn't give it. If it was a person collecting for a charity, I would more then likely give it. When I mean more then likely I mean I would have to know the charity first and not just hand over cash to the first person who claims they are collecting.

Fake charities exist just as much as the begging industry. To some it is a career choice.

C B

hobbes,

Originally posted by havok*:
also true is that not all beggers are actully homeless. That (Goddamn afaul) fm 104 phone show done a thing on it a few mounths ago. Theres actully ppl who go out and pose as beggers on da streets and come out with over £60 a nite for it.
Very very low ppl indeed:\

this was two posts before your first. so yes it had already been said.

one pound given to a charity can be wasted in red tape, or a percentage given to the collector, or stolen by the collector (normally schoolkids), or stolen in the office, or used to buy coffee for the staff tea room.

the Forum on Youth Homelessness which recently handed it final report to the E.R.H.A. had a budget in excess of £250,000 and yet none of this money will improve anything for anybody living on the streets. To say that charities (even the best) don't waste some degree of money is foolish in the extreme. But any money given to the homeless either directly or through a charity will have a good effect. yes you are right to say that people who give money should question how the money will be spent. My point is that a senior gaurd will not improve things by going on the main evening news bulliten urging people to walk passed those in need of help.

as too the career choice thing, can you find me reports of individuals with a number of worthwhile options who decide that begging is the way forward for them.

Hobbes

Originally posted by C B:
this was two posts before your first. so yes it had already been said.

and I expanded on it. So that makes it ok to be rude?

So I don't pass someone on the street and give them cash, does that mean I don't pass the next person? and the next person? Where does it stop.

My interpertation of the gardas message was not to give to people on the street but charities instead, and now your claiming it's better not to because the charity will waste money. What a crock of ****.

C B

Originally posted by Hobbes:
and I expanded on it. So that makes it ok to be rude?

to be fair hobbes you didn't really expand on it,
but i apologise if i offended you

Originally posted by Hobbes:

So I don't pass someone on the street and give them cash, does that mean I don't pass the next person? and the next person? Where does it stop.

nobody can do everything. if charities are the best place to give money should i give money to every charity? your just being ridicolous

Originally posted by Hobbes:

My interpertation of the gardas message was not to give to people on the street but
charities instead, and now your claiming it's better not to because the charity will waste money. What a crock of ****.

No i'm not claiming that at all, i'm showing that both methods of giving can be wasteful, but all methods are worthwhile. and that it is not the place of a gaurd to tell people to use one rather than the other.

Bard

I would have thought, myself, that the area of homelessness does come under the remit of law and order and hence is in the porfolio of the Gardaí, so the detective in question is perfectly right to give the Gardaí's stance on the situation. I don't think he was trying to enforce an opinion on the rest of us, just merely expressing it and reccommending a course of action.

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Bard
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-me-

C B

maybe,
but i feel his comments are likely to cause more hardship than solutions
secondly homelessness is hardly simply a question of law and order but this seems to be the mentality behind the comments.
i.e. less money going to homeless people equals less drugs bought equals less crime equals the gardai are doing a great job.
not only does this logic suck its false as junkies without money will mug someone instead.

pat kenny

If you give homeless people money they may spend it on drugs,booze etc.
If you dont they might just steal money or mug people and perhaps end up in the joy where they will do even more drugs.
Give them food and most of them will probably throw it away.
Give them the money let them spend it on whatever they want.
Another reason people give to agencies over beggers on the street is most people dont want to interact with the begger they dont want to have to make eye contact,its sad but true.

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Young men are you listen'en to me.I said young men.......

pat kenny

Hmmmmm I just noticed the irony of my new signiture while reading the final few posts.

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Young men are you listen'en to me.I said young men.......

m1ke

I remember one day this lad came up to me and asked had I got 50p for bus fare, he needed to get the no 13 home .... he was a couple of years older and I just gave him to money to avoid the confrontation.
1 week later the same person comes to me with the same story and again I give him 50p to get him off my back.
A couple of months later the same person asks me for money, I had just came out of a shop, had a £5 in my hand, had no change at all .... I said I had no change and he freaked at me when he saw the fiver, telling me to go into the shop, gave me hassle telling me how he was going to have to walk home .... bollix
These ****s just play whoever they can, never hand out money to beggars because 50% of them are milking you while there's always a lot less genuine ones.

The only time I ever give out money is to avoid a confrontation .... usually up around where I get the bus by the methadone clinic .... when a bunch of junkies come over to me I just give them whatever is in my pockets to get them out of my face.

People who beg get the same social welfare cheque the people who don't beg get. It's different with children but there's diff reason when it comes to children.

Hobbes

Another thing to realise is that professional beggers work Dublin streets as well.

There have been people who ferryed kids into town to beg, then took the cash and drove the kids home (who were not in fact homeless).

I would say give the money to a charity, not to the person.

C B

O.K. Hobbes try reading all the posts and then if you have something new to say join in.

And by the way there is a new post on your puzzles in the humour board may I have an answrer please

[This message has been edited by C B (edited 21-09-2000).]

Shinji

I'm fully in agreement with the statement that the "redneck a$$hole" garda made on this; money given to charities such as the Simon Community, the SVdP or Focus is MUCH better spent than money given to some random person on the street who asks for it. All this crap about red tape and people stealing it to line their own pockets is a crock; YES, charities have some administrative costs, but hell, I'd rather think that money I donated was being spent on the administration of a charity, than that it was going towards someones drug habit, their next drink, or to their pimping parents.