Direct labour or builder??

zara

Myself and husband are in the process of building a house. We have site and at the moment are looking for design of house that we both like, have looked through some books and websites but found nothing as yet. If anyone has any ideas, tips or recommendations I would love to hear them. Want to go for around 2300 sq ft dormer bungalow or two storey, something a little bit different to the norm but obviously something we'd get planning for. If anyone knows any good books/websites could they let me know. Also we're not sure whether to hire a builder or go direct labour. Does it save much money and is it much more hassle. I have taken photos of houses that I like, would a builder give me a rough price from a photo and how much do they charge for quotes. Any recommendations on good builders would be appreciated. Thanks

Victor

zara wrote:

Also we're not sure whether to hire a builder or go direct labour.

My opinion is 15 medium sized problem are together, bigger than one big problem.

zara wrote:

Does it save much money and is it much more hassle.

It is a lot more hassle, sorting insurance, ordering supplies and making sure you have cash for the lads on site for 4.00pm on Friday. It is arguable as to whether you save real money if you time is expensive.

zara wrote:

I have taken photos of houses that I like, would a builder give me a rough price from a photo

Yes he will, but because you are being naive and amateurish he will add 25% and hit you for another 25% in extras.

zara wrote:

and how much do they charge for quotes.

Quotes are free (but note the above), but you could ask a professional to put together a budget (you would have to pay for this). Not being "together" in your approach and asking every builder under the sun to quote, won't help.

zara wrote:

Any recommendations on good builders would be appreciated. Thanks

hahahhahahaha hahhahahhaha :eek:

Farls

Victor has covered most things there for you.

I have some questions though, my sister is going to build a similar type of house soon.

what part of the country are you building in, and whats your budget?

Also is you or your husband handy? ie. can you do any work yourselves?

The houses that you have taken pictures off that you like, why not go upto them and ask the owners if you can have a look around, maybe borrow plans i know a few people who have done this, people are generally nice :rolleyes:

Farlz

yop

Without a doubt direct labour is cheaper than builder, we are building in January and the quote for the builder was 275k to build the house, we will be doing it for 170k ourselves.
BUT do note that you have to handle a lot more work when doing it DL.
Have to get prices, check the work, order the materials, pay each tradesman, it is very time consuming but you will save money.

Also as the lads said yourself or your hubbies really would want to know what you re doing or else you could be screwed over and if he is DIY savy then it will also save you money.

There are a number of house plans books, what we did was bought 2, then took ideas from a number of them a designed it ourselves, be prepared to settle with one design then change it all again!!

I can email our plans to you if you want, it is a 2100sq ft dormer, nothing special to be honest but if it gives you an idea.

Also buy the selfbuild and home design mags, we stole ideas out of them also

gluck

2 Espressi

Looking at plans at the moment, the Century Homes catalog is fairly good!

Farls

The Plan-A-Home Catalogue is very good also. As yop says, pick out one you like then modify it to your needs.

My plan when i'm designing my dream house is too spend a while learning auto-cad and do the plans myself.

Thats just me tho, i would look on my own house as an extension of myself almost, i'd want to be able to look at it and go "i done that, from designing it to building the blocks etc..."

Farlz

Macy

zara wrote:

Also we're not sure whether to hire a builder or go direct labour. Does it save much money and is it much more hassle. I have taken photos of houses that I like, would a builder give me a rough price from a photo and how much do they charge for quotes. Any recommendations on good builders would be appreciated. Thanks

If you have any doubts I would go with a builder. It's just too much money to risk if you're not 100% sure of what you're doing going direct labour. Also all the people are only responsible for their own part of the work, with you having to make sure it's right for the next stage.

I know people that have built both ways, and I chose the builder route as it just seems to much hassle and time was a factor for me (there's no way I could've organised things to move as quickly as the builder has been able).

We put it out to tender, but turned out it was a local who was the best price.

Rough price, €100-150 a square foot would give you an idea of cost.

yop

Farls

It is mighty to know CAD as you can do the drawings up yourself but unless you are qualified neither the planning authority or banks will accept the drawings, I got caught out this way.
I used a package called FloorPlan to design the house, also there were loads of house designs in it already, was not mighty but it did the job.

Farls

I understand the whole being qualified side of things, and more than respect that.

One of my friends is fully qualified to do this though so i would do the plans up rough and he'd polish them off and put 'em through. One of the major benefits i have and am more than thankful for is that all my friends are qualified in different (useful) careers, especially when it comes to building

btw yop, or anyone else for that matter do you know of any good sites with tutorials to cad?

Farlz

yop

Same as Farlz, good to have them sort of mates!

Sorry self taught on CAD, trial and error!

harto

Another point for consideration, is time. Going direct labour can often take twice as long as the builder route. You need to consider where you live or can you live somewhere for this extra time while paying rent plus an increasing build mortgage.

The time factor is also considerably influenced by the subbies way of working. They like to stay "in" with the builders and so you as a one-off will fall dramatically down their priority list if a builder's work comes in. This type of sh&te continuously has a negative effect on any sort of scheduling your are trying to do.

Project management, organising direct labour and supplies etc, can easily require between 15 to 20 hours a week on site. Could you handle fitting this in around your job ? Would you need to take time off ? Could you cope with less salary for reduced work ?

yop

Harto - I would agree with that it does take time but as for it taking longer than a builder I would disagree up to the point that I have 3 mates who are/have just complete DL houses.
In the first case it took 16 weeks, he was totally organised before the project started so therefore knew who he was going get. He built a timber frame
The 2nd is almost complete, is building block but he did not have himself organised at all so it has taken him over 9 months.
The 3rd again is timber frame, is only 7 weeks into the job and he is ready for skimming, plastering done outside, windows, final floor. Again he project managed it well.

From past experiences sub contractors that I have talked to or the lads used these guys don't do any work for the builders, the builders have their own lads.

The 15 to 20 hours a week, I presume you are including Saturday and Sunday.
If not unless the lads are unique the visited their sites after work and it really did not overly impact on their work. But I would agree that it will not be a case of heading off home after work, that you will have to visit the site to check up on the work and also possibly before work to ensure that the supplies are there.

To put it another way, IF you think you can handle organising supplies and will be able to sit on sub contractors and suppliers and put up with their crap then you should consider it.

But if it is a case of taken off work and losing money then this is not the right path to take

zara

Thanks for all the advice guys

Victor

yop wrote:

Without a doubt direct labour is cheaper than builder, we are building in January and the quote for the builder was 275k to build the house, we will be doing it for 170k ourselves.

And who will do your Homebond?

yop

Not doing it

Victor

What if you want to / need to sell later?

What is the mortgage lender saying?

yop

They are not looking for any homebond. Talked to the lads I was on about above there about it and none of them have homebond either.
Do you know self builders who do??

Macy

Victor wrote:

What if you want to / need to sell later?

What is the mortgage lender saying?

We're one of the houses our builder needs to get Homebond (hence the good price), all his work practices, timber frame manufacture etc passed just needs more houses. It was never an issue with the mortgage company at all.

rooferPete

Hi Zara,

Take care if you decide using someone elses plans, all plans drawn by Architects are Copyright, leaving you open to an Architect or designer calling for his / her fees one day.

Most estimates are free, mine (not a house builder) are free to the point similar to Macy's post, a guide cost not a quote, not even a proper estimated costing.

This is one of the biggest purchases you will ever make, FWIW my advice is take your time and the best advice you can find.

Yes you may have to pay for the advice but in the overall scheme of things it should save you money.

Kind Regards,

Peter Crawley,

www.crawleyandsons.com

davidoco

Self Building option
Ask a builder to quote to do foundations, walls and roof.
You do the rest yourself direct labour.

I built using a contractor all the way but three people I know used the same builder (in the south east) to do just the main structure and did the rest themselves direct labour. That way you can have the exact finishes you want and more control over the things that really matter. My contractor blamed people he subcontracted for delays and I couldn’t deal with the subcontractor directly. Whereas if I engaged the subcontractors and they was delaying or not up to scratch I would have just fired them and looked for somebody else to do the job. You don’t have this luxury with a main contractor option because the subbie is probably doing a job for him somewhere else.

Think about it, you can get the electrics, plumbing, fittings, kitchen, painting, plastering and all at exactly what you specify, not a ridiculous allowance which you end of having to add to, just to get for example a decent bathroom suite.

It’s nearly impossible to sit down with a main contractor and specify every little detail that goes into a house and you’ll end up forking out extra money. For example I wanted a certain type of window 10% of total cost of windows extra, bathroom suite 500 euro extra, timber front door 150 euro extra, pump for septic tank 250 euro extra, a decent electric shower 120 euro extra. They allow for the most standard of stuff and want you to top everything up. – this is just my experience.

Macy

davidoco wrote:

It’s nearly impossible to sit down with a main contractor and specify every little detail that goes into a house and you’ll end up forking out extra money. For example I wanted a certain type of window 10% of total cost of windows extra, bathroom suite 500 euro extra, timber front door 150 euro extra, pump for septic tank 250 euro extra, a decent electric shower 120 euro extra. They allow for the most standard of stuff and want you to top everything up. – this is just my experience.

Whilst I wouldn't totally disagree, alot of that can be specified before you start to build. The only thing we're having to pay extra on top of the agreed for is the electrics - but then above the specified is, and was always, between us and the electrician. Bathrooms, showers etc were always to be supplied by us, fitted by him.

We did actually speak to a builder that would do similar to what you're saying, but he only did block built houses and we wanted timber frame.

Victor

rooferPete wrote:

Most estimates are free, mine (not a house builder) are free to the point similar to Macy's post, a guide cost not a quote, not even a proper estimated costing.

Be very careful with this type of behavior - an estimate is a quote legally.

davidoco wrote:

My contractor blamed people he subcontracted for delays and I couldn’t deal with the subcontractor directly.

You either want single point responsibility or your don't. If a subcontractor isn't performing, it is the builder's problem.

davidoco wrote:

Whereas if I engaged the subcontractors and they was delaying or not up to scratch I would have just fired them and looked for somebody else to do the job.

By definition, only a contractor can employ subcontractors, if you employ them, then you have multiple contractors.

davidoco wrote:

It’s nearly impossible to sit down with a main contractor and specify every little detail that goes into a house

Poo. Pick what you want and stick with it or be prepared to pay.

davidoco wrote:

For example I wanted a certain type of window 10% of total cost of windows extra, bathroom suite 500 euro extra, timber front door 150 euro extra, pump for septic tank 250 euro extra, a decent electric shower 120 euro extra. They allow for the most standard of stuff and want you to top everything up.

You got ripped off.

Victor

Macy wrote:

Bathrooms, showers etc were always to be supplied by us, fitted by him.

Be very careful doing this. You are paying retail price, a contractor will be paying wholesale price which will be 15-50% lower and you will likely pay 21% VAT instead of 13.5%.

rooferPete

Hi Victor,

I've been in this business a very long time, my qualifications outstrip many Practicing Architects, plus I have the on site experience

An estimate is just that, an estimated cost, A quotation is just that, You can "Quote" me on that

A Tender is a Quotation Tendered (or offered) usually with a limited time scale.

If a job is put out to tender all parties tendering submit their prices
"Quotations" based on exactly the same bill of quantities or drawings (plans) and schedule of works, that way everyone is tendering on a level playing field.

Personally I stay within my estimates or guide costs unless the scope of the works are changed by the client or unforseen items, it's an honor thing with me.

Kind Regards,

Peter Crawley,

www.crawleyandsons.com

Macy

Victor wrote:

Be very careful doing this. You are paying retail price, a contr

Not sure what was missing off the end, but the builder never included bathroom fittings from his first tender.

Victor

Previous post completed.

rooferPete wrote:

An estimate is just that, an estimated cost, A quotation is just that, You can "Quote" me on that

Both will be considered by a court to be a price for doing the specified work (fuzziness aside).

The correct word you should use in the "don't hold me to this" scenario is budget.

rooferPete

Hi Victor,

Yes the devil is in the detail so long as we understand each other LOL.

Hi Macy,

It's been a long time since I was involved in pricing houses but there was always at least a product code or Provisional Sum where sanitary ware was concerned, maybe he just forgot, I have days like that too LOL.

Macy

rooferPete wrote:

It's been a long time since I was involved in pricing houses but there was always at least a product code or Provisional Sum where sanitary ware was concerned, maybe he just forgot, I have days like that too LOL.

No, it was discussed during the negotiations. We got clarification on everything that was and wasn't included. We were happy enough, as at least its our choice on them, not tied to their supplier. I doubt we're losing out that much price wise, and he was significantly lower than the next nearest tender with all the additions/changes we wanted anyway. The jacks weren't going to be a deal breaker