Inhumanity of the Chinese

Bard

This mail was sent to me and is quite disturbing in its cruelty. I have no way of verifying the truth of this, and can't personally vouch for it's authenticity, but I would recommend NOT visiting the website if you are easily upset by cruelty.

The story goes that today in China 10,000 (ten thousand) bears are kept prisoner for extracting bile from their gall bladders. The bears are kept in a horizontal position, in cages that look rather like coffins. They wear a metal collar and are held down by pressure bars.The bears cannot change their position and remain in this condition of permanent pain for between 15 and 20 years!

The website linked below provides more information and images. There is a campaign running to put pressure on China to stop this practise. To assist, simply email your support to: ramona@unikey.com.br .


For further information visit:
www.geocities.com/Baja/2324/index.html (Click the English version)

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Bard

|home page|scary éire | save a life


[This message has been edited by Bard (edited 24-07-2000).]

TwoShedsJackson

Yeh terrible, but what about the thousands of people executed there every year?? Shot in the back of the head for taking bribes if yer a politician.

Hang on, that gives me an idea.....


P.S. What is this bile used for, pray tell?

Bard

according to that website, linked above it's used 'just to make shampoo, aphrodisiacs and "miraculous" medicines'

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Bard

|home page|scary éire

Blitzkrieger

You hear about these causes all the time. Famine in Somalia, third world debt seems to be popular at the moment, and now bears in China. You know what - I don't give a ****. I read about that this morning then I went to back to work for a while, went to the movies - basically got on with my day. The popcorn could have been flavored with the bile from those self-same bears - I D-O-N-T C-A-R-E.

A freind of mine was approached by three Romanians recently. They asked him for money but he only had a fiver on him so they beat the **** out of him and he ended up in hospital. They probably would have beaten him up anyway. Here's a novel solution to the problem of assylum seekers - burn them all alive. They'll **** off then.
All these people entering the country by dishonest means can only be dishonest people. **** 'em. I don't care what miserable little country they're from or what happens to them there - I have my own problems. They might not be as big as the assylum seekers' but (u guessed it) I D-O-N-T C-A-R-E.

The only possible reason I can think of to help them is that "1st they came for the Communists.....etc, etc.... then they came for me, and there was no1 left to speak up for me" crap. Noones ever going to come for us.
**** them - we don't owe them anything.

TwoShedsJackson

A flame-worthy post if ever there was one, but retarded as it may be, I guess it's a viewpoint.

Originally posted by Blitzkrieger:
Noones ever going to come for us.

There is no way you can say that with 100% certainty - doubtless that was said in many a country in the years before it became a police state.

As for being beaten up by Romanians (did he ask them where they were from btw?) he could just as easily been beaten up by Irish scummers, probably on even less pretext.

Also, Blitzkrieger, some of these asylum seekers face torture and/or death in their own country - do you honestly think they care whether or not Y-O-U-D-O-N-T-C-A-R-E???

Obviously there are scam merchants among them, but there are legitimate causes there too.

Blitzkrieger

hehe I'm not saying there isn't honest cases - I'm saying I D-O-N-T C-A-R-E.

Isn't our country ****ed up enough already. I never give money to foreign charity's - not as long as charities here at home don't have enough. Maybe someday when we live in a eutopia (u can hear the disbelief) I'll give all my money to foreign charities.

God only knows if they were Romanian - but I'd say he could tell if they were Irish

Shiminay

We were the very country 100+ years ago that spread out through-out the world. The Irish to have a lot to be thankful for. We got treated like sh1t in most countries, but eventually became an accepted part of eveyone's culture. It may come to be the same over here in several year with the current influx of asylum seekers.

However, I agree with one statement Blitz made and that was if an Irish and a foreign charity needed money, I'd give to the Irish. It's not that I don't care about others, but I do think we should help our own first.

And as for the bears - disturbing. Very disturbing.

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All the best,

Dav
@B^)
My page of stuff

BossArky

I like bears, I have one called Igor and he replaced my other one that was kidnapped, that was Ivan.

Excelsior

i'd have pulled blitzkrieger's post. the humanities board is meant to be a little better than the rest in terms of writing quality.
*this bit wasn't relevant.*

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It is so lonely here in my indecipherable tower of speech impedimency

[This message has been edited by Excelsior (edited 25-07-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Excelsior (edited 25-07-2000).]

Jak

The world is full of tragedies.

Unfortunately most of us have to be selective with what we care about. Personally I have only 3 charities I give money to. Sports for Deaf kids, Sports for blind kids and the RNLI.

This doesn't mean that I am completely insensitive to other troubles in the world, but we all have lives to get on with and it does nobody any good to spend your life pitying and crying for every problem the world faces.

As far as I'm concerned, if everyone cares a little about a couple of things, everything should be covered.

As for the Romanian comments. I have no problem with legit entries into this country. However what is happening with many asylum seekers at the moment is a cause for great concern. They are coming into the country illegally and without any support, this means they are headed straight for the streets.

This leads to begging (sometimes aggressively) and generally will lead to deep set divisions between indigenous and foreign folk. Once again, its terrible what some of them face, but we cannot help everyone. I believe we should allow legal entries, help them merge successfully into society (by earning money - Money is a great leveller) and then see how its all going.

A flood of unsupported illegal immigrants will lead to ghettoes and violence in the end.

As for the Irish having gone abroad and so forth. We do not owe the world a debt.
The Irish that went abroad mostly found jobs. They played a strong part (along with many other peoples) in building the infrastructure and economies of other countries - such as the United States and Australia.

Those were very different times. When the two countries mentioned above were in fact in great need of cheap hardworking labourers - they found it in the Irish, Easter Europeans and so on.

Final comment - As for the beggars who beat up Blitz's friend - **** em - String em up and beat them to death (here ends my rational beliefs) whatever their nationality.

JAK



[This message has been edited by Jak (edited 25-07-2000).]

TwoShedsJackson

Originally posted by Excelsior:
i'd have pulled blitzkrieger's post. the humanities board is meant to be a little better than the rest in terms of writing quality.
it saddens me to hear you say you don't care.

Blitzkrieger wasn't being abusive, just ignorant. As for writing quality he may be inarticulate but he has a right to his opinion, however bigoted.

Excelsior

The opinion should be aired. But it shouldn't be in such abusive or confrontational language. That way we can talk about it. Instead of insulting each other.

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It is so lonely here in my indecipherable tower of speech impedimency

DeVore

Maybe Blitz is just being honest. I dunno if he's ADVOCATING his stance or just declaring it. Theres a big difference.

To be honest, most people D-O-N-T-C-A-R-E but many people wring their hands and decry everything from chinese bears (what about the Falun Dafa, Tianamen (sp?) Square etc? what about the US restoring Most Favoured Trading status to China the very next year... pff who cares right?) to the plight of penguins covered with oil.

The truth is most people couldnt give a **** and get defensive when forced to confront it. Stories of immigrant violence are trotted out to make it self-justifiable to walk past them when they are in the gutter. Thats ok, cos we dont like them right?
Its ok for all of them to suffer because some mate of a mate got a kicking.

Fact remains, most of us couldnt give a **** about any of the tragedies around the world and are far more likely to spend 150 notes on a new video card for those *extra* ...*few* ... *fps* then donate it to charity.

Me? I'm the same just like most of us, I dont like it and I dont advocate it but if you dont acknowledge it you are fooling yourself.

Blitz puts it in an ugly fashion, and I'm not sure if he IS advocating it (in which case I highly disagree), but its an ugly truth that most people only give to charity to make themselves feel better.

Tom.

Blitzkrieger

inarticulate? ignorant? *******s! OM

I dunno - some people seem to have gotten the point of the posts.

I think Excelsior has something against me personally. It seems almost every time he sees a post by me he makes a negative comment without trying to justify why he is making it.



[This message has been edited by Blitzkrieger (edited 25-07-2000).]

TwoShedsJackson

Possibly something like he finds your posts cretinous in the extreme??

Excelsior

i recall, central park in fall, you tore your dress, what a mess, i confess.

i'm sorry, i'm just singing along to myself, minding my own business.

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It is so lonely here in my indecipherable tower of speech impedimency

tHE vAGGABOND

listen the fact is and will never change

China has quite a few people living in it. More than the population of mullingar infact. Every large company worth its salt has always, and will always try their best to trade with them. There are 3 odd million people in Ireland and X Billion in China. from the business person in me it makes sense.

A good example is Shell oil, pre cultural revolution Shell had offices allover china and had deals in place to export oil. They were staffed by a mix of nationals and US and brits. Then Mao and his buddies came to power and we had the fun and games of the great leap foward which ****ed them up big time. Then the cultural revolution, where millions died, one of the things of the revolutionary guard was to kill all foreigners, as they were spies and they were generally bad people (it does sound ****ed up does'ent it - but almost a billion ppl swallowed it lock stock and barrel) So shell lost all their plants and all their staff 'disappeared' and the still they tried like hell to get back into China, without a second thought.

Its commerce, plain and simple!

China is ****ed up, but works on a different belief system then we do, as Amazon tribes do, as the africans do, sh1t as muslims do. We might hate it and think it woefull, but its their system and there is not a lot we can do about it!

Vagga
(reader of too much history!)

m1ke

An aspect of society today that really gets on my nerves is revealed throughout Blitzkriegers post. The I DONT CARE attitude. For those that have this I DONT CARE attitude it offers a clear conscience and and a mind set that if it continues will become rigid, unchanged and biased - in the future a person with this mindset will in my opinion be likely to end up the equivlant of someone who hates change, someone who is bigotted.

The reason why this kind of attitude eats at the very society we live in - and the irony is the same attitude expresses why examples like refugees eat at our society is that people today believe they have a god given right to live in Ireland -> in peace, stability, with food & shelter, protection, employment and all the basic human rights that we take so forgranted.

A vast majority of the citizens of this country believe that by being born they have the right to avail of these things ... and yes they do, but it should change, change in the way that instead of the I DONT CARE because i'm fine attitude - the idea that to be a citizen you have to adopt certain responsibilities, give back and not just constantly take. We live in a very privilaged part of the world and if we all just keep taking from each other what goes around will come around.

I believe that once we all take on the responsibilities we owe to society... we can all contribute to improving the environment we live in, socially, enconomically, structurally - because I believe as citizens we should be obliged to owe something back.

Asylum seekers, that come from Countries that are void of the basic rights we all enjoy, facing death/torture and punishment for being born in parts of the earth that are corrupt and that disregard human life and look on it as an exploitable asset have every right to seek asylum here. Maybe they do want the same rights that we have - and what the **** is wrong with that...

Jak

M1ke,

I agree that we all have some responsibilities. But what would you consider to be an average individuals responsibilities?

Money? If so how much? And to who?
Who should be left out? Who organises things so all those deserving get what they need?

In the end of the day, caring for those less priveleged than ourselves will boil down to monetary assistance. Words they can't hear will do little for them.

In addition though, I concede that we are from a wealthier and perhaps more priveleged country here than some others. However this provides the individual with opportunity (and better support for those who need help) - it does not guarantee wealth and happiness though.

Many of the successful individuals in this country work very hard for what they get - Do these people then have a greater responsibilty and owe more money to those less fortunate?

JAK.

ps- As I said I give to 2 charities. The Deaf and Blind - probably as Dev said to make me feel good ... I never thought too much about the why .. I just thought it seemed a nice idea to get those kids into sport.

And the RNLI ... well I give to them cause they get very little support, have saved 1 memeber of my family and have helped me back to shore more than once.

JAK.

m1ke

In relation to charities, donating etc..

It's being involved, it's doing what you can. Be involved in policitics, the environment and organisations that you believe stand for the right things. Such as Amnesty International, ISPCC etc...
Look at your own social environment... how can you improve the area you live in ? can you pickup some littler, get the drugs off the street, talk to the auld one beside u, cut her grass for her, make the world a little nicer to live in ?
It's about doing what you can, and people really can do good and be very influential when they want.
It's improving the world around you that counts, and you just have to do a little, you don't have to be heavily involved ... just to actively take part in things, be concious of world events and when you see something that you KNOW YOU can do something about... then do it.
A lot of people find monetary assistance the easiest way to deal with things... it all counts, but it should really be more then monetary.

Bard posted about the cruel situation ten thousand bears are facing in China, i'm going to email them my support - because it's what I can do...

Jak

You're right.

The best people can do is be a good person.

I try to be.

As individuals many of us likely help others a great deal, which all goes to make the world better.

However, I have no time for people who infer that I have some duty to the world. I do certain things and I make certain contributions - all these things will be my own choice. If I choose to ration my time or money to certain causes then that is my choice - The bear issue is tragic, but there are likely a hundred similar tragedies ... should we not write letters to them all?

Individuals can make a difference - they do not however make all the difference. If i choose to help someone else instead of writing an email to the Bears - does this mean I condone their suffering? Does this mean I am bad for not devoting my time to them?

As an aside, I do not like people who seek to publicise their own great deeds or who shame others for not being so openly generous ... e.g Walking by a beggar or not donating to a charity - things I do often and sometimes people will judge you negatively for it.

We all have lives to live - we cannot solve every problem or help every unfortunate ...

Make some choices, help a few, be a good person ... but you don't owe the world a debt of gratitude for who or where you are.
Your life is your own.

JAK.

ps- How exactly do you think the email will help? I don't mean this in a condescending way .. but seriously ... short of going over and freeing them yourselves, I would be (pleasantly) surprised to see any government exert pressure upon the Chinese over this ... with any result.

TwoShedsJackson

Is there any oil in them bears?? the US might help out if there is, otherwise i reckon they're fu<ked

Blitzkrieger

lol nice 1 Castor

"cretinous in the extreme??" - now I'm upset

Since there seems to be a bit of interest in the assylum seekers bit -

How many of them do you think are real? How many thousands of people show up in Waterford docks every year to claim asylum and benefits? There's classes held in Africa about how to sign up for the most amount of benefits ffs! Those ****ers are laughing at us and people like M1ke (no offense, or as little as possible) are letting them get away with it.

I'd love to share your view where everybody helps everyone else - but the world dosn't work that way.

TwoShedsJackson

No it doesn't at the moment - and it never will if people like you can't change your attitudes.

As for your first post being cretinous Blitzkrieger - it was, it makes you sound like a bigoted a$$hole, read it again from an independent's viewpoint if you don't beleive me.

m1ke made some good points very well in his posts, and he did them in a reasonable and intelligent manner, which is a lot more than can be said for your 'i'm the centre of the world, I don't care and I don't care who does' approach.

As to the 'thousands' of asylum seekers appearing in Waterford every year, Ireland currently has 12,000 asylum seekers/immigrants/refugees, mostly entered over the last five years or so. btw there are more than 12,000 Irish people working in Munich alone, never mind the rest of the world.

Jak

There is a world of difference between people working in another country and people exploiting a country's benefit system.

Hobbes

last I heard there is a serious shortage for people for work? HR places are even canvassing the US.

Excelsior

There's classes held in Africa about how to sign up for the most amount of benefits ffs!

eh, where in africa. i mean if they're held in a pub in lagos does that mean everyone comes. like from all around africa? to learn how to con us paddies? come on- this has the air of the ridiculous about it.

"Those ****ers are laughing at us and people like M1ke are letting them get away with it."

count me in on that too. sure we give them the good life. neglecting to provide them with the basic human right of employment opportunities? where is the logic in supporting the "recently arrived" and preventing them from working. the reason they do this is so that blitz and others (jackie healy rae's crowd) will see them getting money for nothing and let that bigoted bile rise.

and the fact that you refer to africans as "fu<kers" should shame you.

mike- i want to hug you. your views are great. i endorse this product and or event. we don't help everyone. we don't guilt-trip people who don't help everyone. but people should care. and people should appreciate how lucky they are to be in the minority of people on this planet who are living in a rich country. "nationalism is the idea that your country is the best by right of the fact taht you were born there" that is one of my favourite quotes. it just brings out the silliness of boundaries. it makes no difference if these people are coming here illegally to me- as long as i uphold a moral standard in my treatment of them. there are jobs available for them, and after that it shouldn't be long before even john o'donaghue has to share his cabinet table with a "recent arrival"

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It is so lonely here in my indecipherable tower of speech impedimency

[This message has been edited by Excelsior (edited 27-07-2000).]

Jak

Caring does not - unfortunately - make any difference unless it is backed up with an action of some sort.

Shutting down all boundaries and living as a united world will not happen. Too many people have too much to lose .. .and no it's not just because of attitudes.

Some people in their desire to be wonderful and kind forget to be patient. The world will not change overnight ... and trying to do so is dangerous in the extreme.

Often Idealists are narrow minded in the extreme, and fail to accept other considerations.

Yes - We should allow in Asylum seekers.
Yes- They deserve a chance.
Yes - I hope they can be successfully integrated.

But opening the boundaries to allow in a flood of immigrants without any structure or support for them will lead to greater problems than currently exist.

There are jobs in this country, but can the asylum seekers fill them? Without support or assitance, the only jobs they could take up would be menial and poorly paid ... will this help their integration if all immigrants are either on minimum wage or on the street? Where will they all be housed?
Perhaps you could offer one a place on your floor? Or perhaps we should oblige hoteliers to take them all for a year or so until we can provide them with housing. We can always ask the current homeless to wait a while longer.

JAK.

ps- Again I ask, how will the email change anything?

Blitzkrieger

I supose it does look a bit simple mined - but the fact is I was trying to get across a simple point : I've heard all about the asylum seekers, what happens to them in their countries, what we can do to help them, how some people are abusing the system, pro, con, pro, con, etc, etc,.

After all this I find I don't care. Pretty simple point. I don't care. I've heard all the view-points, and I've made up my mind. Most people can't accept that after hearing all the arguments someone would still take a stand different from there own. They'll call me ignorant, cretinous, god knows what. I'm tempted to put a I don't care here too .

Jak makes some ecellent points above and is probably the sanest among us. Since we live in a democratic society (outside the boards ), his view is the middle ground that I would support.

Blitzkrieger

Oh - yeah, and I refer to the con-men as ****ers, not the african's. Jesus, Excelsior - for someone who's trying to paint me a moron you should try to read the text.

Excelsior

you'll paint yourself as the moron. i merely am trying to put across the point of view i and a lot of people out there hold.
this nation loves to hide behind psuedo-r****m
fill in the blanks.

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It is so lonely here in my indecipherable tower of speech impedimency

Jak

What exactly is Pseudo-Racism?

A PC angry term used by Pseudo-intellects?

JAK.

ps- What good will the mail do?
ps- Where will we house them?

C B

what do you mean when you say psuedo-racists?

are you implying that the people who profess to be racist are only jumping on the bandwagon? this is highly unlikely as racism is hardly a popular mindset (even if it is prevelant).

Or perhaps you are unsure of the correct usage of the word psuedo. in this case why are you calling other people morons.

If you believe some form of latent racism is prevalent in Ireland why do you not attempt to confront it rather than disparage it.

Methinks you prefer to remain in your ivory tower with a serene feeling of self-perfection rather than tackle any of the issues.

[This message has been edited by C B (edited 28-07-2000).]

Blitzkrieger

I don't know where you got the idea that I'm racist - I've been displaying prejudices and some people would say that's the same thing but it's not. I'm not even going to explain myself cos I don't have time.

I'm getting close to a flame war with Excelsior so I'm going to quit coming back to this thread too.

Greenbean

Blitzkrieger acknowledges what he is, a much bigger step than alot of people are prepared to make. He may have the siege mentality towards immigrants but hes still prepared to acknowledge he doesn't give a ****. Blitzkrieger is much more likely to come to terms with the situation and find some way to live with it than people who immediately reply in what they think is a popular way. This is about the humanities not your ability to pander to the populus.

Take a look around London, 1 in 3 people in many parts of the city are "native" the rest are multicultural. In general it seems to be accepted and working. This was quite a shock to me - I had assumed that the more multicultural a city became the more aggressive the atmosphere. It may have taken a long time but there seems to be an ability to just take it.

Cultural acceptance is important, on both sides. If assylum seekers don't look to adapt or respect Irish culture and if irish people dont' accept the existance of others things get fcuked up. The speed at which refugees arrive can only make these divisions arise quicker - the government needs to get its ass into gear. A controlled steady influx and acceptance is so important.

Personally I used to give a **** when a kid ran into piza hut looking for food, and when a beggar was on the street, but in the end I'm only one person - I'm poor myself for that matter, I don't have any money to drink with since I'm living in dublin. I don't even feel like helping most of the time - what if the little old lady turns around and attacks you when you try to help her? It happens in dublin. So I say I can only help if the person really needs it, not where I think they might need it. I walk past beggars and I don't give food anymore, I just look after anyone I know - its the best you can do.

Shinji

Greenbean -

I know exactly where you're coming from there. I've seen some disturbing stuff in the city centre from time to time regarding beggars and whatnot, but I won't give money to them; I far prefer to give the money to the Simon Community or some such.

Not to mention, of course, the fact that no matter how pitiful a beggar may seem, or how genuine, you still never know when he's going to pull a syringe on you - as happened to a good friend of mine last week, when in attempting to give a couple of quid to some sorry looking wretch, he got close enough to be grabbed and have a dirty syringe shoved against his face. Nice.

As for refugees... Ack. It's a tricky one. The more I see of the romanians the less time I have for them, since they all seem to be spectacularly lazy and generally a pain in the ass. The prejudice against them in their own country is based on this stereotype of them - and they seem all too keen to live up to it here as well.

I believe that if you come to a country, you must have something positive to offer to that country, even if it's just working hard in unskilled labour. The Irish abroad were noted for being exceptionally hard workers; the refugees we see now, work permits or no, seem unprepared to do much of anything.

Ja,
Rob

Shinji

m1ke,

Check percentages. Of those refugees who have been given work permits, the percentage who are actually working is low, particularly among the Romanians - most of whom have never done an honest days work in their lives. The likes of the Nigerians are different, they come from a culture of people who work bloody hard and have no objection to working and making some kind of contribution.

This is typical assumption you're making here. A few refugees apply for work in a building site, and you automatically assume that they're all keen and eager to work, but the figures show this not to be the case.

We have enough useless slackers in this country without importing more. We need to look at ways to make our social welfare system harsher on our own layabouts; then perhaps Ireland will look less attractive to refugees who only want to milk our dole payments, and the problem will be somewhat solved from the inside.

As for myself, I've never spent a day unemployed, never drawn a social welfare benefit of any description, and I've done my fair share of manual labour - enough to know that I never want to be in a position where I have to do so again. But, if it were a building site or the dole, I'd rather work for my money thanks.

Ja,
Rob

m1ke

Shinji - in all fairness what a load of ****e. Every time i've been on a building site in the last 3 months there's been refugees arriving nearly everyday looking for work. After talking to contractors throughout Dublin just in general chit chat the overall position they have is that they'd ****in love to have some refugees onboard because they've hungry for work... but they just can't be employeed without permits.
In the coming months we better see some sort of legislation to improve the situation with granting refugees work permits because then a lot of peoples attitudes would be changed... a lot of these people are prepared to put in a long back breaking day of work to earn their wage ... which is more then i'd say you've done yourself

m1ke

also upon reading various posts concerning donating, helping etc...

It's very easy to dismiss something because you don't like it, isn't it ? And at the heart of things it's just too much hassle. Oh well I suppose mindsets will change one day.

Gamblor

12,000 Refugess .. yes .. well they are the registered ones .... there are a lot more than that i ireland ... and it is true to say that our welfare system is EASY, it pays more than most and doesn't force you to get a job ... i'm just sick to death of people begging in the streets or knocking on my door looking for a hand out, you earn what you get ( well that's what i think) I was on the dole for 6 months afer i left school .. that was 6 years ago .. i would not want to go back to it. I don't like the idea of people getting a free ride off of the money i earn. sure noone likes taxs, but they are needed. Taxs should be put back in to the community , upgrading our schools, collagfes and sofort, not letting forgin layabouts ( not ness. refuges) ( sorry but spelling not a strong point with me today) suck us dry. But i do belive that we chould look after our won first. I know the irish are all over the globe, but if we had of looked after ourselves firtst that wouldn't of happened !!
2 worngs don't make a right, i know this. but Blitz some of what u said i agree with, not all nore some of the actions that where implyed, however something has to be done to clean up what is fast becoming the begging capital of Europe !!

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***** Feel my Evil Neon Claws *****

Jak

There still has not been a reply to the questions asked.

Excelsior

you go away for a weekend and look what happens...
i'm not coming back here again blitz either. if i feel a need to deal with this i'll do it on challenge-ie.
this post however is to give my support to mike. fair play to you. you have your head screwed on on this issue.

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It is so lonely here in my indecipherable tower of speech impedimency

_CreeD_

My my, I never really looked at this board before. Pretty interesting.

So, to stir things a little more, here's my response to the bits I've managed to keep in my beleagured bonce.

Blitz - At least your honest. You're a bigot, but you're an honest one.


Most of the bad points that have been brought up here are true.....About everyone in this country.
Sure we have loads of refugees on the dole, but how many Irish are there with them? In a time when we have to import people to work, when our economy is booming and 1 in 5 shops in town have Help-Wanted posters in the windows - we still have a long Dole Q.

A friend of mine owns a farm. He's 'imported', ie. sponsored, a couple of latvians to work for him. Why? Not to save money, they get paid the same as his other staff. Simply because he can't get Irish people to work on the land. We've become a nation of selfish, lazy snobs.
(And Shinji, they work their asses off, they do every bit of overtime they can to help there families back home - I think you, like most of us, tend to notice the bad ones that stand out. Just how do you know that guy unobtrusiely doing a good job is Irish or not? If you see a bad one he stands out, if he's obviously foreign he stands out more - pretty soon the only ones standing out in your mind are the foreign-bad ones. And from such is ignorant sterotyping born).


No one, Immigrant or national has a RIGHT to aid. It's a dog-eat-dog world, where you have a right to what you earn.
Any help given, whether to charities or through social services/dole etc. is a gift. It shouldn't be expected by anyone.
We have a high standard of living, even our poverty-line gives you a roof over your head, food, money for recreation (Not much but some). So we tend to forget the basics of life and how it really works.
Come visit Angola sometime, it'll open your eyes - the people here don't expect aid from anyone, because they know and understand life is brutal. Wrap it up in cotton wool if you like, but you have a right to what you fight for, what you work for, and nothing else. And for all the **** they do to each other, for all the mess this place is (And about 2/3 of Africa) that realisation on their part gives them a nobility of purpose most of us have lost.


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